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Thread: Wmlb?

  1. #1
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    Wmlb?

    I have never posted in this forum before, so sorry if it is a little "off." I just wanted to know why there was never a Womens' MLB. there are leagues for women in many other sports.
    If the answer is because, "women aren't strong enough", then couldn't diamonds be made with 75 feet to ach abse, or maybe 350 feet to center field to leave the park? I was just always curious.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  2. #2
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    Short answer I guess is the dominance of softball as a female sport.

  3. #3
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    A slightly longer answer might be in order to have a WMLB league you first must have WLL and HS baseball women's teams to help feed into it. Softball became the sport for HS girls many years ago.

    If you read some of NotAboutEgo threads you will see how women were discouraged from forming baseball teams since the 1800's. The All American Baseball League was an attempt to have women play high level professional baseball.

  4. #4

    As a female player...

    There was the aagpbl that was not even played on full size diamonds during ww2.

    From seeing women's baseball develop in the last ten years it still has a long way to go to get to the skill level of the guys and something that people would be willing to pay for to watch.

    Just my humble opinion.

    Even the women's fastpitch professional league that is in current existence does not bring in to many ticket sales.

    In terms of women's strength levels they do perfectly fine on the large field. Playing on a downsized field would be very dangerous as it is in fastpitch softball currently.

  5. #5
    NotAboutEgo Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    I have never posted in this forum before, so sorry if it is a little "off." I just wanted to know why there was never a Womens' MLB. there are leagues for women in many other sports.
    If the answer is because, "women aren't strong enough", then couldn't diamonds be made with 75 feet to ach abse, or maybe 350 feet to center field to leave the park? I was just always curious.
    It's not because of the lack of strength of women playing on regulation size fields. I've been playing women's hardball since 1999, and there are plenty of women who are strong enough, talented enough, and skilled enough to handle playing on regulation size fields. It's nothing more than a matter of adjusting to the larger diamond as compared to softball. There are many women who are stronger than many guys on the baseball field... and that goes for skill as well as for talent, too.

    In researching the history of women's baseball and women's softball, women started playing organized baseball around 1830... at the same time men started playing it. The first women's collegiate baseball team was formed at Vassar College in 1866. The Bloomer Girls women's baseball teams survived from 1890 to 1935... 45 years. Between the Vassar College team and the Bloomer Girls teams were several other teams, including teams for African American women like the Dolly Vardens.

    When the depression hit, women's and men's baseball pretty much ended for a while. Afterward, men's teams started to form again, but the story is much different for women. That's when women were really discouraged from playing baseball and started being pushed into softball. Softball was invented in the early 1900's, but at first, it was men who played it. Then, not long after, the status quo of the times pretty much forced women to play it instead of baseball.

    Even though women faced a lot of adversary for playing baseball before the depression, because it wasn't considered to be "ladylike", it was successful in different ways. Many women made their livings by playing pro baseball, and many paid their way through college by playing it. It wasn't until after that, along with the invention of softball, that things got really ugly.

    Not much happened in the way of women's baseball after the Bloomer Girls teams disappeared and when the AAGPBL was formed... except for some women playing here and there. There were some African American women who played professionally in the Negro Leagues.

    When looking at the history behind things like women's baseball and what has happened and what hasn't up to the present, we have to look at the state of our society along the way. What has happened with women's baseball is a direct reflection of the status quo of our society, as is pretty much anything else that is a part of our culture.

    There were some women who were signed to minor league and even MLB contracts in the first half of the 1900's, but their contracts ended up being voided by the baseball commissioners, and a ban was placed on women playing in MLB in 1952, and that ban still remains today. If women weren't good enough to play in MLB or in the minors, why would there be the need of a ban for them playing in MLB? That seems like quite an oxymoron to me.

    During a women's baseball tourney that my team played in back in June in Detroit, vs. the Chicago Gems, several women from the Gems came pretty close to clobbering the ball over the fence... a fence that is at least 315 down the LF line (I don't remember the exact distance, but it's at least 315). They hit the ball to the warning track, fly balls... and that's off pitches that were only in the mid-60's. I was hoping one of them would hit a homerun, just so I could see it. Some of the most fundamentally sound baseball I've seen has been in women's games. A few of the women's teams that are the most fundamentally sound that I've seen are the East Coast Red Sox, the Nashua Pride Pioneers, and the Royal York Cardinals. They would rival most any men's amateur team (not including college or Olympic teams). Some of the most power I've seen in women's baseball comes from the Chicago Gems.

