Better Defensive SS: A-Rod or Jeter?

[joek7]

Hey Joek7. I have a a question for you. Suppose a pitcher is 0-30 and his team wins the World Series. Is that pitcher better than a guy who is 30-0 but his team comes in last place? Just a crazy hypothetical that is impossible but I`m curious.

Who's the better player? The guy who goes 0-1 on a team that wins the WS or the guy who goes 20-0 on a last place team?

Your scenario is near impossible, but most scenarios trying to illustrate a point are. But the answer to your question is one of the easiest. the most any pitcher can do for his team is WIN. A win for the pitcher is a win for the team, every time. The same for a loss. A loss for a pitcher is a loss for the team. Any pitcher won goes 30-0 has helped his team succeed to the highest degree. A pitcher who goes 0-20 has hurt his team to the worst degree. Again coming down to winning, the pitcher that helped his team is by far the best.

[joek7]

No need to belittle anyone here. You make points, but I'd really prefer that you be respectful of opposing viewpoints.

Also, we could just as easily say that your opinion is unworthy of involvement in the Yankee organization. That said, just because a team wins doesn't necessarily mean that fans are enthused of front office moves or in-game player decisions. Some say that the team won because of said decision; some would say that the teams have won despite said decisions.

Please continue to respect the opinions of those here, and I believe the same will be reflected back upon yourself when you post your opinions of the team. I think it's just fine to disagree, but I insist that folks here *RESPECTFULLY* disagree, posting the varied reasons why they feel the way they do.

If you think I have belittled anyone here by my post, I appologize. However, may I ask why nothing was posted regarding the poster who stated, "they are coming out of the woodwork," which really is being disrespectful. There is no need to open a can of worms here.

[DoubleX]

I find it interesting that the posters who support Jeter because he is the best and wins, are referred to as ''crawl out of the woodwork.""

I actually didn't mean offense by that. It was more a figure of speech. I'm actually taken aback that after years of being on here, at least three people with a very similar viewpoint, and dogmatic belief in it, unlike I've ever seen before, have emerged all around the same time. It's quite stunning actually and a strange coincidence.

[Mattingly]

If you think I have belittled anyone here by my post, I appologize. However, may I ask why nothing was posted regarding the poster who stated, "they are coming out of the woodwork," which really is being disrespectful. There is no need to open a can of worms here.

Which post are you referring to? Please provide a post number. I can't read every single post in a thread, even if I'm involved.

There are quite a few posts here that I haven't replied to, but then again, if I sat around saying what's OK or not, I likely wouldn't be talking much about baseball. Since you've put yourself into a point of focus here, your posts become more noticeable, whether you agree with that thinking or not.

My viewpoint is that neither of us are in the Yankee FO, unless your name is Steinbrenner (or one of his sons), Brian Cashman, Gene "Stick" Michael, etc. You may find our views faulty, but we can just as easily say the same about yours.

I seriously don't think that you are willing to post about Jeter being defensively superior to others. I've given you quite a few chances, but other than claiming that Jeter is the superior in some areas, I haven't seen any solid examples you've mentioned why he's better, and when I see people whose opinion I'm used to and respect differing very strongly against you on games they've watched just as you have, I tend to defer to their opinions.

Right now, I'll simply ask that if you have anything to contribute to this thread, it would be specifically about the defense of Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez. If you have anything else to discuss that's already been mentioned, such as who is the most important player in the Yanks' recent winning ways, which player has been more important in leading the Yanks onward in October, I'd suggest that they be placed into a new thread.

I believe that if you wish to discuss infield defense in its entirety, then that's fine. However, simply because of injury (Garciaparra) or a trade situation (one in which salary is involved (Rodriguez)), I don't believe that's grounds for one player being superior defensively, nor would I say that their name's inclusion into this thread becomes more "worthy" based upon whether they still play SS or not. The fact of the matter is, in the AL during the late 1990s, each of Messrs Rodriguez, Tejada, Garciaparra and Jeter were the top shorts. Nothing can change this.

If you or anyone else feels that Ted Williams and/or Barry Bonds aren't amongst the most elite of outfielders who've ever played the game (or LFers, for that matter), please post those opinions into the "History" forum. I won't guarantee you that many here will agree with you, but that would be the most appropriate place to do so. Please be *VERY* prepared to defend such a viewpoint if you choose to create such a post.

