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Thread: Rec v's Travel

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbb3601 View Post
    Back to my first question can you just play Rec untill h/s and if you are good enough if the talent is there the cream will rise to the top, or is this just a pipe dream?
    Yes it is possible... You can only supress talent for so long... Also remember that many schools have several levels which include freshman ball, junior varsity and varsity. Most HS coaches look at the former levels as developmental.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbb3601 View Post
    Is TB pre big field ruining youth baseball in America?
    While I'm adamant about playing at the most challenging level possible once hitting the big field, extensive travel on the small fields isn't necessary. Who cares if a few kids can't catch the ball in LL minors? I used this to help my son learn self control on the mound. In LL Majors we had almost all competent players. More than half the league was playing travel at some level. But the travel was built around the LL schedule and it wasn't extensive.

    In the preteen years on the smaller fields a kid learns the basics and builds a passion for the game. Taking leads at an early age doesn't provide some magical advantage when all the good players hit the big field.

    I've also seen rec and travel kids who excelled on small fields because they were trained to death and looked like mini pros. But when they got to the big field they lacked the size, speed, strength and athleticism to continue to excel. The big field exposes a lot of players regardless of playing rec or travel in their preteen years.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    What ever happened to the idea that kids should be able to play baseball if they want to?

    Even the ones that suck.

    It's people like you that are absolutely poisoning the sport with this attitude.

    If you want to think this way, please leave to go to select or travel ball.

    If you guys looked at yourselves, and what you say, you might begin to understand why interest in baseball is declining. You're absolutely sucking the fun out of the game.
    They're entitled to play. They're shouldn't be entitled to play at the same level as the top players just because of their age. By 13-15 they should have showed up for practice and attempted to be the best they can be. Of course in our area it doesn't matter. This policy drove away all the talented kids to other baseball venues.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jima View Post
    TG - pls do me a favor and don't blame my replys on your insistence to use your family as a point of reference that no one cares about. I realize now that you consider yourself the "Bill O'Reilly" of this site, but HG, me and others are tired of hearing about how great you and your family are...I'm sorry bud, but when I see self pontification, I'll point it out. jima
    Why don't you confine your posts to baseball and ignore me? If you don't like it, don't read it.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Uh, yes there is.

    I hope you don't coach a rec league team. If you do, I feel sorry for the kids you coach.

    You're missing the point of the game.
    Chris, we're taking about age thirteen to fifteen year old ball. The high school prospects don't want to play with kids who can't catch a ball. And shouldn't be playing with them.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Three A's baseball View Post
    First off I know he dosent' need me to defend him but lay off Chris and no personal attacks. Just not right. On my son's rec team there were 5 kids who were pretty good and 10 who couldn't figure out which end was up. Those 5 helped those 10 and by the end of the year everyone was better for it.

    The 5 did they improve that much baseball wise, yes because their dads continued to work with them on their own time. Sort of the reason why they were the best anyway.

    The 10 improved 10 fold and really enjoyed their season.

    A rec baseball success story.
    Once again, WOG and I are talking about the 13-15 age group.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TG Coach View Post
    Chris, we're taking about age thirteen to fifteen year old ball. The high school prospects don't want to play with kids who can't catch a ball. And shouldn't be playing with them.
    I'm fine with being demanding/exclusive when it comes to kids in HS (and maybe even middle school).

    However, I would argue that when it comes to grade school rec ball, IMO playing is a right and not a privilege. If you don't want to play with mediocre kids, then you don't belong in a rec organization.

    What we do with our 5th through 8th graders is create A and B teams. That way everyone gets to play at the appropriate level and gets to play a lot.
    Just Google my name to find me.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogdoggy View Post
    to the kid who trying out for his high school team that never saw gas like that comming at him before now.
    Warning: This is going to be about my son. If anyone doesn't like it, don't read it.

    This relates to WOG's last couple of posts. I do not believe my son (fourteen) would have succeeded in the varsity summer workout BP's against 80+ pitching had he faced 65-70 mph rec pitching all summer. One of the incoming freshman pitched travel but played rec as a position player. He hit about .450 in rec ball. He was completely overwhelmed in BP.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    There is more to life than just playing with the kids who are good.

    One way to get better is to teach people how to play the game. It points out the holes in your own knowledge.

    My older kids help me coach my little kids, and everybody is better for it.


    sure there is be we choose to play were its the most fun and most beneficial to MY SON and unfortunately it AINT fun for him when he has to alter his game so dramatically,,


    chris said..If you don't want to play with mediocre kids, then you don't belong in a rec organization.
    and thats what we did
    Last edited by wogdoggy; 08-10-2007 at 01:55 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by TG Coach View Post
    Warning: This is going to be about my son. If anyone doesn't like it, don't read it.