    There's no doubt that women can play baseball at high levels and hit legit homeruns and make all the other plays on the same size diamonds that men play on. Is women's baseball still in development, like captlid suggested? Yes, of course it is... given the history of it. Can women's baseball continue to get better and better... of course. I've been around women's baseball since 1998, and I've seen tremendous development and improvement in that time. There are countless numbers of us who are doing what we can to help and contribute. It all takes time, like anything else. The biggest effort comes in shattering the stereotypes and the status quo that have been in existence for so long.

    I've seen a lot of men's amateur baseball, and not all of it is high-quality baseball. Most of it is somewhere in the middle between good and bad. Many people assume that if men are playing a sport, including baseball, the games are always good quality. That's not the case.
    Last edited by NotAboutEgo; 09-11-2007 at 07:29 AM.

  6. #6
    NotAboutEgo Guest
    Even with women being pushed into softball after the despression, they faced a lot of adversary to play interscholastic softball. Girls formed scholastic teams and started playing, but school officals were adamant about not wanting them to play. It wasn't until around 1960 that schools started officially opening their doors to women's scholastic softball (and probably to other women's sports as well).

    Women have always had to fight to be able to play sports, especially baseball, and the fight isn't completely over with. Even in the times of the ancient Olympics, women had to go off to form their own Olympic competitions to be able to participate in sport as men did. These factors and others are what have influenced things like why there isn't a WMLB.

  7. #7
    NotAboutEgo Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyK View Post
    A slightly longer answer might be in order to have a WMLB league you first must have WLL and HS baseball women's teams to help feed into it. Softball became the sport for HS girls many years ago.

    If you read some of NotAboutEgo threads you will see how women were discouraged from forming baseball teams since the 1800's. The All American Baseball League was an attempt to have women play high level professional baseball.
    You are exactly right, TonyK. Girls' baseball needs to become abundant at the youth league level, in high school, and in college (along with creating a minor league system) in order to support a legitimate WMLB. There are several women's amateur teams and leagues around the U.S. at the present, and the numbers continue to grow. There are a handful of girls' youth leagues, and those numbers continue to grow slowly. Several thousand girls play high school baseball around the country, and a handful of women are playing collegiate baseball... some on scholarship. All of those numbers continue to grow as well.

    Little League, Inc. is now considering creating a separate girls' baseball division (stemming from a huge amount of pressure from women's baseball advocates and organizers) to help the growth of girls' baseball. Once this happens, it's going to be a snowball effect. Girls' leagues will grow, and then girls' high school baseball and women's college baseball will be born. We already have a women's national baseball team, and USA Baseball is starting to develop women's programs for the 15U level. It only makes sense that the rest will follow.

    It's really hard to understand why some people are so insecure with certain things happening, such as women's baseball. I know it's all about insecurity, but it's very hard to comprehend why people wouldn't want the best for others as well as for themselves. I guess I'm not the norm in the way I think.
    Last edited by NotAboutEgo; 09-11-2007 at 07:31 AM.

  8. #8

    question for NAE

    Did the girls who hit the ball a bit over 315 feet do it with wood?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  9. #9
    NotAboutEgo Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by captlid View Post
    Did the girls who hit the ball a bit over 315 feet do it with wood?

    Inquiring minds want to know.
    As I remember it, they were using composite bats. Most women who play baseball currently are using composite instead of wood... I'm assuming because of the cost factor of wood bats breaking. Perhaps women's baseball will go to all wood someday.

    As I stated in a post in another thread, I've used the Brett bats before, and I was able to hit just as well with it as with composite. I know they have a fiberglass shell over the wood, but I don't know if this adds any pop when hitting the ball. Using the Brett bats feels the same as using regular wood bats, though.

  10. #10
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    "Little League, Inc. is now considering creating a separate girls' baseball division (stemming from a huge amount of pressure from women's baseball advocates and organizers) to help the growth of girls' baseball. Once this happens, it's going to be a snowball effect. Girls' leagues will grow, and then girls' high school baseball and women's college baseball will be born."

    This is already creating discussions about whether or not girls belong on boy's LL baseball teams. I think LL Inc. my have to adjust league boundaries since 200 to 400 girls may not all join baseball teams at once and forget about softball. My local LL would likely field 2 or 3 girls baseball teams per age level and they would play against the nearest LL's.

    Whenever you upset the apple cart remember that the attacks are not directed at you personally but on the position you have taken.

  11. #11
    NotAboutEgo Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyK View Post
    "Little League, Inc. is now considering creating a separate girls' baseball division (stemming from a huge amount of pressure from women's baseball advocates and organizers) to help the growth of girls' baseball. Once this happens, it's going to be a snowball effect. Girls' leagues will grow, and then girls' high school baseball and women's college baseball will be born."