Once again, let's keep this thread *STRICTLY* about infield defense, be they current Yankee SSs, past Yankee shortstops, or shortstops who've never even played for the Yankees. Many thanks, and I greatly extend in advance my appreication to you for any co-operation you may offer us on this matter.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Your scenario is near impossible, but most scenarios trying to illustrate a point are. But the answer to your question is one of the easiest. the most any pitcher can do for his team is WIN. A win for the pitcher is a win for the team, every time. The same for a loss. A loss for a pitcher is a loss for the team. Any pitcher won goes 30-0 has helped his team succeed to the highest degree. A pitcher who goes 0-20 has hurt his team to the worst degree. Again coming down to winning, the pitcher that helped his team is by far the best.

Obviously, its easier than making an actual realistic example.

You are acknowledging that it is possible for a good player to be on a bad team? If so we`ve gotten somewhere.

Now here's another ridiculous impossible example made to illustrate a point, that ERA and wins are very flawed statistics.

Suppose a pitcher gives up 20 hits and 10 runs. However, all of those hits are swinging bunts base hits and just little driblers up the third base line that they beat out for hits. Some of them are errors to. The hitters are completely off balance and the pitcher has great control and is throwing 100 mph FB's in perfect spots so that the hitters are beating them into the ground but the third baseman is terrible and the pitcher is really unlucky with the placement of those hits. Is it the pitchers fault that runs are scoring and that his team loses the game? Anyone who's ever played baseball knows that it isn't the pitchers fault his team lost and the pitcher pitched well. I didn't do the math on the hits/runs and I know this is completely unrealistic but things like this do happen to a lesser extent.

[joek7]

Which post are you referring to? Please provide a post number. I can't read every single post in a thread, even if I'm involved.

There are quite a few posts here that I haven't replied to, but then again, if I sat around saying what's OK or not, I likely wouldn't be talking much about baseball. Since you've put yourself into a point of focus here, your posts become more noticeable, whether you agree with that thinking or not.

My viewpoint is that neither of us are in the Yankee FO, unless your name is Steinbrenner (or one of his sons), Brian Cashman, Gene "Stick" Michael, etc. You may find our views faulty, but we can just as easily say the same about yours.

I seriously don't think that you are willing to post about Jeter being defensively superior to others. I've given you quite a few chances, but other than claiming that Jeter is the superior in some areas, I haven't seen any solid examples you've mentioned why he's better, and when I see people whose opinion I'm used to and respect differing very strongly against you on games they've watched just as you have, I tend to defer to their opinions.

Right now, I'll simply ask that if you have anything to contribute to this thread, it would be specifically about the defense of Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez. If you have anything else to discuss that's already been mentioned, such as who is the most important player in the Yanks' recent winning ways, which player has been more important in leading the Yanks onward in October, I'd suggest that they be placed into a new thread.

I believe that if you wish to discuss infield defense in its entirety, then that's fine. However, simply because of injury (Garciaparra) or a trade situation (one in which salary is involved (Rodriguez)), I don't believe that's grounds for one player being superior defensively, nor would I say that their name's inclusion into this thread becomes more "worthy" based upon whether they still play SS or not. The fact of the matter is, in the AL during the late 1990s, each of Messrs Rodriguez, Tejada, Garciaparra and Jeter were the top shorts. Nothing can change this.

If you or anyone else feels that Ted Williams and/or Barry Bonds aren't amongst the most elite of outfielders who've ever played the game (or LFers, for that matter), please post those opinions into the "History" forum. I won't guarantee you that many here will agree with you, but that would be the most appropriate place to do so. Please be *VERY* prepared to defend such a viewpoint if you choose to create such a post.

Once again, let's keep this thread *STRICTLY* about infield defense, be they current Yankee SSs, past Yankee shortstops, or shortstops who've never even played for the Yankees. Many thanks, and I greatly extend in advance my appreication to you for any co-operation you may offer us on this matter.

I accept and will adhere to your suggestions in your post. One concern however, most of the points you have brought up in your post re bonds/ Williams and othe r points were brought into the thread by others who you conveniently do not address. My point whether you are willing to accept it or not is based entirely on fact, facts that have accourred and are now occurring. You may have answered the problem yourself, when you stated yoyu do not read all the posts. I do. I would not it is very hard to comment on a thread and the posters opinions when one does not read ALL the opinions and just where they may the thread and other posters. I stated my opinion on why Jeter IS the best defensive shortstop and then was bombarded with many questions by many posters taking this thread in every which direction. Interestingly, I am the one who then gets cited for responding to the questions. again, I will adhere to your suggestion.

[joek7]

I actually didn't mean offense by that. It was more a figure of speech. I'm actually taken aback that after years of being on here, at least three people with a very similar viewpoint, and dogmatic belief in it, unlike I've ever seen before, have emerged all around the same time. It's quite stunning actually and a strange coincidence.

