Smartest baseball player ever?

[cup2006sensrule]

On the field I mean.

I don't really have a lot to add except to propose Cobb, Maddux and Williams as possibilities.

What do you guys think?

[Minstrel]

Cal Ripken Jr. was often credited with offsetting lack of athletic range (compared to smaller, quicker shortstops) by using superior positioning, based on the pitcher and hitter.

If his positioning was really so good, he rates as quite a smart ballplayer.

[TRfromBR]

On the field I mean.

I don't really have a lot to add except to propose Cobb, Maddux and Williams as possibilities.

What do you guys think?

I think Ruth may have said Hal Chase was the smartest he ever saw. He certainly said he was the best and smartest first baseman he ever saw. Williams said Cobb & Greenberg were the smartest he ever knew.

John Montgomery Ward, John McGraw, & Christy Mathewson are some of the other early guys. Billy Martin was a very bright ballplayer & manager. Many dozens of others. The game draws alot of bright people.

[Los Bravos]

I definitely like your choices.

If you mention Greg, Tom Glavine is right there with him and Tom Seaver and Tony Gwynn have to factor in, as well. If you want to go back a ways (and you did mention the brilliant, if demonic, Cobb), Christy Mathewson is a viable possibility.

[mwb]

Good topic.

I agree with your selections.

Ichiro, Tony Gwynn, Barry Bonds, Derek Jeter, Chase Utley, Rickey Henderson.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Reggie Jackson, rumored to have a 160 IQ...genius level

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Joe Morgan and Willie Mays come to mind.

[ReignInBlood]

From what I've heard, definitely Ty Cobb. He seemed to take advantage of every opportunity in a blink of an eye.

[iPod]

Joe Morgan and Willie Mays come to mind.

I have a hard time believing there was a better student of the game than Willie Mays. People tend to think of exhuberance and joy and all those sorts of things when they think of Mays, but I would argue his real defining characteristic was his baseball IQ. Uncanny.

[RubeBaker]

My all-time pick would have to be the only guy to get 3,000 strikeouts without even trying, Greg Maddux.

Look at some of the stories told about him (this is off wikipedia):

It seems like he's inside your mind with you. When he knows you're not going to swing, he throws a straight one. He sees into the future. It's like he has a crystal ball hidden inside his glove. -Wade Boggs

Braves catcher Eddie Perez tells the story of Maddux intentionally allowing a home run to the Astros' Jeff Bagwell, in anticipation of facing Bagwell in the playoffs months later. Maddux felt Bagwell would instinctively be looking for the same pitch again, which Maddux would then refuse to throw.

On another occasion while sitting on the bench, Maddux once told his teammates, "Watch this, we might need to call an ambulance for the first base coach." The batter, Los Angeles' Jose Hernandez drove the next pitch into the chest of the Dodgers' first base coach. Maddux had noticed that Hernandez, who'd been pitched inside by Braves pitching during the series, had shifted his batting stance slightly.


I remember an interview several years ago where a reporter noted that Maddux was throwing the vast majority of his pitches from the stretch during practice. When he asked Maddux about this, he said something to the effect of, "How often do you pitch when there aren't runners on base?"

Really, truly brilliant stuff.

[csh19792001]

Smartest baseball player ever? In terms of baseball acumen and knowledge, it's Ty Cobb, far and away. Honorable mentions to Eddie Colllins and Jackie Robinson, who are the only ones remotely close.

References:

What Contemporaries Had To Say About Cobb

Cobb's Supporters As The Greatest Player Who Ever Lived

The Best Ty Cobb Biography

Peach: Ty Cobb In His Time And Ours

The Ty Cobb Scrapbook: An Illustrated Chronology of Significant Dates in the 24-Year Career of the Fabled Georgia Peach--Over 800 Games From 1905-1928

The most intelligent and erudite baseball player ever away from the diamond was almost certainly Moe Berg.

The Catcher Was a Spy: The Mysterious Life of Moe Berg

[Calif_Eagle]

I like a whole category of players not being a lot talked about, those who went on to become great managers and GM's. These are men who might have even had more "on the field smarts" than did many of the superstars previously mentioned but who largely didnt have the physical abilities to necessarily capitalize on their "field savvy" in the same a Cobb or a Williams could. I am thinking of men (who were all MLB players) like Branch Rickey, Bill McKechnie, Billy Bean, Billy Martin, Dick Williams, Connie Mack, John McGraw and even Joe McCarthy, (who was a minor league player.) Perhaps all going in this direction does is beg the question of who is the smartest manager &/or GM, & in doing so evades the purpose of the thread. But in my view Branch Rickey probably had more field smarts than anyone who ever played the game and reached MLB. Joe McCarthy probably had more than anyone else who played in the minors but never reached MLB, with Earl Weaver "way up there" too. I would choose Ty Cobb in respecting the spirit of what it seems the thread intended though.