    This relates to WOG's last couple of posts. I do not believe my son (fourteen) would have succeeded in the varsity summer workout BP's against 80+ pitching had he faced 65-70 mph rec pitching all summer. One of the incoming freshman pitched travel but played rec as a position player. He hit about .450 in rec ball. He was completely overwhelmed in BP.


    Although we always dont see eye to eye on many issues there is zero doubt in my mind on this topic..you dont see the talented pitching to help you improve and yoou don't get the experience you need especially on the base paths to have the same shot the ones who do have

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TG Coach View Post
    They're entitled to play. They're shouldn't be entitled to play at the same level as the top players just because of their age. By 13-15 they should have showed up for practice and attempted to be the best they can be. Of course in our area it doesn't matter. This policy drove away all the talented kids to other baseball venues.


    what part of this dont you agree with chris?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Patterson View Post
    What good has youth TB accomplished? The talent pool of those who make it in the pros is not exponetially larger because of it. Some would argue the pool has declined. All we need to do is look at the increasing number of non-American's playing today in the MLB (Nearly 30%).

    If someone can provide a logical argument that proves the benefits of Youth TB to the game of baseball I would be more than happy to listen. To date I still only see over-zealous coaches and dellusional parents. And I say that as someone who has been on both sides of the fence.
    To me there are three levels of acheivement in baseball, 1) high school, 2) college and 3) pro.

    Travel ball isn't going to create more MLB baseball players when 99.97% of kids who play ball will not earn a living in MLB. Only 1% of players in the minors will earn a living in MLB.

    If you take all the kids who start playing when they're 7/8 chances are a majority of them would like to play for their high school someday. Now it's a matter of what's the best avenue to get there based on where the player lives. As I've stated (ad nauseum) it's travel once the kids hit the teen years in our area. Therefore travel has a value.

    If a player wants to get out of region for college ball, showcases are the answer. Unless the high school coach has a connection somewhere, the players are only going to get local exposure playing high school and Legion. Once again in these circumstances, travel has value.

    There are a lot of quality players in D1 who were not high ranked pro prospects coming out of high school. Being all-conference and/or all-state doesn't mean a player is a pro prospect. Now you can blame the college and pro scouts for this one if you want. Let's take the decent D1 prospect/marginal pro prospect. He can pray the scouts show up at his high school game or he can go to a showcase where he knows they will be. Where are the odds better?

    I came across a showcase website recently. It listed dates, locations and what colleges would be in attendance. It also mentioned pro scouts would be in attendance. If a kid wants to play at one of these colleges he's out of his mind if he doesn't play in that showcase.

    There's a showcase program local to us. They compete at Perfect Game showcases. In eight years they've helped place 136 players in college an/or pro ball.

    A local private school has been in the USA Today top twenty-five a couple of times in the past few years. When I was looking for one more 13U player last year I asked the coach if he knew of any good candidates from his summer camp. He gave me a name. He told me "This kid should absolutely not be playing rec ball leading into high school."

    No, travel will not generate more MLB players. Anyone who believes travel is going to make their kid a MLB'er is delusional. But travel may be part of the path which allows the kid to get where he needs to be to demonstrate what he has, to get his shot at the pros.

    The challenge of travel ball has placed my son high on the radar screen heading into high school ball. If he turns out to be good enough to play college ball, and wants to play out of region, chances are he'll be playing showcase ball. It worked for the oldest.

  13. #73
    I played rec ball through ninth grade and I saw the drop off in competition the year I played as a 9th grader. Alot of the players had moved on to legion / travel teams for 9th grade. My mom wasn't able to put up with the travel at that time so the local league worked for me and was my only option.

    Looking back, I could say there was an adjustment period for like 10 / 11 grade, but I caught up senior year and was able to earn a spot on my college's team. But then again, I practiced a ton my senior year and that ensuing summer. I think the practice helped more than the games at the higher competition. I realized I needed more time on the fundamentals and being consistent than anything because the athleticism was there. Travel ball would have helped during that 10th grade year alot. I took a job that summer who's schedule did not allow me to play for a travel team. I didn't play travel ball until 11th grade and realized I had some catching up to do (which motivated me to really bust it 12th grade).

    Alot of that opportunity depended on where you went to high school. I had a discussion with my buddy from high school when I saw him a few weeks ago about how he went to a national powerhouse for basketball and didn't make the team. You put him at 90% of the other high schools in Queens and he would have easily made varsity. He knew that making the team was going to be about 50 / 50 but his parents wanted him in Catholic schol.

    If I would have went to one of the Catholic school baseball powerhouses in Queens, I wouldn't have made varsity because I developed later on. Luckily I was in a situation where I was at a weaker school and I was able to get more time to develop. There were alot of players in the public league in that situation. And by the time alot of us hit college, things straightened out.