I felt you did not mean anything by your wording, but I find it silly posters who disagree with my views are allowed to say, claim, and post almost anything, while I get cited for responding to their inquirires. See Mattingly post. You7 may have three or ofur vocal posters in this thread, but you realize there are 12 votes for Jeter, illustrating that a reasonable portion of the forum has the sense to realize Jeter is the best defensive shortstop in the game. Plus, when poster use meaningless defensive statistical trash as their 'proof', they actually have no proof, but for garbage created by some of the most ignorant people in the world. If they wish to believe it, that is their perogative, but don't ever suggest it defines the player defensively, and wish for a person that knows the game have to accept the garbage.

[joek7]

Obviously, its easier than making an actual realistic example.

You are acknowledging that it is possible for a good player to be on a bad team? If so we`ve gotten somewhere.

Now here's another ridiculous impossible example made to illustrate a point, that ERA and wins are very flawed statistics.

Suppose a pitcher gives up 20 hits and 10 runs. However, all of those hits are swinging bunts base hits and just little driblers up the third base line that they beat out for hits. Some of them are errors to. The hitters are completely off balance and the pitcher has great control and is throwing 100 mph FB's in perfect spots so that the hitters are beating them into the ground but the third baseman is terrible and the pitcher is really unlucky with the placement of those hits. Is it the pitchers fault that runs are scoring and that his team loses the game? Anyone who's ever played baseball knows that it isn't the pitchers fault his team lost and the pitcher pitched well. I didn't do the math on the hits/runs and I know this is completely unrealistic but things like this do happen to a lesser extent.

I cannot respond to your question, re Mattingly post 204. But it is alright you ask.

[TonyStarks]

DX should've made the Poll public.

[DoubleX]

I felt you did not mean anything by your wording, but I find it silly posters who disagree with my views are allowed to say, claim, and post almost anything, while I get cited for responding to their inquirires. See Mattingly post. You7 may have three or ofur vocal posters in this thread, but you realize there are 12 votes for Jeter, illustrating that a reasonable portion of the forum has the sense to realize Jeter is the best defensive shortstop in the game. Plus, when poster use meaningless defensive statistical trash as their 'proof', they actually have no proof, but for garbage created by some of the most ignorant people in the world. If they wish to believe it, that is their perogative, but don't ever suggest it defines the player defensively, and wish for a person that knows the game have to accept the garbage.

That's your opinion, but your hypocrisy is quite clear from this post. Please do no denigrate people as ignorant, that they do not know the game, and their supporting materials as trash, when in fact, you provide nothing to support your opinions except overly-simplified and convenient arguments. These type of posts of yours, of which there are several now, illustrate nothing but disrespect to others here and their viewpoints and that is why you have not been received so warmingly here. If you are not willing to listen to others and at least consider the merits of their well-reasoned opinions, then no one is going to give you any respect, especially when your opinions are devoid of any substantive reasoning. So I would say to you, if you wish to believe your overly-simplistic method and ignore everything else and offend everyone else here, that's fine, "but don't ever suggest it defines the player defensively, and wish for a person that knows the game to have to accept the garbage." You do not know more than anyone else here Joek7, and your perspective is certainly not any more enlightened than anyone else here, so stop acting like it is.

You've repeatedly shown very little interest in engaging in the intelligent conversation and exchange of ideas we pride ourselves on here, and you'd rather judge us and talk down to us. No one is going to accept and respect your view if you repeatedly show a complete unwillingness to accept and respect theirs - and you have made it abundantly clear from this post of yours and others, that you do not respect others and view everyone who disagrees with you as "ignorant" and not a knowledgeable fan of the game. Your entire presence here is a contradiction, and I have to ask, why are you here at all if you seem to have all the answers and have no interest in listening to and respecting other opinions?

If you want to espouse your "win method" that's fine, but don't for a second call any other opinion as ignorant, garbage, and a product of not being a knowledgeble fan of the game. We exchange ideas here, and your win method is just one idea among many, and no better, valid, or well-reasoned than any other perspective.

[Mattingly]

I accept and will adhere to your suggestions in your post. One concern however, most of the points you have brought up in your post re bonds/ Williams and othe r points were brought into the thread by others who you conveniently do not address. My point whether you are willing to accept it or not is based entirely on fact, facts that have accourred and are now occurring. You may have answered the problem yourself, when you stated yoyu do not read all the posts. I do. I would not it is very hard to comment on a thread and the posters opinions when one does not read ALL the opinions and just where they may the thread and other posters. I stated my opinion on why Jeter IS the best defensive shortstop and then was bombarded with many questions by many posters taking this thread in every which direction. Interestingly, I am the one who then gets cited for responding to the questions. again, I will adhere to your suggestion.

