The Bitter Rivals Thread

[Perseas]

Originally posted by razors

Originally posted by YankeeMan
But hey, what franchise, in any sport, compares with the Yanks?

i think it would depend on the criteria used - e.g. fan base (amount vs. intensity), titles, name recognition, revenue, blah, blah...

manchester united for sure...

...and maybe:

arsenal
barcelona
real madrid
juventus

amd i think the green bay packers have a fairly successful and storied history...

razors

Thank god someone popped out of the US borders to look further ahead. I only like to watch international soccer games (and I come from a country where 90% of sports news is domestic and international soccer) but you guys have to admit that most of the teams that razors stated have a huge amount of fans worldwide. It is a fact thaat 96% of Man United fans have never been to Old Trafford (because it's thousands of miles away from where they live or come from). Barcelona has a 95000 seat stadium (Camp Nou) and in every home match they issue only 10000 tickets, because they have 80000 season ticket members and around 1500 member clubs worldwide, almost the same as Real Madrid. I myself am a member of the Juverntus fan club in Athens, Greece. So l would advise a little caution when referring to the rest of the world. And besides that you should know that outsside the American continent, the most popular sports league is the NBA.

I apologise if the posting looks offensive it's just that

[aroundthehorn]

Originally posted by KenFougere
Well, ATH, glad you like it!....
Now, what do you think is "the best" baseball rivalry?....

Yankees - RedSox is the best, I hope to someday witness 1 page of a yearly chapter of this historic novel in my days roaming the earth. It will come to me.

2nd in line is to me, Cubs-Cardinals, the electricity "buzz", and intense what I would call love/hate to beat the other team is prevalent when these 2 hook up.

The Sosa-McGwire home run race was just dessert for this storied rivalry. It's going to be fun to see Matt Morris v. Wood/Clement/ or Prior this year a few times.

Then, Dodger/Giants.

[Sandman]

Mets-Braves is very heated. That belongs in th top 5, I'd say.

[Steffo]

You cannot forget the classic Devil Rays-White Sox matchups....

Actually, I think there are few classic rivalries these days besides the RedSox/Yankees, Cubs/Cards, Dodgers/Giants, and Mets/Braves.

I think the A's have a rivalry but I can't think it.

[bezdomny]

I'm certain that was a joke.

But I think that, over the years ahead, Tampa-Boston could evolve into a great rivalry. Nothing remotely close to the NY-Boston rivalry, of course, but when the Rays get good, I think it will be a rivalry.

Early days yet, but these two teams sure hate each other passionately. And when I go to Rays-Red Red Sox games, there's a lot more tension in the air than when I go to Rays-Yankees games.

In any event, the Red Sox are the team I seem to most enjoy watching the Rays play and, on happy occasions, defeat.

[KenFougere]

Originally posted by bezdomny
I'm certain that was a joke.

But I think that, over the years ahead, Tampa-Boston could evolve into a great rivalry. Nothing remotely close to the NY-Boston rivalry, of course, but when the Rays get good, I think it will be a rivalry.

Early days yet, but these two teams sure hate each other passionately. And when I go to Rays-Red Red Sox games, there's a lot more tension in the air than when I go to Rays-Yankees games.

In any event, the Red Sox are the team I seem to most enjoy watching the Rays play and, on happy occasions, defeat.

You're absolutely right. These last couple of years have had their share of bench-clearing brawls, bean-balls and ejections. I remember Pedro being in the middle of it too. It's going to get worse with Lou P. as the manager. He won't back down from anybody.


{to Yankeeman: Speaking of Lou, that was the luckiest stab at a ball (in the sun) that he never even saw!
Do you know what game I'm talking about?}........

[bezdomny]

Yep. As of some point last year, the Rays and BoSox led the majors in terms of the two teams who HBP each other the most. I don't know if they finished the season that way, but it wouldn't surprise me, given that Pedro is the active career leader in HBP and the Rays young pitching is prone to it as well.

Here in the Tampa Bay area, there are a lot of relocated Yankees fans, so when you go to a Rays-Yankees game people have a hard time rooting against the team from "back home." But although there are some former Bostonians here as well, they are fewer. And of course, the relocated New Yorkers are used to hating the Red Sox anyway. So I think most Rays fans see the BoSox as the most targetable rival for the Tampa Bay franchise as it seeks to find an identity within the American League.

