View Poll Results: Lou Gehrig vs. Mickey Mantle

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  • Lou Gehrig

    63 60.00%
  • Mickey Mantle

    42 40.00%
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Thread: Lou Gehrig vs. Mickey Mantle

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    And I ask you where the proof is in the picture, and you ignore it because you can give no real explanation.
    *snickers*.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    Haha. Ok, TR. I didn't "admit" I had no evidence, because I never said I did. Where did I imply that your position was wrong? Because I don't except your side either? Now that's a joke. Just like you do with Ubi and WCOAB, you think that if someone isn't with you, they're against you. I'd rather wait to know the truth before throwing myself on one side of the fence.

    And I ask you where the proof is in the picture, and you ignore it because you can give no real explanation.
    Like I said, Westlake, if that photo "tells [you] absolutely nothing", then I can't help you. But, I will say, that, when you do "throw yourself on one side of the fence", make sure it's in the stands, and not on the field.

    With respect to my disagreement with you and Ubi and West Coast over Bonds' steroids use, I stand by my position that he cheated his way to both of his home run records. If you can't admit that Bonds cheated, you're beyond help in that regard, too. Or, if you're referring to Ubi's and West Coast's unsubstantiated charges that Hank Aaron regularly used amphetamines, I can not join in that conclusion without any verifiable evidence.
    Last edited by TRfromBR; 09-06-2007 at 03:49 PM.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post
    Like I said, Westlake, if that photo "tells [you] absolutely nothing", then I can't help you. But, I will say, that, when you do "throw yourself on one side of the fence", make sure it's in the stands, and not on the field.

    With respect to my disagreement with you and Ubi and West Coast over Bonds' steroids use, I stand by my position that he cheated his way to both of his home run records. If you can't admit that Bonds cheated, you're beyond help in that regard, too.
    So, again, you give nothing. DiMag4life "snickers" instead of explaining it as well. I'm not surprised. No real answer, so dance around it.

    I'd also like you to find ONE of my posts that says that I think Bonds did not take steroids or did not cheat. I agree he did both. You've just proven my theory on your 'you're either with me or against me' routine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

  4. #29
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    I didn't mean to start a fight, but that photo tells me nothing, either. It's far from 'countervailing' evidence. There's no telling, in this photo, how DiMaggio necessarily came to be in that position. Joe appears to be reaching out for the ball in such a way as to 'confirm' both stories; he could have had to lunge for it at the last second when Mantle went down, or he could have been making a last-second lunge for it after belatedly calling Mantle off when it should have been Mantle's ball.

    Again, I have no horse in this race, however that picture is far from convincing evidence one way or another.
    Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours. - Yogi Berra

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    So, again, you give nothing. DiMag4life "snickers"
    Then you didn't read my post from the other page. If you don't agree with it, there's absolutely nothing me or TR can say for you to believe it. The reasoning was right there, but you choose to ignore it, then try to mock me on how I didn't provide a theory.


    *cries with laughter*

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    So, again, you give nothing. DiMag4life "snickers" instead of explaining it as well. I'm not surprised. No real answer, so dance around it.

    I'd also like you to find ONE of my posts that says that I think Bonds did not take steroids or did not cheat. I agree he did both. You've just proven my theory on your 'you're either with me or against me' routine.

    If I am mistaken that you have not defended Bonds steroid use and cheating, then I sit corrected. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else. Perhaps not. You tell me, have you not defended Bonds' steroid use and cheating? I know Ubi & West Coast - the guys you likened yourself to in this conversation - have done so incessantly. I certainly don't recall you ever disagreeing with their defense of his cheating. Have you?

    For ease of reference on this page, I'll re-post the photo of Mantle's fall, and ask you where you see any possible indication that DiMaggio caused that fall.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post

    If I am mistaken that you have not defended Bonds steroid use and cheating, then I sit corrected. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else. Perhaps not. You tell me, have you not defended Bonds' steroid use and cheating? I know Ubi & West Coast - the guys you likened yourself to in this conversation - have done so incessantly. I certainly don't recall you ever disagreeing with their defense of his cheating.