I will re-read some of the thread, but I don't find it my obligation to read all 200 posts of a single thread. There are quite a few threads in here, and I don't find it necessary or even important for me to read everything that's posted on here.

I really don't think that you have demonstrated how Jeter is the best defensive SS. You've talked about his rings, how important to the team he was, and even when I'd asked you for specific plays, you conveniently answered a question not asked: about how important he was to the team. It was myself who'd given instances of specific plays that a SS would make, and it was then and only then that you'd discussed plays. When I'd asked you why you hadn't discussed this before, you'd mentioned having done so twice, but when I asked about this, you never gave examples of this.

As to this thread getting taken in several directions, had you simply stuck to infield defense, I believe that several people here would not have felt very strongly that this thread was hijacked.

Also, since this is a discussion forum, if you make a point that's contrary to others', it's not unexpected for said others to ask you questions, and then expect some supporting logic, instances or whatever you have to offer, to demonstrate why you feel this way. Even if we disagree with your conclusion and/or logic, if we can at least respect it, then that's always a good thing. If you choose not to support an opinion contrary to what others state here, then why do you offer this opinion?

While I may not have read every single post here, of which there are over 200, I do believe I've gotten the "gist" of the matter re your points, as well as having discussed this matter privately with several respected regulars here. I've also asked you pointed questions, but so far, haven't received anything of much substance to go on.

I won't try convincing you that Alex Rodriguez is a better defensive short than is Derek Jeter, since I've seen Rodriguez when he was with Seattle and Texas, and I've see quite a few games of Derek Jeter.

I'll just end it there, and you have yourself a very nice day. Enjoy.

[Mattingly]

I cannot respond to your question, re Mattingly post 204. But it is alright you ask.

That wasn't an "order"; it was merely a suggestion that wide thread drifts be placed into separate threads.

Re this thread, created by the forumer you'd replied to, and that was a thread specifically created to allow the discussions that you'd seemingly invited, please feel free to reply there.

Another simple word of advice, which can be taken as a suggestion: I don't believe it would be a wise idea on your part to presume the lesser of the intelligence and/or baseball knowledge of the forumers here. There's a "2007 Season" thread that's stuck to this forum which contains several thousand posts. This is by fans of the team and visiting fans from other teams who are most certainly welcome here with open arms.

Please feel free to contribute to that thread, with the understanding that you are amongst very, passionate, strong and knowledgeable baseball fans who love their team, regardless of which team it may be.

Thx.

[bigbadwolf]

That's your opinion, but your hypocrisy is quite clear from this post. Please do no denigrate people as ignorant, that they do not know the game, and their supporting materials as trash, when in fact, you provide nothing to support your opinions except overly-simplified and convenient arguments. These type of posts of yours, of which there are several now, illustrate nothing but disrespect to others here and their viewpoints and that is why you have not been received so warmingly here. If you are not willing to listen to others and at least consider the merits of their well-reasoned opinions, then no one is going to give you any respect, especially when your opinions are devoid of any substantive reasoning. So I would say to you, if you wish to believe your overly-simplistic method and ignore everything else and offend everyone else here, that's fine, "but don't ever suggest it defines the player defensively, and wish for a person that knows the game to have to accept the garbage." You do not know more than anyone else here Joek7, and your perspective is certainly not any more enlightened than anyone else here, so stop acting like it is.

You've repeatedly shown very little interest in engaging in the intelligent conversation and exchange of ideas we pride ourselves on here, and you'd rather judge us and talk down to us. No one is going to accept and respect your view if you repeatedly show a complete unwillingness to accept and respect theirs - and you have made it abundantly clear from this post of yours and others, that you do not respect others and view everyone who disagrees with you as "ignorant" and not a knowledgeable fan of the game. Your entire presence here is a contradiction, and I have to ask, why are you here at all if you seem to have all the answers and have no interest in listening to and respecting other opinions?

If you want to espouse your "win method" that's fine, but don't for a second call any other opinion as ignorant, garbage, and a product of not being a knowledgeble fan of the game. We exchange ideas here, and your win method is just one idea among many, and no better, valid, or well-reasoned than any other perspective.

Hate to but in. DoubleX, the way I read joek7s post and your response, I think you are in error. joek7 did not insult anyone on the forum. He did insult the creators of statistical formulas however. I don't think he said others were not baseball knowledgable, just that he was knowlegable and could not be led astray by phony stats.

[Yankee Mystique]

Joek did you ever post on Fanhome before? Serious question.

[penneyAA]

Jeter and Arod rank at the bottom of the league defensively with Tampa's left side, who are both rookies.Jeter has no range up the middle and Arod just plain has no range.Thankfully Jeter is capable of getting to the balls that scoot by Arod's left.