[BigFan14]

I can't remember who coined the phrase

"A rivalry can only exist when two teams have a chance of beating each other on a consistent basis"

to that light, while the red sox and yankees may go head to head during the season, the redsox have rarely been able to beat the Yankees to gain the first place position.

I think it is called a rivalry for lack of any other word, but the Red Sox can not beat and have not beaten the Yankees therefore, I do not consider this a rivalry

Since the last time Sox won a WS they have won 4 AL Pennants
The Yankees have won 38

an the WS...well we know that record.

[bezdomny]

I have to agree with Ken. After all, the Red Sox have made it past the Yankees to reach the World Series on several occasions. In fact, the last four times the Sox have reached the Fall Classic, they've gone all the way to Game 7 before being heartbroken.

It's the Cardinals (twice), Reds and Mets who have wrenched the glory away from the Red Sox in the end, not the Yankees.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by bezdomny
I have to agree with Ken. After all, the Red Sox have made it past the Yankees to reach the World Series on several occasions. In fact, the last four times the Sox have reached the Fall Classic, they've gone all the way to Game 7 before being heartbroken.

It's the Cardinals (twice), Reds and Mets who have wrenched the glory away from the Red Sox in the end, not the Yankees.

As DarkDragon said in the early part of this thread:
Consider this: the Red Sox haven't won a World Series since 1918, that's 85 years. During that time, 26 WS have been won by the Yankees, that's more than a third of the years the Red Sox have been in drought. During that time, the Yankees have also won 38 pennants, preventing the Red Sox from reaching the WS nearly half of all of those years. Suppose the Yankees did not exist, how many of those pennants would the Sox have won? Quite a few, I suspect, by nothing more than probability. And out of those WS appearances, how many victories do you suppose they would have? At least a few, after all, even a blind mouse occasionally finds a piece of cheese.

[Sandman]

I meant to say that in response to:
It's the Cardinals (twice), Reds and Mets who have wrenched the glory away from the Red Sox in the end, not the Yankees.

[MetsFan11368]

I do agree that the Bosox/NYY is the most intense for sure, but in my case, I don't consider the Yankees/Mets rivalry too significant. Although a Mets fan, I have never been able to root against ANY team from the City of New York, and yes, that includes the Yankees. I always looked forward to a Subway Series and when it finally came, I felt uncomfortable that one of them would have to lose. Not too many of us round......

[Sandman]

Yanks/Mets has been a heated rivalry since the Subway Series

[Sports4u]

Not just because I'm a west coaster, but I think the most bitter rivalry as far as fans, players and ballpark attitude has to be the New York/San Francisco Giants vs the Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers !

The edge here keeps tinkering back and forth as far as supremacy is concerned, wheras the Yankees have so dominated the Red Sox over the years that the supremacy is totally one-sided.

(BTW, I'm a die-hard Yankee Fan since 1956 with Mantle, Mattingly, Murcer & Guidry my all-Time Yankee favorites)

There's only one REAL Team, the New York Yankees. All others just play for the fun of it as the Yankees allow

[Sports4u]

Remember Marichal/Roseboro & Ron Cey's remarks ? I guess it can be called a tie here (Red Sox/Yankees, Giants/Dodgers) depending on your geographics.
Both rivalries are obviously intense with fan & team hatred alike.

I'm not from New York, but doubt you can find any more of a Die-Hard to the grave Yankee Fan than I ! The Yankees have so dominated the sport of baseball that second place to their accomplishments are teams somewhere in past history.
Now if your a Brave fan, they suffered the ultimate punishment of humilty for even trying to intimidate the Crowned Kings (sorta like Jordan did to Stackhouse for running his mouth)!

JMHO

by the way, Juan Gonzalez just parked it to take a 3-1 over the Red Sox! Yankee pitchers rarely see this occurence this year

[bly11]

Originally posted by BasEbaLlKnoItAll

But i hate the red sox with a passion, i love goin to Fenway Park in my yankee jerseys and stuff and listen to all the sox fans yell and complain, and then get thrown out for taking part in "1918" chants, every chance i get to see those two teams i jump at it, because i love watching us beat you, blah blah blah blah blah ...