    For ease of reference on this page, I'll re-post the photo of Mantle's fall, and ask you where you see any possible indication that DiMaggio caused that fall.
    I haven't defended any steroid use or cheating, TR. I've said i'd like to know the whole truth before condemning everything the man has done... but it's pretty obvious he's a cheat.

    I don't see where DiMaggio caused the fall in the picture, but that's not what you said. You said that was proof that he didn't, which I also do not see in the picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiMag4Life View Post
    Then you didn't read my post from the other page. If you don't agree with it, there's absolutely nothing me or TR can say for you to believe it. The reasoning was right there, but you choose to ignore it, then try to mock me on how I didn't provide a theory.


    *cries with laughter*
    Quote Originally Posted by DiMag4Life View Post
    I knew this BS story (DiMaggio allegedly causing the incident) would show up again. I think we should give blame where it's due, and that's the risen sprinkler.


    And get your facts straight. Yogi Berra said "he never had to lunge....... he always caught the ball in the AIR, chest high." So I guess when he went for a shoe-string catch, he caught the ball chest high.


    Mantle, god bless him, was a pretty clumsy man. I think we shouldn't blame this on him one bit, but if you're going to make assumption, I'll join you.

    Dude muscles was even quoted as saying he was surprised that DiMaggio got even near the ball.

    He underestimated DiMaggio's range.


    *sign*.

    This one? First of all, I can't really understand a couple of the things you wrote (I doubt i'm alone in that as well). Also, where are you saying anything about the picture?
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post
    For ease of reference on this page, I'll re-post the photo of Mantle's fall, and ask you where you see any possible indication that DiMaggio caused that fall.
    DiMaggio wouldn't have had to be right on top of Mantle for him to be heard calling for a ball, if that's what happened. Mantle could have easily pulled up after hearing Joe calling for it, fell (as the photo shows), and DiMaggio could have continued running into the frame and caught the ball as shown. That picture does not prove that the fall was not caused by DiMaggio. Again, I am NOT saying that it was, only that that is a story I have heard more than once, and I've read other things about Joe D and his showboating once in a while in center. I don't demand, or even ask, that you believe it. It's out there, though. That's all I'm saying.
    Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours. - Yogi Berra

  10. #35
    Here's a post from shoeless joe in another thread. If this doesn't change your mind, literally nothing will:


    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...9&postcount=19
    Last edited by DiMag4Life; 09-06-2007 at 04:14 PM. Reason: t

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgerfan1 View Post

    There's no telling, in this photo, how DiMaggio necessarily came to be in that position.

    There's no evidence in this photo whatsoever that DiMaggio caused Mantle's fall. Mantle was clearly on the ground long before DiMaggio was anywhere near him. In fact, even at the time of his reaching catch, DiMaggio is still nowhere near Mantle. It's plain as day that Mantle went down absent of any collision with, or interference by, DiMaggio. Knowing that Mantle stepped on a drain makes this all the more apparent.

    Rather than requiring proof of a negative, where is the evidence that this story has any basis in truth?

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    I haven't defended any steroid use or cheating, TR. I've said i'd like to know the whole truth before condemning everything the man has done... but it's pretty obvious he's a cheat.

    I don't see where DiMaggio caused the fall in the picture, but that's not what you said. You said that was proof that he didn't, which I also do not see in the picture.

    Okay, Westlake. I respect your positions. I'm not sure why you came out of nowhere attacking me. But, it's water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post

    There's no evidence in this photo whatsoever that DiMaggio caused Mantle's fall. Mantle was clearly on the ground long before DiMaggio was anywhere near him. In fact, even at the time of his reaching catch, DiMaggio is still nowhere near Mantle. It's plain as day that Mantle went down absent of any collision with, or interference by, DiMaggio. Knowing that Mantle stepped on a drain makes this all the more apparent.