    This is already creating discussions about whether or not girls belong on boy's LL baseball teams. I think LL Inc. my have to adjust league boundaries since 200 to 400 girls may not all join baseball teams at once and forget about softball. My local LL would likely field 2 or 3 girls baseball teams per age level and they would play against the nearest LL's.

    Whenever you upset the apple cart remember that the attacks are not directed at you personally but on the position you have taken.
    While I agree with what you are saying, no one is asking girls to drop softball all together, especially when it comes to creating and developing girls' youth baseball leagues... even within the LL, Inc. system. I understand that isn't the point of your post, but most people think that advocates, organizers, and supports of girls' and women's baseball are out to abolish softball and are trying to get girls to convert to baseball and forget softball, when that isn't the case at all.

    The goal is to provide girls with baseball opportunities when they choose to have those... along with softball. And, from my experience and background in women's baseball, I know there is plenty of interest for girls to play baseball. It may not be the case in every corner of the U.S., but it is the case in enough areas to support girls' leagues... and it will grow over time. The numbers of girls currently playing baseball will tell you that, and there are even more who want to play baseball but who don't have the opportunity to do so.

    I know that attacks aren't personal when it comes to breaking down barriers. I have learned that over time through experience. That still doesn't make it easy to comprehend, and I wasn't speaking of anything personal. I was speaking of the way the majority of people in our society think.

    The whole point is, plenty of girls want to play baseball and therefore, they should have the opportunity to do so... point blank. Those who aren't comfortable with it or secure enough to handle opening their minds to that will just have to learn how to deal with it or ignore it all together. The world isn't going to stop because of them.

  12. #12
    It's not because of the lack of strength of women playing on regulation size fields. I've been playing women's hardball since 1999, and there are plenty of women who are strong enough, talented enough, and skilled enough to handle playing on regulation size fields. It's nothing more than a matter of adjusting to the larger diamond as compared to softball. There are many women who are stronger than many guys on the baseball field... and that goes for skill as well as for talent, too.
    I am sorry, but I don't buy that. I am not sexist, but just take a quick glance at the LLWS and the LL Softball WS. You will see a huge gap in terms of both talent and strength. To find some way to make them face off would be a joke, the men would dominate like pro's playing middle schoolers.

  13. #13
    NotAboutEgo Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Charger567 View Post
    I am sorry, but I don't buy that. I am not sexist, but just take a quick glance at the LLWS and the LL Softball WS. You will see a huge gap in terms of both talent and strength. To find some way to make them face off would be a joke, the men would dominate like pro's playing middle schoolers.
    First of all, the thread is about why there isn't a WMLB... not about "making" girls and boys face off. I mentioned my experience of seeing and participating in games where men and women play together... baseball, not softball... and the women who play have absolutely no problem hanging with the guys. I mentioned this to point out that the reason there is no WMLB at this time has nothing to do with the strength issue... because the person who started this thread was wondering about it.

    Secondly, comparing men and women playing together to pro's playing middle schoolers is so far off the map, it isn't funny. In order to form an opinion, one should actually go out and watch women play. I'm not talking about women who don't have experience playing baseball and who are trying it for the first time, either. Some of the most fundamentally sound baseball games I've seen are women's games. Sure, guys may have more core strength than women on average, but strength doesn't correlate into talent or fundamentals.

    Currently, there are girls' youth baseball teams that are competing in youth baseball competitions made up of mostly boys' baseball teams. These girls teams are beating some of the boys' teams. Considering that most girls have less experience playing baseball than boys do, it shows that girls can compete with them and be successful. The competition will get better the more girls grow up playing baseball as boys do.

    Also, talent has nothing to do with gender. You are suggesting that males are born with natural talent but girls are not. That is completely inaccurate.
    Last edited by NotAboutEgo; 09-13-2007 at 06:12 AM.

  14. #14
    All I am saying is, I don't see any talent besides the pitching in the little league softball world series. Some of the girls seem uncoordinated, slow, and talentless. Again, I am not sexist, I just think there aren't too many girls who could compete. Maybe I am just used to my citie's softball program, with girls who can barely catch, are terrified of pop ups, and will only get a hit if they hit the ball fair. Not suggesting it is always like this, but I would just think my city of 100,000 could find some more talent.

  15. #15
    NotAboutEgo Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Charger567 View Post
    All I am saying is, I don't see any talent besides the pitching in the little league softball world series. Some of the girls seem uncoordinated, slow, and talentless. Again, I am not sexist, I just think there aren't too many girls who could compete. Maybe I am just used to my citie's softball program, with girls who can barely catch, are terrified of pop ups, and will only get a hit if they hit the ball fair. Not suggesting it is always like this, but I would just think my city of 100,000 could find some more talent.
    I've seen so many female baseball players with tons of talent... from around the U.S., Canada, and Australia. Many of the women's teams I've played against and have seen play could beat many men's amateur teams hands down, because they are better players and have better fundamentals and mechanics.