The consolation for Red Sox fans here is that KnoItAll will spend the entire next time he's at Fenway being hassled non-stop by all of Will Hunting's buddies. "Hey ... let's beat up that Yankee fan ... and steal his girl ... EHHH!"

As a West-Coaster, I have to say that the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry beats Giants-Dodgers, hands down. SF-LA is second ... but it's a distant second.


In support of KenFougere (who had to see about a girl ),

[Hammerin Hank]

Garland passes test in win
By Scott Merkin / MLB.com

CHICAGO -- Jon Garland exited to a standing ovation from the 25,381 fans at U.S. Cellular Field during Saturday’s game between the White Sox and Minnesota Twins.
In a start that the 23-year-old needed just to keep his spot in the rotation, Garland responded with a solid 5 2/3 innings of four-hit ball in a 7-4 victory over the Twins. He walked two, allowed two solo home runs and struck out five, helping the White Sox (13-11) end their three-game losing streak and picking up his first victory.

But, Garland’s pitching wasn’t the only reason the fans showed their support and appreciation.

With two outs and nobody on base in the sixth, Garland hit Doug Mientkiewicz in the backside with a pitch. Mientkiewicz had been thoroughly booed in each at-bat during the first two games of the series, after making comments about taking the All-Star Game from the White Sox on the same night the fans-on-the field incidents took place on April 15.

When hit by the pitch, Mientkiewicz pointed his bat toward Garland as he moved toward first base. Home plate umpire Bruce Froemming, who is also the crew chief, immediately ejected Garland.

Both benches and bullpens emptied, with some brief scuffling taking place between first and second base, but no major fighting. Twins reliever LaTroy Hawkins also was ejected, and Aaron Rowand replaced White Sox center fielder Armando Rios after order was restored.

It was not immediately clear why Rios left the game. In the bottom of the fifth, Magglio Ordonez was hit by Twins starter Kyle Lohse with runners on first and second and one out. Ordonez, angered when hit by J.C. Romero in the ninth inning of Friday’s game, hit a home run off Lohse in the fourth.

Lost in all the hit-batsmen uproar was a return appearance from the White Sox offense, which had produced just 15 runs in the past six games. Frank Thomas homered for the second straight night, giving him five for the season, and moving him into a tie with Albert Belle for 46th on the all-time list at 381.

Carlos Lee also launched a solo shot and added two doubles. Joe Crede delivered an RBI single, and Brian Daubach broke a 0-for-18 slump with a bases-loaded RBI single in the fifth. Ordonez picked up his fifth home run, and second of the game, with a two-run shot in the eighth.

Despite the 10-hit outburst, the White Sox left eight runners on base during the fifth, sixth and seventh innings alone and 10 for the game. Each team has three hit batters and one victory to even this series. There are 17 games remaining this season between the favorites, and heated rivals, in the American League Central.

[YankeeMan]

The greatest game I ever saw: October 2, 1978
By Peter Gammons

It was before seven on a crystalline autumn morning when Rick Burleson left his home in Acton, Mass., and simply drove around. "I felt like I had ulcers," the Boston Red Sox shortstop said later. A few days earlier Burleson had summarized the emotions of much of New England by saying, "My only feeling for the Yankees is that I hate them."

The 1978 playoff game between the Red Sox and the New York Yankees on Oct. 2 was the sudden-death overtime to a six-month war. In late July the Red Sox had been 14 games in front of the Yankees, living up to a Boston Herald story titled, HOW THE SOX BUILT '78 WONDER TEAM. Then the Yanks began a two-month assault on the Red Sox lead and by Sept. 16 led Boston by 3 1/2 games, prompting New York third baseman Graig Nettles to say of the Sox, "I don't feel sorry for them -- I pity them."

But Boston won their last eight games of the season to tie the Yankees, leaving Red Sox fans with a one-game shot at absolution for 60 years of torment. But for many of those fans there was a sense of dread: Said one fearful follower that day, "They got our parents, and now the sonsuvbitches are coming to get us."