    Fortunately again, there wasn't just one high school in town. We had choices. I kinda feel bad for those who only have one show in town and if you don't get in the click, your chances of getting a fair shot are reduced. Also, just a quick note. Some of these travel team schedules are so hectic that it doesn't allow the kids to hold down a job in the summer. Not every family can afford that.
    Last edited by metrotheme; 08-10-2007 at 02:28 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by TG Coach View Post
    Why don't you confine your posts to baseball and ignore me? If you don't like it, don't read it.
    TG, I'll try, but it won't be easy. Buffoonery is tuff to ignore. jima

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardball View Post
    The most successful travel teams (the teams that win the most games), and the one's who aspire to be the best, first improve by recruiting better players and then by improving existing players. Since these teams are often playing 10-12 or more games every month there is limited time for the practice needed to develop skills. The old saw about a kid improving by playing tougher competition is a myth, athletes improve by practicing and developing their skills.
    This is why it's important to find the right travel team. My son's team played .700 ball over the course of the season, won a couple of tournaments and made the semis in five others. But this was not a function of cornering the talent market. It was a function of "development first." We practiced at least twice a week. We played two tournaments a month for five months. In the off weeks we paracticed and played other travel teams while working with players on the side during the games.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hardball View Post
    Travel ball's other problem is common with rec ball and that is unreasonable parental expectations. We all see our kids with our hearts first and sometimes believe them to posess skills they just don't have. This leads some parents on a search for the “right team” where junior will finally be a star, or at least the SS, or Pitcher, or #3 hitter, or whatever it is mom and dad think he ought to be. The “baseball academy” and other “pay to play” organizations are particularly susceptible to this problem since the adults involved have similar sense of entitlement the rec team parents do.
    The kids on our 14U team are potential high school players. That's how their parents see them. The parents expect to see the kind of training that will help the kids get there. We have twelve stars on our team. If you asked who's the best, the response would be "At what skill?" "At what position?" I don't see my son as the star. Sometimes he bats second. Sometimes he bats ninth. Sometimes he plays second. Sometimes he plays right. If the shortstop pitches he plays short. He plays short for school. He's been the star. He's been carried by the team. The kids pick each other up. This travel team isn't about being the stud. It's about being challenged.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by deaconspoint View Post
    Yes. Folks who believe this not to be true are missing the boat. How many of those here played HS ball and beyond and never played anything other than rec ball? That might be an enlightening number. And while we're at it. How many of this same group, those who played HS and beyond, spent anywhere near the amount of time on our game when we were kids as we expect our kids to now.


    I think I'll start a poll and see what the numbers look like.
    I played college ball playing rec ball through age fifteen, until playing Legion in high school. I got out of region for college through connections and being in a Legion lineup with a heavily scouted stud. But times have changed. Read my description on page one of this thread on what rec ball was when I played and what it is now.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    I'm fine with being demanding/exclusive when it comes to kids in HS (and maybe even middle school).

    However, I would argue that when it comes to grade school rec ball, IMO playing is a right and not a privilege. If you don't want to play with mediocre kids, then you don't belong in a rec organization.

    What we do with our 5th through 8th graders is create A and B teams. That way everyone gets to play at the appropriate level and gets to play a lot.
    I stated earlier my son learned a lot about emotional control pitching in 9/10's with kids who couldn't field. I believe it had it's own developmental value. Our LL Majors was strong. It was a great experience. It was challenging. There was a lot of travel quality pitching. But at 13U it was time to move on to travel.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogdoggy View Post
    Although we always dont see eye to eye on many issues there is zero doubt in my mind on this topic..you dont see the talented pitching to help you improve and you don't get the experience you need especially on the base paths to have the same shot the ones who do have
    I'll add another factor, the speed of the game. It's how hard the hitter has to hit the ball to have it not be tracked down by a fielder. It's how quickly a fielder has to get to the ball and get off a hard throw to beat the runner.

    My son noticed a big difference in the effectiveness of his arm in the high school workouts compared to 14U. He has a very good arm for 14U and his size. It's average by varsity standards. Growth and working out should make up the difference.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jima View Post
    TG, I'll try, but it won't be easy. Buffoonery is tuff to ignore. jima
    Avoiding making it personal would be a start.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TG Coach View Post
    To me there are three levels of acheivement in baseball, 1) high school, 2) college and 3) pro.
    I too think there are three levels of Baseball:

    1.Recreational
    Show up, practice, try hard = Play
    Narrow age specific groups
    Teams play with social contracts rather than written or legal agreements

    2.Competitive
    Playing time is earned
    Wider range of ages compete against each other, (HS, College, Club Teams)
    Participants agree to put Team needs ahead of personal goals

    3.Professional
    Compensation for play is agreed upon in writing, (money, scholarship, exposure, etc)
    Positions and playing time are determined strictly by the needs of the Team
    Widest range of ages and backgrounds playing together
    CAHardball

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