DiMaggio or Williams?

[qual101]

I just finished skimming thru "The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract", and so I now I have a vague understanding of his Win Shares system for rating player value (= contribution to WINNING GAMES thru hitting, fielding and/or pitching). Offensive contribution is judged mainly by "runs created", and each player's contribution to runs created is measured mainly by (OBA)*(TB). Win Share totals also include contributions as a fielder.

A truly GREAT player will have some seasons with 30 or more Win Shares. Some Hall of Famers will have a season with 40 or more WS, but most fall short even in their best seasons.

TED WILLIAMS was the youngest left fielder ever to earn 30 Win Shares (32 in 1939, when he had 145 RBI at age 20); and Ted was the OLDEST left fielder to score 30 WS when he hit .388 at age 38. In between, he missed 30 WS only in those seasons when he was injured, or when he was in military service. Ted had 30 or more Win Shares in TEN different seasons -- 40 or more in five of those seasons -- and he finished his career with 555 WS (39.2 per 162 games played). Only Babe Ruth (RF) has a higher Win Share average per 162 games. Bill James ranks Williams as the #1 left fielder of all time.

JOE DIMAGGIO played from 1936 thru 1951 (essentially a contempory of Ted Williams). In his career DiMaggio had SIX seasons with 30 Win Shares or more, but only ONCE did he reach 40. (Actually, 41 WS in his MVP year of 1941 -- when Williams had 42.) Joe ended his career with 387 Win Shares, or 36.1 per 162 games played. James ranks Joe as the #5 Center Fielder of all time (behind Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle and Tris Speaker).

So how did it happen that from his retirement until his death, JOE DiMAGGIO was widely proclaimed as our "GREATEST LIVING BALLPLAYER"? Is the Bill James Win Shares method that far off the mark?

[bucsparrothead]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

Joe DiMaggio was a golden boy from California who played for the NUMEROUS championship winning Yankees. He was a snappy dresser, had upper class mannerisms, married Marilyn Monroe, and just played without much controversy. I have no respect for him because of his stand on the integration of baseball, but as a ball player, you are right, he cannot compare to....

Ted Williams. The system is right, and the media would be wrong. Ted's problem is that he has that arrogant air, and he played for the ever-losing Red Sox. These two things kept him from getting the credit he deserved as 'Greatest Living Ballplayer'. I firmly believe that like politics, you have to play to the public and the Splendid Splinter didn't play.

From Wagner, Vaughan and Traynor to Clemente, Stargell, and Tekulve...a proud tradition of excellence and hard work known as the Pittsburgh Pirates.

[BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?


Joe ended his career the #5
>Center Fielder of all time (behind Willie Mays, Ty Cobb,
>Mickey Mantle and Tris Speaker).
>
>So how did it happen that from his retirement until his
>death, JOE DiMAGGIO was widely proclaimed as our "GREATEST
>LIVING BALLPLAYER"? Is the Bill James Win Shares method
>that far off the mark?

BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT

Bill's results are objective, while Joe's are subjective,
that's the reason for the disparity.

As you know, objective analyses, are impartial,
impersonal, and based upon facts and statistics,
while subjective analyses are based on the same
facts and statistics liberally doused with the "milk
of human kindness" syndrome!

So, in a conservative think tank poll, Reagan
will always be selected over Clinton as the greater
president, while, in a liberal think tank poll, Clinton
will slaughter Reagan every time - the objective
results of each presidency is doused with the feelings
of the voters and the subjective analyses produces
one winner in one venue and a different one in another!

The poll declaring Dimaggio the winner was a
subjective response from a select group of the media,
so, from that perspective, you can understand the
result - it was a subjective analysis, not an objective
one - if the poll had been conducted by Ken Keltner's
family in Ken Keltner's hometown, Ken might have won!

Remember elementary school and the hated
teacher's pet - you had the highest cumulative point
average, but you weren't the cutest kid in the class,
so, you know the rest of the story - in the eyes of the
subjective voters, Joe was the cutest and that's that!

