View Poll Results: Lou Gehrig vs. Mickey Mantle

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  • Lou Gehrig

    64 60.38%
  • Mickey Mantle

    42 39.62%
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Thread: Lou Gehrig vs. Mickey Mantle

  1. #21
    I doubt DiMaggio would have been so loathsome, or have had enough insight for that matter, to plan out a routine F8 and make Mantle run there and plan his route so he would stop right on the sprinkler head.[/QUOTE]


    Joe was an evil god......... he planted the sprinkler.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    I'm circulating it? You're always the one saying that people misquote you... well, where am I circulating it? Where did I say I believed it? You quote the words 'well known story' like you don't agree with me saying that... is it not a well known story, TR? The three little pigs is a well known story too, doesn't mean I think it's true because I say it's well known. There ya go, putting words in people's mouths...

    I don't know if the story is true or not. I'll tell you one thing, that picture tells me absolutely nothing. How does that picture prove ANYTHING, other than Mickey falling?

    Another phony post, Westlake. After mocking me and implying my position is wrong, you now admit you have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. What a joke.

    P.S. If the photo above "tells [you] absolutely nothing", then you need more help than I can provide. Maybe you should just stick to defending Bonds.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post

    Another phony post, Westlake. After mocking me and implying my position is wrong, you now admit you have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. What a joke.

    P.S. If the below picture "tells [you] absolutely nothing", then you need more help than I can provide.
    Haha. Ok, TR. I didn't "admit" I had no evidence, because I never said I did. Where did I imply that your position was wrong? Because I don't except your side either? Now that's a joke. Just like you do with Ubi and WCOAB, you think that if someone isn't with you, they're against you. I'd rather wait to know the truth before throwing myself on one side of the fence.

    And I ask you where the proof is in the picture, and you ignore it because you can give no real explanation.
    Last edited by Westlake; 09-06-2007 at 03:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

  4. #24
    As for the argument, I'll go with Gehrig. He stayed healthy and produced EVERY year. He was far more consistent that Mantle. And you can say what you want about the era he played in, but Gehrig was at least the second best player in the league most years, and when Ruth retired, was probably the best player in the league. He was a better hitter, and I don't think it's really debatable. Mantle was better defensively and on the base paths, but Gehrig more than made up for it with his durbaility edge.
    Last edited by DiMag4Life; 09-06-2007 at 03:40 PM. Reason: t

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by AstrosFan View Post
    I'm not intending this as criticism; everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but does anyone else find this a little strange? White Knight has admitted to using three stats as his primary tools for evaluating a hitter: batting average, ability to not strike out, and RBI. He also says he prefers raw stats to adjusted ones.

    There are some who theorize that there are alternate universes populated by everyone's opposite. Have we found 538280's opposite? Those beliefs of White Knight go against everything Chris has espoused on this site. Again, I'm not being critical; I just thought it was interesting.

    Regarding Mantle vs. Gehrig:

    Gehrig has a higher OPS+ in fewer PA. He's a little better in his five best years, which will do in peak. Let's ignore league quality for the moment. Gehrig is ahead by a little as a hitter.

    As baserunners, Mantle is clearly better. We don't have grounded into double play data for Gehrig's career, but Mantle was one of the best ever at avoiding the DP. It's a safe bet that Mantle was better. Mantle stole over 150 bases at an 80% clip, Gehrig stole over 100 at a 50% clip. Sure, they're different eras, but even adjusting for that, Mantle was the better base stealer. Mantle was also faster, so we will presume he was better at taking the extra base.

    Factoring in baserunning, they're probably even offensively, again, without LQ adjustments.

    As defensive players, however, Mantle is way ahead. Gehrig wasn't a bad first baseman, but he was a first baseman, while Mantle was a center fielder. Mantle dropped off considerably in his decline phase as a fielder, but he was clearly more valuable defensively.

    If you account for the difficulty of dominating one's league increasing as time passes, that just puts Mantle further ahead. Gehrig was a great player, and an obvious choice for best 1B of all time. But Mantle was a better player. I might also add that the intangibles argument doesn't really work here, since Mantle did lead the Yankees to 12 pennants and seven World Series titles.

    Astros Fan: I want to to complement you for what I believe is a superb analysis on your part.

    I admire both these players a lot. I think you have clearly dileneated many of the main reasons why Mantle probably should be ahead. I also admire the fact that you played fair and didn't resort to speculative and self serving league quality adjustments.

    I think there might be a couple of additional points that could be made in Mantle's favor. Lou did have the luxury of batting in close proximity to the greatest hitter who ever lived, Babe Ruth. Babe was walked more times than any player in history up to that point. How many times did Lou get to bat with Babe on base after being walked? How many extra times did Lou get to face a pitcher pitching out of a stretch instead of a wind up? That is usually a distinct advantage for a hitter. By contrast, Mantle played on a lot of good teams with quality players, however he never had a batter anywhere near the Babe's caliber hitting in proximity to him. Mantle was the main hitter on his teams, the key player who the other team had to be most concerned with, while Lou first was sharing the stage with the Babe and then later with Joe D. In fact, I have always felt that one of the greatest testaments to Mantle's greatness is the fact that Roger Maris did not receive one intentional walk the season he hit his record 61 home runs, because Mantle was batting behind him.