The tension in Fenway Park was nearly overwhelming. The Yankee starter was Ron Guidry, who came in at 24-3. Leading off the second for Boston, 39-year- old Carl Yastrzemski guessed right on a Guidry fastball and buzzed it inside the rightfield foul pole. Red Sox 1, Yankees 0. The homer unleashed the crowd, and by the bottom of the sixth it looked as if the Sox might blow the game open. Jim Rice singled in Burleson. Guidry then intentionally walked Carlton Fisk to pitch to Fred Lynn with two on, two out.

"I knew Guidry didn't have his good stuff at that point," Yankee rightfielder Lou Piniella would say later. "I realized Lynn could pull him. So I moved over towards the line six or eight steps." Lynn smashed a line drive into the corner in right, but Piniella grabbed it just before it hit the low wall. Lynn later asked, "What was he doing out of position? How lucky can he be?"

With two out, two on and a 2-0 lead in the seventh, Sox starter Mike Torrez faced number 9 hitter Bucky Dent. After ball one, Dent fouled a pitch off his foot and limped out of the batter's box. Mickey Rivers, the on-deck hitter, noticed a crack in Dent's bat and gave him another. Dent used it to make history.

At the end of its arc the ball nestled into the screen just inside the leftfield foul pole: Yankees 3, Red Sox 2. How it got to be 5-2 is little remembered: an RBI double by Thurman Munson off reliever Bob Stanley, and a solo blast by Reggie Jackson in the top of the eighth.

But for this 163rd game of the season, the difference could not be three runs -- it had to be one. In the bottom of the eighth, as if the game were scripted by the baseball gods, the Sox scored twice. Then, with one out, one on in the ninth, Jerry Remy jumped a Goose Gossage fastball and hit a line drive to right. In the late October sun Piniella could not see the ball. "I knew it was headed towards me," he said. "I just had to wait for it to come into sight and react like a hockey goalie."

The ball landed in front of him and kicked up to his left; Piniella flashed out his glove and speared it. "If it had gone by me," he said, "it would've rolled to the bullpen, Remy would've had an inside-the-park homer, and he would forever be remembered as the man who ended the Curse. Instead, I got lucky."

Rice flied to right center, and with Red Sox on first and third, it was all set up for one final two-out, bottom-of-the-ninth shoot-out between Gossage, the premier fastball pitcher of his time, and Yaz, arguably the premier fastball hitter of his. I was crouched in an aisle near the Boston dugout; after the first pitch, ball one, I turned to a companion and said, "Yaz always wins in these moments."

Gossage's second pitch was 90-something miles an hour, and just as Yastrzemski began his swing, the ball ran in on him. "That I was not prepared for," Yaz said later. The pop-up soared over the third base coach's box, and when it finally came down, Nettles squeezed it. The one-run difference between the two best teams in baseball belonged to the Yankees.

Gossage would later say, "In some situations there are no losers, only winners. That was one of them." But while the Yankees went on to win the world championship, the Red Sox, for all they had accomplished, were just another second-place team.

Article courtesy of...

[BigFan14]

Let's face it, the Bosox Yankee rivalry is only a rivalry to the Bosox fan. I have never heard a "Red Sox Suck" chant, but hear the "Yankees Suck" chant even at the football championship rally.....totally classless I must say.

Again a rivalry is only a rivalry when both teams have an equal chance of winning. The red sox have only won 5 East Championships and 4 AL Pennants ...a long time since 1918....and the Yankees have 38 pennants...this is not a rivalry.


But the hottest and best rivalry I have lived is the south versus north rivalry. The best of which was the Atlanta Braves Versus the NY Yankees in 1996 when the Braves were up 2-0.

The south hate the Yankees--it's a north=south thing. (as in the civil war era).

There was so much cow dung thrown in my face after the Braves went up 2-0. But it then went the next four in the Yankees favor and another WS Champion

That my friends was and is a great rivalry!!!

[YankeeMan]

Yeah, but since the Atlanta Braves have NEVER beaten the Yankees for the title, they're not really rivials, according to your logic.

In fact, NO ONE RIVALS THE YANKEES!!!

The score is:
Yankees 26
"The other team" 9 (at most!)