[csh19792001]

Braves catcher Eddie Perez tells the story of Maddux intentionally allowing a home run to the Astros' Jeff Bagwell, in anticipation of facing Bagwell in the playoffs months later. Maddux felt Bagwell would instinctively be looking for the same pitch again, which Maddux would then refuse to throw.

Regarding this exact topic....I believe George Will was the progenitor of this canard about Maddux and Bagwell. I read this awhile back in the SABR Baseball Research Journal. Fortunately Cyril Morong put it online for all non SABR members to peruse.

Has Greg Maddux employed the “Bagwell gambit” in his career?

This is not to take anything away from Maddux, who is a cerebral throwback and one of the best artists I've seen.

He could also be the best pitcher who ever lived.


People often cite Robin Roberts' 505 career homeruns allowed as some kind of branding that he was not a truly great pitcher. But really, this shows that he was A) not going to give hitters a free pass and B) willing to give up meaningless homeruns when the decision of the game was not in the balance. Prior to this year, A-Rod was the king of meaningless homeruns for the Yankees, usually teeing off when the opposing pitcher was certainly not bearing down 100% and was trying to finish the inning. 8th inning against Tampa Bay, score 8-2....

The overarching premise is that all runs are not created equal. Situations dictate pitcher strategy more than those who focus on ex post facto numbers are cognizant of. This is the folly of looking at, say, Roberts' total home runs allowed and presuming it to be a glaring weakness on his part.

[RubeBaker]

Ok, one last post on this. I should clarify, I don't think this truly happened that way (after all, no ones that smart to, 'he'll definitely hit this for a homer'). But I think there is some truth to it.

It says Maddux was anticipating a playoff game, which means they Astro may not have neccessarily made the playoffs. So who knows which homer Perez was talking about.

While Maddux did have a remarkable long term memory, I agree that Bagwell wouldnt remember. But, if you are facing Maddux in a playoff series, I would imagine there would be a lot of video tape study involved, especially in the at-bats where you were successful against him. I don't think Maddux just decided to let him homer, but I wouldn't put it past him to change his style to keep Bagwell guessing.

It's more likely that Perez said this tongue-in-cheek, as a mock excuse for how the great Maddux could possibly give up a homer.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Does "smartest" mean in terms of baseball or general intelligence as a person? Moe Berg was pretty sharp for instance.

I remember a story about Kenny Rogers when he was with the Rangers his first time around. The team was having a meeting and they were having some argument over something. Rogers, wanting to claim the superior position, got and said that he knew what he was talking about because he had the highest IQ on the team (supposedly 150-160). Someone in the back shouted back, "Yeah, you got the highest ERA in the American League, too!"

[TRfromBR]

I remember a story about Kenny Rogers when he was with the Rangers his first time around. The team was having a meeting and they were having some argument over something. Rogers, wanting to claim the superior position, got and said that he knew what he was talking about because he had the highest IQ on the team (supposedly 150-160). Someone in the back shouted back, "Yeah, you got the highest ERA in the American League, too!"

Where the hell was that IQ when he walked Andruw Jones, or are we talking about Dolly's sidekick. "You Picked a Fine Time to Walk Him, K.R. Four Men on the Bases and One Run to Lose ... You Picked a Fine Time to Walk Him K.R. "

[Calif_Eagle]

Relative to the Bagwell-Maddux "Did he let him homer or didnt he?" debate, there was a passage in the classic book "A False Spring" by Pat Jordan, (I believe I read it there) about Whitlow Wyatt, who was one of Jordan's minor league pitching coaches in the Milwaukee Braves system, & Paul Waner about a similar type of situation. Seems Wyatt was coasting along with a nice lead one day & decided to groove an inside pitch to Waner to see if he had the power to pull it into the stands down the line. To take an opportunity to "Go to school" on him as it were. It was related in the book that Waner, upon seeing the easy pitch figured what Wyatt was up to & rather then blasting a meaningless HR in a 9-1 game (or whatever the score was) Waner purposely fouled it back to plant the seed with Wyatt that he would be handcuffed with his timing off when Wyatt tossed him one like that in the future. Supposedly the next time the Pirates & Dodgers met with Wyatt on the hill, Waner came to the plate in a more crucial situation to the game & Wyatt tossed him the pitch again. Waner supposedly could have blasted it into orbit, but instead did what winning the game called for & either laid a perfect bunt down or slapped a clean single behind the runner. I dont recall which. I sort of wonder just how much this type of thing actually goes on, & if it's fairly frequent, who typically gets the benefit, the pitcher or the hitter? Maybe this type of thing was what prompted Earl Weaver to keep his batter-pitcher stats for use in crucial situations. We all know the story of Hub Pruett & how Babe Ruth could not hit his screwball, despite the fact that Pruett was a very ordinary pitcher to everyone else in the AL. Does anyone have more stories about this type of scenario?