Bottom line, if your family voted you ther greatest
baseball fan who ever lived, who's going to argue
with them?

Have a good one!

[shlevine42]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

>So how did it happen that from his retirement until his
>death, JOE DiMAGGIO was widely proclaimed as our "GREATEST
>LIVING BALLPLAYER"? Is the Bill James Win Shares method
>that far off the mark?

The story I heard is that it was DIMAGGIO HIMSELF who insisted that he would appear at Old Timers Games ONLY if he could take the field last and be introduced as the "GREATEST LIVING BALLPLAYER."

It was Joe's description of himself, and given what we now know about his obsession with his reputation,, it's a perfectly plausible story.

[cubbieinexile]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

» July 21, 1969: A gala All-Star Game banquet in Washington is one of baseball's great events. An all-time team and all-time living team is announced. Babe Ruth is selected Greatest All-Time Player, and Joe DiMaggio, Greatest Living Player.

This is according to BAseballlibrary.

[LouGehrig]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

Yes.

[LouGehrig]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

Please elaborate on DiMaggio’s stand on the integration of baseball. Thank you.

[bluezebra]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

Cobb played very little CF. Crawford was the CF when with Detroit. Cobb outhit DiMaggio, but was nowhere near the fielder DiMag was.

Between DiMaggio and Williams, I'd take Williams on his hitting, and durability. I'm 70 years old, and have seen thousands of games, and even more players. The "Thumper" is the greatest hitter I have ever seen, bar none. He hit under .300 only once, and that was in a shortened season. He hit .345, his first full season back from the Korean War. He hit .388 when he was 38-years-old. His last season he was 41, and he hit .316, with 29 homers, in 310 at bats. He was walked 2019 times, and struck out only 709. Incredible for a power hitter.

Bob

[bucsparrothead]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

I read somewhere that DiMaggio was on the phone with the commissioner when Jackie Robinson entered MLB, and he protested Robinson's entry into the league. I can't find the source right now, but if I can't then I have no proof...if I don't find it then I retract that last statement because I guess I was suckered into thinking he did. BUT I do know that people have two lives, public and private. Let me look around..

From Wagner, Vaughan and Traynor to Clemente, Stargell, and Tekulve...a proud tradition of excellence and hard work known as the Pittsburgh Pirates.

[qual101]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Apr-28-02 AT 03:53 PM (EDT)]As for strikeout ratios, both Williams and DiMaggio were outstanding -- especially when compared to today's power hitters. Ted Williams had 709 strikeouts in his career, which averages 2.85 walks per SO, and 9.2 strikeouts per 100 AB. Overall, Ted averaged 1.36 strikeouts per career homerun.

DiMaggio had 369 career strikeouts in his 6821 career AB, and had 790 walks. His averages then are 2.14 walks per strikeout, and 5.4 strikeouts per 100 AB. Thru his career Joe averaged 1.02 strikeouts for each of his career 361 homeruns. In fact, DiMaggio went five consecutive seasons with fewer strikeouts than homeruns: 1937-1941!

[BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

>
>Between DiMaggio and Williams, I'd take Williams on his
>hitting, and durability. I'm 70 years old, and have seen
>thousands of games, and even more players.
>
>Bob

BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT

Guys and gals, let's find out from an expert eyewitness
who ranks as the 10 greatest hitters (notice I didn't say
players, I want hitters) and the the 10 greatest pitchers
he ever saw with his own two eyes - the eyewitness account
always speaks volumes and here we have an expert who has seen
the great ones play!

Hopefully I am not imposing, since baseball trivia analysis
is almost always a labor of love for the baseball trivia buff, so
would you be able to share your thoughts on the above when you
can.

I would think that all of us rarely get to hear from the
expert who has seen it all and has no political axe to grind
and will just tell us like it is!

So, again, if you would be so kind, let us know which hitters
you actually saw who were the ten best, and which pitchers?
And, to complete the pitcure, if you didn't get a chance to see
some star hitters or pitchers, let us know, so we'll know why they
did not make your list.