It would take the second best teams (A's/Cardinals -- 9 titles) 17 World Series titles to catch up!

[brainofj21]

What's the "main" ingredient that makes the great rivalries stand the test of time? Is it geography, personalities, comparable talent level, or just pride? But, all teams have these components. So, what's the ONE thing that makes so few rivalrys {ex. Bos/NY} so strong for so long?... -......-

I think a good rivalry has a little bit of all of those factors involved. But the main factor that comes into a rivalry is how much each team's fans hate the other team's fans and team. I'm a Braves fan and I hate the Mets. I hate the Mets and I can't stand their fans. Red Sox fans hate Yankee fans and the Yankees. It's got to be deep down dislike for the rivalry to last. Like the new "rivalries" between the Yankees and Athletics or Mariners, do you really think 10 years from now people will still remember them? Not likely. But people will still be talking about the Red Sox and Yankees, Dodgers and Giants, and Mets and Braves. I also think jealousy has alot to do with the rivalries in any sport. Red Sox fans are jealous of the Yankees. The Mets are jealous of the Braves and the Yankees. Even though they more than likely not admit to being jealous but it's true in most cases.

[KenFougere]

Originally posted by brainofj21
I think a good rivalry has a little bit of all of those factors involved. But the main factor that comes into a rivalry is how much each team's fans hate the other team's fans and team. I'm a Braves fan and I hate the Mets. I hate the Mets and I can't stand their fans. Red Sox fans hate Yankee fans and the Yankees. It's got to be deep down dislike for the rivalry to last. Like the new "rivalries" between the Yankees and Athletics or Mariners, do you really think 10 years from now people will still remember them? Not likely. But people will still be talking about the Red Sox and Yankees, Dodgers and Giants, and Mets and Braves. I also think jealousy has alot to do with the rivalries in any sport. Red Sox fans are jealous of the Yankees. The Mets are jealous of the Braves and the Yankees. Even though they more than likely not admit to being jealous but it's true in most cases.

I was just thinking of great rivalries in other sports that I remember experiencing. In the early 70's the Boston Bruins {with Bobby Orr} had a fierce rivalry going with the New York Rangers {with Brad Park}. There wouldn't be more than 4-6 points separating them at the end of every season. BTW YM - New York/Brad Park always chased but, NEVER caught Boston/Bobby Orr for 1st place, or the Stanley Cup. EX.-{1972 Finals @ Madison Square Garden}....
But, I digress...
My point is I think to make a great rivalry, you need 2 teams to play the regular season in the same division for many years and the playoff structure allows them a chance to advance and play each other for all the marbles.

[brainofj21]

BTW, the Mets-Braves rivialry is prbably not even in the top 10 in baseball. It's merely transitory.

You got to be joking? Name me 10 rivalries that are better? Sports Illustrated ranked it as the 3rd best rivalry in baseball.
It might be a young rivalry, since the divisions were different until 95, but it's a heated one. They played each other in the 99 NLCS, they used to battle each other every year for the NL east. Of coarse the Mets are awful now but every Braves fan still wants to beat the Mets and every Mets fan wants to beat the Braves. It doesn't have the history of the Red Sox vs. Yankees but it's still heated. With Glavine jumping sides this year, it should be interesting to play them this year to say the least.

[KenFougere]

BOSTON -- Right after the final out Sunday, Red Sox manager Grady Little was eagerly anticipating the next game at Fenway Park.
By beating the Anaheim Angels 5-3 Sunday,

The Boston Red Sox tied the Yankees for first place in the American League East.

And starting Monday night, the Yankees will start a three-game series at Fenway Park in Boston.

"I think those baseball gods kind of work in weird ways, don't they?" Little said.
"On the eve before the Yankees are coming into town, they kind of put us in a tie and I don't guess that any of us would have it any other way," he said.
The Red Sox and Yankees have not played this season. Pedro Martinez will pitch Tuesday night for Boston and Roger Clemens will start the finale Wednesday night for the Yankees.

Next week is the rematch in New York.

I say it again, nothing else compares to this!

[Mattingly]

If anyone has YES, there's an interesting piece this evening, which continues.

"The Rivalry That Ruth Built. A look at the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry "

Please check the date and times.