    Rather than requiring proof of a negative, where is the evidence that this story has any basis in truth?
    Again, neither is there proof that DiMaggio did NOT cause the fall by calling Mantle off at the last second, causing Mickey to pull up prematurely. What I'm saying is that the photo is far from obvious in either respect. It only shows a snapshot in time. A fraction of a second recorded.

    In a previous post, I made an aside that the fall was probably caused by DiMaggio. I probably should have said it has been alleged by some to have been caused by Joe. Still, in either case, you would have strongly disagreed and we would still be having this debate. You say I can't prove a negative. You are absolutely right, and I never said I could. You, however, in trying to prove a positive, have also failed to do so. That picture does not constitute any proof whatsoever that DiMaggio did NOT call Mantle off, causing him to pull up, so you haven't proven anything either.

    Let's call a truce, please, because this is starting to give me a headache. It's far afield from the topic and is unproveable by anything either of us have said or shown.
    Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours. - Yogi Berra

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRfromBR View Post

    Okay, Westlake. I respect your positions. I'm not sure why you came out of nowhere attacking me. But, it's water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned.
    My apologies. This thread is not about JoeD, so lets swing it back to Mantle and Gehrig.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgerfan1 View Post
    DiMaggio wouldn't have had to be right on top of Mantle for him to be heard calling for a ball, if that's what happened. Mantle could have easily pulled up after hearing Joe calling for it, fell (as the photo shows), and DiMaggio could have continued running into the frame and caught the ball as shown. That picture does not prove that the fall was not caused by DiMaggio. Again, I am NOT saying that it was, only that that is a story I have heard more than once, and I've read other things about Joe D and his showboating once in a while in center. I don't demand, or even ask, that you believe it. It's out there, though. That's all I'm saying.
    That's a lot of if's-maybe's-and-could have's, DF1. This photo definitely shifts the burden of proof to those who contend DiMaggio caused Mantle's fall. There's absolutely nothing in it that indicates Dimaggio was in the wrong. Everything indicates Mantle took a fall independent of where DiMaggio was located. Mantle stepped on a sprinkler or drain.

    Again, with regard to DiMaggio "showboating" in centerfield, when precisely did this occur? I don't recall ever hearing that particular accusation before.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Westlake View Post
    My apologies. This thread is not about JoeD, so lets swing it back to Mantle and Gehrig.
    My apologies, also, Westlake. Back to Mantle and Gehrig it is.

  17. #42
    In light of our discussions concerning the photographic record, Shoeless Joe's citation of Mickey's own words make it doubly certain that Dimaggio did not cause Mantle's fall. Likewise, there's no evidence of any "intentionally late starts" or "showboating" on the part of DiMaggio - in the '51 World Series, or at any other time during his career. Such attacks on his character are totally false and warranted.

    http:<font color="Red">//www.basebal...ount=19</font>

  18. #43


    [In final reply to Dodgerfan1]

    In further support of my points concerning the photographic record, Shoeless Joe's citation of Mickey's own words make it doubly certain that Dimaggio did not cause Mantle's fall. Likewise, there's no evidence whatsoever of any "intentionally late starts" or "showboating" on the part of DiMaggio - on May's fly, in the '51World Series, or at any other time during his stellar fielding career. Such assaults on his character are totally false and warranted.


    _______________________________ http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...9&postcount=19 ______________________________
    Last edited by TRfromBR; 09-06-2007 at 09:44 PM.

  19. #44
    Back to the Gehrig vs Mantle part of the thread, I voted for Mickey. I am a big Gehrig fan and find him to be a most admirable superstar. But like a lot of kids back then, I wanted to be Mickey Mantle when I was young.

    Gehrig's OPS+ edge is a wash to me when you factor in LQ adjustments and positional adjustments (OK, I know I lost White Knight right there). With the OPS+ about even, Mantle is clearly the more valuable player on defense. In terms of Win Shares, Mantle leads in Career WS, top 5 seasons, and WS per 162 games. I agree they are fairly close, but I am comfortable casting my vote for Mickey.