    The comments we hear most from umpires who work both women's and men's games tell us that women focus on fundamentals and mechanics more than men do, and therefore, a lot of times they are better ballplayers.

    As I've stated before, talent has nothing to do with gender. There are males with talent and there are females with talent. It's what you do with the talent that matters. Perhaps the girls in your league aren't that good because they have little or no experience and therefore are intimidated. If all the girls in your league played college softball, I'm sure the story would be much different.

  16. #16
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    Baseball and softball are two entirely DIFFERENT games. Just because you seen a couple of women play softball, shouldn't automatically assume that's how she would play in baseball.

    In softball, I can only play catcher. That's it. I'm completely useless in a softball game otherwise.

    In baseball I can play most positions with the exception of 3rd base and short stop.

    It's a big difference.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by NotAboutEgo View Post
    These girls teams are beating some of the boys' teams.
    What age???

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utility07 View Post
    What age???
    Read what she said in entirely:

    "Currently, there are girls' youth baseball teams that are competing in youth baseball competitions made up of mostly boys' baseball teams. These girls teams are beating some of the boys' teams."

    She wasn't referring to women. LL goes to a certain age. And in that age.... since girls develop stronger and better than boys do at that age (don't look at me, it's a scientific fact).... it doesn't matter what age. Little League, is still... Little League.

  19. #19
    Does it go to 11? Because at that age, the girls are becoming women, and the boys arent going to become men for 2 more years. Girls are hitting puberty earlier and earlier due to hormones in our foods, and the boys dont seem to be effected as much.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utility07 View Post
    Does it go to 11? Because at that age, the girls are becoming women, and the boys arent going to become men for 2 more years. Girls are hitting puberty earlier and earlier due to hormones in our foods, and the boys dont seem to be effected as much.
    Hormones in our food or not.... it's nothing new or shocking about the scientific fact that girls will mature before boys. Always have been like that.


    As far as what age Little League goes up to, I don't know. And what difference would it make in your argument? If anything you just SUPPORTED the argument of girls baseball teams in Little League.... after all... you just said it yourself that they're stronger. So why cant they have their own division within the league?

  21. #21
    Because it would have to be during softball season.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotAboutEgo View Post
    I've seen so many female baseball players with tons of talent... from around the U.S., Canada, and Australia. Many of the women's teams I've played against and have seen play could beat many men's amateur teams hands down, because they are better players and have better fundamentals and mechanics.
    But the womens teams you are seeing are the cream of the crop. The mens amateur teams you have seen are nowhere near the cream of the crop of mens teams. They are comprised of players not even good enough to make the lowest rung of professional baseball, unless it's a summer collegiate league in which case I doubt your teams are better.

    Isn't it true when you see these womens teams, you are seeing some of the best womens players in existence? When you see a mens amateur team, aren't you seeing just one team of a league of about 8 teams? Now if you take the best women all on one team, I can believe they can compete. But suppose they wanted to expand the league so there were 8 mens teams and 8 womens teams, with 4 of each in two different divisions.

    In such a league, you would now need 120 women, assuming 15-person rosters. If you want to take the cream of the crop of womens players and join the league, they might be competitive. I don't see you filling out 8 teams and being competitive. (I'm not talking about a call to all women in the world to play in this league. I'm just talking about the females in the general area of this league -- the same geographic area in which the men come from; remember, this is just a local amateur league.)

    As far as women having better mechanics and fundamentals than men, I assume you are comparing amateur teams again. That I can believe. Why? Because in my experience with amateur leagues, the men aren't out there to prove anything. They are out there for fun. Some guys go up there to try to jack the ball out of the park every time. It's just a fun way for them to play a little baseball. However, if you are talking about summer collegiate leagues, like the Cape Cod League, I'd love to see womens teams as fundamentally and mechanically sound as those players.

    But the real issue here is why isn't there a womens MLB. I am assuming that M is for Major and not Minor. The simple reason is that even if your teams are better than mens amateur teams, they are nowhere near the level of mens MLB. That alone makes it a hard sell.

    I know baseball and softball are different, but I've been to major division ASA national womens softball tournaments. Other than spouses and kids, the paying attendance is less than 10. How would you propose to draw crowds for a womens MLB?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utility07 View Post
    Because it would have to be during softball season.
    and that has to do with ANYTHING because..... ???????