    Also. Lou led the league in OPS+ 3 times, while Mantle led the league in OPS+ 8 times. In that regard Mantle was even more dominating in his era than Lou was in his era.

    c JRB

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    And I ask you where the proof is in the picture, and you ignore it because you can give no real explanation.
    *snickers*.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    Haha. Ok, TR. I didn't "admit" I had no evidence, because I never said I did. Where did I imply that your position was wrong? Because I don't except your side either? Now that's a joke. Just like you do with Ubi and WCOAB, you think that if someone isn't with you, they're against you. I'd rather wait to know the truth before throwing myself on one side of the fence.

    And I ask you where the proof is in the picture, and you ignore it because you can give no real explanation.
    Like I said, Westlake, if that photo "tells [you] absolutely nothing", then I can't help you. But, I will say, that, when you do "throw yourself on one side of the fence", make sure it's in the stands, and not on the field.

    With respect to my disagreement with you and Ubi and West Coast over Bonds' steroids use, I stand by my position that he cheated his way to both of his home run records. If you can't admit that Bonds cheated, you're beyond help in that regard, too. Or, if you're referring to Ubi's and West Coast's unsubstantiated charges that Hank Aaron regularly used amphetamines, I can not join in that conclusion without any verifiable evidence.
    Last edited by TRfromBR; 09-06-2007 at 03:49 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post
    Like I said, Westlake, if that photo "tells [you] absolutely nothing", then I can't help you. But, I will say, that, when you do "throw yourself on one side of the fence", make sure it's in the stands, and not on the field.

    With respect to my disagreement with you and Ubi and West Coast over Bonds' steroids use, I stand by my position that he cheated his way to both of his home run records. If you can't admit that Bonds cheated, you're beyond help in that regard, too.
    So, again, you give nothing. DiMag4life "snickers" instead of explaining it as well. I'm not surprised. No real answer, so dance around it.

    I'd also like you to find ONE of my posts that says that I think Bonds did not take steroids or did not cheat. I agree he did both. You've just proven my theory on your 'you're either with me or against me' routine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

  9. #29
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    I didn't mean to start a fight, but that photo tells me nothing, either. It's far from 'countervailing' evidence. There's no telling, in this photo, how DiMaggio necessarily came to be in that position. Joe appears to be reaching out for the ball in such a way as to 'confirm' both stories; he could have had to lunge for it at the last second when Mantle went down, or he could have been making a last-second lunge for it after belatedly calling Mantle off when it should have been Mantle's ball.

    Again, I have no horse in this race, however that picture is far from convincing evidence one way or another.
    Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours. - Yogi Berra

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    So, again, you give nothing. DiMag4life "snickers"
    Then you didn't read my post from the other page. If you don't agree with it, there's absolutely nothing me or TR can say for you to believe it. The reasoning was right there, but you choose to ignore it, then try to mock me on how I didn't provide a theory.


    *cries with laughter*

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    So, again, you give nothing. DiMag4life "snickers" instead of explaining it as well. I'm not surprised. No real answer, so dance around it.

    I'd also like you to find ONE of my posts that says that I think Bonds did not take steroids or did not cheat. I agree he did both. You've just proven my theory on your 'you're either with me or against me' routine.

    If I am mistaken that you have not defended Bonds steroid use and cheating, then I sit corrected. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else. Perhaps not. You tell me, have you not defended Bonds' steroid use and cheating? I know Ubi & West Coast - the guys you likened yourself to in this conversation - have done so incessantly. I certainly don't recall you ever disagreeing with their defense of his cheating. Have you?

    For ease of reference on this page, I'll re-post the photo of Mantle's fall, and ask you where you see any possible indication that DiMaggio caused that fall.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post

    If I am mistaken that you have not defended Bonds steroid use and cheating, then I sit corrected. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else. Perhaps not. You tell me, have you not defended Bonds' steroid use and cheating? I know Ubi & West Coast - the guys you likened yourself to in this conversation - have done so incessantly. I certainly don't recall you ever disagreeing with their defense of his cheating.

    For ease of reference on this page, I'll re-post the photo of Mantle's fall, and ask you where you see any possible indication that DiMaggio caused that fall.
    I haven't defended any steroid use or cheating, TR. I've said i'd like to know the whole truth before condemning everything the man has done... but it's pretty obvious he's a cheat.

    I don't see where DiMaggio caused the fall in the picture, but that's not what you said. You said that was proof that he didn't, which I also do not see in the picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiMag4Life View Post
    Then you didn't read my post from the other page. If you don't agree with it, there's absolutely nothing me or TR can say for you to believe it. The reasoning was right there, but you choose to ignore it, then try to mock me on how I didn't provide a theory.


    *cries with laughter*
    Quote Originally Posted by DiMag4Life View Post
    I knew this BS story (DiMaggio allegedly causing the incident) would show up again. I think we should give blame where it's due, and that's the risen sprinkler.