  20. #45
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    They are pretty even in my mind. They both even have "what ifs" about their careers.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST View Post
    They are pretty even in my mind. They both even have "what ifs" about their careers.
    Not really pretty even. Gehrig may have had his career cut short, but you can fill in the blanks. He was so consistent, it's hardly an "if" to whether he'd remain productive. And he still had a productive, healthy career, I'll take that over a bundle of Mantle's "what-ifs."


    My original post:

    As for the argument, I'll go with Gehrig. He stayed healthy and produced EVERY year. He was far more consistent that Mantle. And you can say what you want about the era he played in, but Gehrig was at least the second best player in the league most years, and when Ruth retired, was probably the best player in the league. He was a better hitter, and I don't think it's really debatable. Mantle was better defensively and on the base paths, but Gehrig more than made up for it with his durbaility edge.
    Last edited by DiMag4Life; 09-06-2007 at 10:58 PM. Reason: t

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    Also. Lou led the league in OPS+ 3 times, while Mantle led the league in OPS+ 8 times. In that regard Mantle was even more dominating in his era than Lou was in his era.

    c JRB
    Is that really fair, considering Gehrig had Ruth, Foxx and Greenberg, just to name three, as direct contemporaries? Not to pick and choose your points, but there is a very distinct reason Mantle was more dominant in his era than Gehrig was in in his, and that should not be considered a strike against Gehrig. If Mantle were in the NL, with Aaron and Mays and Musial, would he still be considered that dominant?

    Anybody familiar with the word accident?
    Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
    Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
    Robin JEDI

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiMag4Life View Post
    I doubt DiMaggio would have been so loathsome, or have had enough insight for that matter, to plan out a routine F8 and make Mantle run there and plan his route so he would stop right on the sprinkler head.



    Joe was an evil god......... he planted the sprinkler.[/QUOTE]

    Joe left a plate of spaghetti out there for Mick to slip on, then had his trained attack crabs rush out to snip Mantle's knee ligaments with their claws.

    Wonder if Mantle ever visited DiMaggio's On The Wharf..."Hey, Mick, you throwing at me?!!??! That's not sportsmanlike...Vinnie, Dom, put him out in the crab cooler, see if he likes that..."


    Also, if 538280 and White Knight ever met, would the result be a disastrous matter-antimatter explosion?!?!?
    Last edited by hellborn; 09-07-2007 at 05:56 AM.

  24. #49
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    is this post some kind of joke? I know you people dont place much emphasis on these stats, but we are comparing a guy with a .340 lifetime average despite playing EVERY SINGLE GAME, to a guy with a .298 average who was injured every year. Not to mention Gehrig had about as many 170 RBI seasons as Mantle had 100 RBI seasons. I dont care how many era adjustments you want to make, these players arent comparable.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    is this post some kind of joke? I know you people dont place much emphasis on these stats, but we are comparing a guy with a .340 lifetime average despite playing EVERY SINGLE GAME, to a guy with a .298 average who was injured every year. Not to mention Gehrig had about as many 170 RBI seasons as Mantle had 100 RBI seasons. I dont care how many era adjustments you want to make, these players arent comparable.
    Yeah, and guys like Ruth, Foxx, Greenberg, Klein, and Hack Wilson were banging out those 170 RBI seasons in Gehrig's era, too. The only guys who were getting anywhere near that total around Mantle's time were a few guys with the Bosox when they had an absolutely crazy offense in a cozy home park for a few years before Mantle debuted.
    You also gotta look at who they had to drive in...Gehrig got to bat behind Ruth and his incredible OBP, and Combs was a pretty good leadoff man with OBPs around .400 . I might need correction on this, but I think that Richardson and Kubek batted in front of Mantle for several years...these guys were good ballplayers, but not really suited to bat 1 and 2. I strongly believe that Gehrig had vastly more opportunities to drive in runners than Mantle, and was also more likely to be more efficient at driving in runs in part because of the favorable conditions for offense in his time.
    Plus, Mantle was a good CF, Gehrig was a good 1B...wouldn't you take a CF, all else being equal?
    I think that this is a fair and fascinating comparison, and a lot of other knowledgeable posters seem to feel that way, too.

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