[Calif_Eagle]

Does "smartest" mean in terms of baseball or general intelligence as a person? Moe Berg was pretty sharp for instance.

I remember a story about Kenny Rogers when he was with the Rangers his first time around. The team was having a meeting and they were having some argument over something. Rogers, wanting to claim the superior position, got and said that he knew what he was talking about because he had the highest IQ on the team (supposedly 150-160). Someone in the back shouted back, "Yeah, you got the highest ERA in the American League, too!"

I took the thread to mean "baseball intelligence", but if it just means general IQ, Moe Berg wouldnt be a bad choice at all for the smartest man to ever play. Ty Cobb would surely still be in the running also, I believe. Cy Young Award winner Mike Marshall got a Doctorate in Kinesiology. P Jay Hook had an advanced degree in a difficult subject like astro-physics or fluid dynamics. These are just 2 examples off the top of my head, I'm sure I have missed many many men with impressive advanced degrees & book smarts as well. The story about Rogers brings to mind something Jim Bouton said in "Ball Four" to the effect of "In baseball, you are only as smart as your ERA." meaning if you are going good, everyone wants to hear what you have to say, if you arent, no one does.

[cup2006sensrule]

Funny that as a layman but serious baseball fan it seemed 2 of my 3 choices were in fact considered the smartest baseball minds of all time. More interesting becuase Maddux by all accounts is a truly nice guy while Cobb is an evil SOB. In charachter perhaps the most different human beings among HOF players and yet the most inteliigent.

My third choice who was not as much mentioned as the other 2 was Maddux's compatriot as a hitter. Williams was so smart as a hitter he would know what the pitchers were thinking and be able to do the crap Maddux did in the batter's box. He could read all the pitches and pitchers the same kinda way Maddux played the pitchers. At least that is how I read Williams history.

The fourth I would say was Ruth. Ruth was a natural talent but he had to be ridiculously smart about the game to get away with the crap he pulled. He was such a great baserunner while being overweight. His hitting is the best ever and he could pitch too and I think from what I have read and seen a bit like Maddux, though he walked alot more guys his plan was to outwit them rather than overpower them.

[2Chance]

One obvious vote for Cobb, who I would never describe as evil, but anyway....

Others to consider:
• RP Mike Marshall, who was thought to be some kind of flake when he pitched for the Tigers and Seattle, was the only ballplayer who held a PhD while active. Here's a good article on him, taken from Baseball Digest, 2003, and here is something more recent.

• George Medich, who pitched for the Yankees and was doing pretty well, had to decide between baseball and medical school, and eventually chose the latter. (Back then you'd have agreed that was a good move.) Here is the bio from lonestarball.com, where he is listed 42nd in the top 50 Rangers of all time.

[Victory Faust]

Paul Richards?

Rube Foster?

[csh19792001]

We all know the story of Hub Pruett & how Babe Ruth could not hit his screwball, despite the fact that Pruett was a very ordinary pitcher to everyone else in the AL. Does anyone have more stories about this type of scenario?

September 29, 2001

Barry Bonds

SAN FRANCISO, CALIFORNIA

Q. What did you think when you first saw McElroy come into the game?
BARRY BONDS: That my day was over to be honest with you. (Laughter).

Q. Why did you think that?
BARRY BONDS: Because he's always given me problems. He's always pitched me well. Even when he makes a mistake, I still haven't had an opportunity to take advantage of it. Right now, everything is working right.

Q. Have you and Chuck McElroy joked about the success he's had with you?
BARRY BONDS: Yeah, we've joked a lot about it. Unfortunately, he's always had the better side of the jokes, and he still does. Because even though I did hit a home run, he's still had the advantage over me throughout our careers.

Barry's career line against Mcelroy was a pathetic 3 for 33 (.091) with a .114 OBP and .303 slugging.

[baseballPAP]

Joe Morgan and Willie Mays come to mind.

I'm not disagreeing, but every time I listen to Morgan broadcasting, I have a hard time thinking he's a smart ANYTHING.

For my money, Pete Rose showed me more little tricks of the trade than any other player. He had probably less actual talent than anyone ever mentioned on this board. He made up with a lot of effort and a keen mind. When he was managing in Cincy, besides putting himself in the lineup, he was uncanny. In pregame shows, he could give opponents batting averages against his pitcher off the top of his head, and the same for his players against the opposing pitchers. Of course we all now know its because he was figuring the over/under, but still

[TRfromBR]

I'm not disagreeing, but every time I listen to Morgan broadcasting, I have a hard time thinking he's a smart ANYTHING.

For my money, Pete Rose showed me more little tricks of the trade than any other player.

Joe Morgan was an extremely bright ballplayer, and is an extremely bright analyst. His knowledge of playing ball is tremendous.

His teammate Rose, however, sometimes checked his brain at the turnstile.

[baseballPAP]

Have you ever even listened to Morgan do a game? My god, he is terrible, and you have to be the first person I have ever heard call him a great analyst.