  24. #24
    NotAboutEgo Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Macker View Post
    But the womens teams you are seeing are the cream of the crop. The mens amateur teams you have seen are nowhere near the cream of the crop of mens teams. They are comprised of players not even good enough to make the lowest rung of professional baseball, unless it's a summer collegiate league in which case I doubt your teams are better.

    Isn't it true when you see these womens teams, you are seeing some of the best womens players in existence? When you see a mens amateur team, aren't you seeing just one team of a league of about 8 teams? Now if you take the best women all on one team, I can believe they can compete. But suppose they wanted to expand the league so there were 8 mens teams and 8 womens teams, with 4 of each in two different divisions.

    In such a league, you would now need 120 women, assuming 15-person rosters. If you want to take the cream of the crop of womens players and join the league, they might be competitive. I don't see you filling out 8 teams and being competitive. (I'm not talking about a call to all women in the world to play in this league. I'm just talking about the females in the general area of this league -- the same geographic area in which the men come from; remember, this is just a local amateur league.)

    As far as women having better mechanics and fundamentals than men, I assume you are comparing amateur teams again. That I can believe. Why? Because in my experience with amateur leagues, the men aren't out there to prove anything. They are out there for fun. Some guys go up there to try to jack the ball out of the park every time. It's just a fun way for them to play a little baseball. However, if you are talking about summer collegiate leagues, like the Cape Cod League, I'd love to see womens teams as fundamentally and mechanically sound as those players.

    But the real issue here is why isn't there a womens MLB. I am assuming that M is for Major and not Minor. The simple reason is that even if your teams are better than mens amateur teams, they are nowhere near the level of mens MLB. That alone makes it a hard sell.

    I know baseball and softball are different, but I've been to major division ASA national womens softball tournaments. Other than spouses and kids, the paying attendance is less than 10. How would you propose to draw crowds for a womens MLB?
    The current women's players and teams that are the cream of the crop can't be compared to the men's teams and players that are the cream of the crop, because women's baseball does NOT have the SAME opportunities and levels YET as men do. We do NOT have umpteen girls' youth leagues, we do NOT have girls' high school baseball, we do NOT have women's collegiate baseball, we do NOT have women's minor or Major League baseball, we have NEVER had women's Olympic baseball, and the USA Baseball-sanctioned women's national team just came about in 2004, so the level of development for even the women's national team is NOT even close to being the same as it is for males. Female amateur players who are the best at this point play FAR LESS games a season than do many guys who play in city leagues and local league like the MSBL and others. So get off your high horse and stop making excuses to discredit women. Like I said, on average, the women's teams play far less games a season than do many/most men's amateur leagues, so therefore, at this point, comparing the best female players to amateur men's players is more than FAIR.

    Furthermore, many guys who play amateur baseball have had high school, collegiate, minor league, AND MLB experience. No woman in this day who's playing baseball has had minor league or MLB experience. There are just a handful of women who've had collegiate baseball experience, even though the numbers are slowly growing as a few people out there are open-minded enough to give women who are capable of playing at that level the chance to do so, and umpteen girls across the country are playing high school baseball. The opportunities that women have had to this point compared to men are a far cry from the opportunities that men have had.

    Remember, at this point, women's baseball is still at the amateur level... with a lack of the opportunities and experience men have had since the beginning of organized baseball. You are talking like women's baseball has the exact opportunities that men have... which is so wrong.

    Many of the women who play today are some of the best female players right now, but not all who play are the cream of the crop... yet, they are talented, solid baseball players. We don't have nearly the infrastructure that men have, so of course there is going to be more of a gap between the typical male amateur player compared to the MLB player than that of the best female players compared to the average female player.

    Until women have the same opportunities, the gap between the best female players and the average play isn't going to be as big the gap between the best male players and the average male amateur player (notice, I said "average male player", separating the best male players... meaning the pro players... from the average player who has never had a chance of being a pro player... women can only dream of being a pro baseball at this point, until things change).

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotAboutEgo View Post
    The current women's players and teams that are the cream of the crop can't be compared to the men's teams and players that are the cream of the crop, because women's baseball does NOT have the SAME opportunities and levels YET as men do.
    If what you say here is true, and I believe it is, how could what you said earlier be true, specifically: "Many of the women's teams I've played against and have seen play could beat many men's amateur teams hands down, because they are better players and have better fundamentals and mechanics."


    So get off your high horse and stop making excuses to discredit women.
    Womens baseball, for the reasons you cited, is not on par with mens baseball. It's not even on par with Single A baseball. If any women are talented enough to play pro baseball, I'm behind them all the way. But they are a long ways from having a womens MLB. No high horse about it. Simple facts.

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