    And get your facts straight. Yogi Berra said "he never had to lunge....... he always caught the ball in the AIR, chest high." So I guess when he went for a shoe-string catch, he caught the ball chest high.


    Mantle, god bless him, was a pretty clumsy man. I think we shouldn't blame this on him one bit, but if you're going to make assumption, I'll join you.

    Dude muscles was even quoted as saying he was surprised that DiMaggio got even near the ball.

    He underestimated DiMaggio's range.


    *sign*.

    This one? First of all, I can't really understand a couple of the things you wrote (I doubt i'm alone in that as well). Also, where are you saying anything about the picture?
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post
    For ease of reference on this page, I'll re-post the photo of Mantle's fall, and ask you where you see any possible indication that DiMaggio caused that fall.
    DiMaggio wouldn't have had to be right on top of Mantle for him to be heard calling for a ball, if that's what happened. Mantle could have easily pulled up after hearing Joe calling for it, fell (as the photo shows), and DiMaggio could have continued running into the frame and caught the ball as shown. That picture does not prove that the fall was not caused by DiMaggio. Again, I am NOT saying that it was, only that that is a story I have heard more than once, and I've read other things about Joe D and his showboating once in a while in center. I don't demand, or even ask, that you believe it. It's out there, though. That's all I'm saying.
    Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours. - Yogi Berra

  15. #35
    Here's a post from shoeless joe in another thread. If this doesn't change your mind, literally nothing will:


    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...9&postcount=19
    Last edited by DiMag4Life; 09-06-2007 at 04:14 PM. Reason: t

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgerfan1 View Post

    There's no telling, in this photo, how DiMaggio necessarily came to be in that position.

    There's no evidence in this photo whatsoever that DiMaggio caused Mantle's fall. Mantle was clearly on the ground long before DiMaggio was anywhere near him. In fact, even at the time of his reaching catch, DiMaggio is still nowhere near Mantle. It's plain as day that Mantle went down absent of any collision with, or interference by, DiMaggio. Knowing that Mantle stepped on a drain makes this all the more apparent.

    Rather than requiring proof of a negative, where is the evidence that this story has any basis in truth?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    I haven't defended any steroid use or cheating, TR. I've said i'd like to know the whole truth before condemning everything the man has done... but it's pretty obvious he's a cheat.

    I don't see where DiMaggio caused the fall in the picture, but that's not what you said. You said that was proof that he didn't, which I also do not see in the picture.

    Okay, Westlake. I respect your positions. I'm not sure why you came out of nowhere attacking me. But, it's water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post

    There's no evidence in this photo whatsoever that DiMaggio caused Mantle's fall. Mantle was clearly on the ground long before DiMaggio was anywhere near him. In fact, even at the time of his reaching catch, DiMaggio is still nowhere near Mantle. It's plain as day that Mantle went down absent of any collision with, or interference by, DiMaggio. Knowing that Mantle stepped on a drain makes this all the more apparent.

    Rather than requiring proof of a negative, where is the evidence that this story has any basis in truth?
    Again, neither is there proof that DiMaggio did NOT cause the fall by calling Mantle off at the last second, causing Mickey to pull up prematurely. What I'm saying is that the photo is far from obvious in either respect. It only shows a snapshot in time. A fraction of a second recorded.

    In a previous post, I made an aside that the fall was probably caused by DiMaggio. I probably should have said it has been alleged by some to have been caused by Joe. Still, in either case, you would have strongly disagreed and we would still be having this debate. You say I can't prove a negative. You are absolutely right, and I never said I could. You, however, in trying to prove a positive, have also failed to do so. That picture does not constitute any proof whatsoever that DiMaggio did NOT call Mantle off, causing him to pull up, so you haven't proven anything either.

    Let's call a truce, please, because this is starting to give me a headache. It's far afield from the topic and is unproveable by anything either of us have said or shown.
    Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours. - Yogi Berra

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post

    Okay, Westlake. I respect your positions. I'm not sure why you came out of nowhere attacking me. But, it's water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned.
    My apologies. This thread is not about JoeD, so lets swing it back to Mantle and Gehrig.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgerfan1 View Post
    DiMaggio wouldn't have had to be right on top of Mantle for him to be heard calling for a ball, if that's what happened. Mantle could have easily pulled up after hearing Joe calling for it, fell (as the photo shows), and DiMaggio could have continued running into the frame and caught the ball as shown. That picture does not prove that the fall was not caused by DiMaggio. Again, I am NOT saying that it was, only that that is a story I have heard more than once, and I've read other things about Joe D and his showboating once in a while in center. I don't demand, or even ask, that you believe it. It's out there, though. That's all I'm saying.
    That's a lot of if's-maybe's-and-could have's, DF1. This photo definitely shifts the burden of proof to those who contend DiMaggio caused Mantle's fall. There's absolutely nothing in it that indicates Dimaggio was in the wrong. Everything indicates Mantle took a fall independent of where DiMaggio was located. Mantle stepped on a sprinkler or drain.

    Again, with regard to DiMaggio "showboating" in centerfield, when precisely did this occur? I don't recall ever hearing that particular accusation before.

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