Thanks in advance!

[ed reulbach]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

I don't have the source, but I remember reading (possibly in 1970 Sporting News Baseball Guide?) that at the time of Mickey Mantle's retirement in March of 1969, DiMaggio reportedly said something like: "They ought to hang his number higher than mine because he was the greatest player I ever saw." Had his anointment as "Greatest Living Player" come four months before Mantle's retirement rather than after, I wonder if he would have been willing to sound so humble.

[qual101]

RE: Williams or DiMaggio?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON May-03-02 AT 06:25 PM (EDT)]> So, again, if you would be so kind, let us know which
>hitters
> you actually saw who were the ten best, and which
>pitchers?
> And, to complete the pitcure, if you didn't get a chance
>to see
> some star hitters or pitchers, let us know, so we'll know
>why they
> did not make your list.
>

My "best hitters" list:
1. Ted Williams
2. Mickey Mantle
3 Harmon Killebrew
4. Rod Carew
5. Joe DiMaggio
6. Dave Parker
7. Tony Oliva
8. Mike Schmidt
9. Larry Doby
10. Vern Stephens

For pitchers:
1. Bob Feller
2. Billy Pierce
3. Steve Carlton
4. Jack Morris
5. Bob Lemon
6. Vic Raschi
7. Vida Blue
8. Jack Morris
9. Frank Viola
10. Jim Kaat

Except for a few years in Pittsburgh (1975-78) my live game witnessing was limited to the American League. So I really did not see in person the great NL hitters like Musial, Mays, Foster or Aaron in person; or NL pitchers like Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan.
Most of the games I remember from the 50's were White Sox against Yankees, Red Sox or Indians; in later years it was Pirates against the Phillies, and then Twins against Detroit.

The main point for this post is I did see a number of White Sox games from 1947-1956 against Yankees or Red Sox. In those games Williams did far more damage than DiMaggio. Each Williams AB was exciting!

[DoubleX]

Williams v. DiMaggio

I think this has long been one of the great questions of baseball, who was better, Ted Williams or Joe DiMaggio?

Looking at statistics, it's plain to see that Williams had a much longer career and was a phenomenal hitter right through his very last at-bat. As a hitter, he also had a much higher peak than DiMaggio. I think it's fair to say that while DiMaggio was a great hitter, Williams was a historic hitter.

But, as with all things baseball, there is more than meets the eye. First, while Williams' offensive statistics benefited from the dimensions of Fenway, DiMaggio's were hindered by the huge and cavernous dimensions of old Yankee Stadium (can you imagine how high DiMaggio's average could have been as a right-handed hitter able to pepper balls off Fenway every day?). Given park adjustments, they're probably much closer as hitters than statistics say, though Williams was still likely the superior batsmen.

But, of course, there is still more. DiMaggio was clearly the superior all around player. He approached all aspects of the game as Williams approached hitting - with a drive for perfection. DiMaggio's teams won, Williams' teams (like many Red Sox teams) were often bridesmaids but never the bride. DiMaggio did often have a better supporting cast (though Williams was on some pretty good Sox teams), but my perception of DiMaggio is he played more to win while Williams played more to be the best - and that's why I believe DiMaggio excelled more in all aspects of the game, while Williams had the higher offensive statistics.

Additionally, DiMaggio appears to have been regarded more highly by the generation that remembers them both in their prime. The fact that in 1969 DiMaggio was voted greatest living ballplayer by a consensus of people who could very easily remember both players in their primes speaks volumes about who was perceived to be the better player and tells us a great deal more than simple stats on paper could ever tell.

Now I can see easily picking Williams if we consider whole careers. But if we just consider the period at which these guys were at their best, then I don't think the answer is so clear.

[improbus]

If I had to have one of the two on my team, give me DiMaggio any day. The only part of the game where Williams was superior was putting the head of the bat on the ball, yet Joe D. was no slouch there either. It's like making an argument between Manny and Ichiro, sure, Manny's numbers generally look sexier, but Ichiro does everything you could ever ask of a ballplayer.