Ken Burns' Baseball

[bryanac625]

In reading some of these posts in the thread, I guess the first question is, why do some of you keep watching Ken Burns' programs if they annoy you? Someone even suggested you should watch his stuff with your "KBG" (Ken Burns glasses on. There are plenty of documentary programs on the history of baseball. Forget about Ken Burns and move on!

Would the game have been better without Cobb? I don't know. Unfortunately, he was a racist, violent, metally disturbed person. That behavior is never acceptable or justifiable at any time or place in history. I understand that the great majority of white Americans of Ty Cobb's time were racist, but that doesn't mean that they therefore engaged in the rampant anger and violence Cobb displayed to African-Americans. Of course, the game and the country would have been a racist and violent (lynchings) place without him, but as a leading figure in baseball, he certainly had influence and persuasion towards others (fast-forward to Charles Barkley's "I am not a role model"). And someone said Ty Cobb had black friends. This is misleading. The black men Cobb considered "friends" were people with menial jobs or child-like, simpleton Stepin Fetchits like the Tigers batboy, Lil' Rastus. These were men who offered no threat to Cobb's whiteness or his manhood. By the way, I wonder if any of his black "friends" knew that Cobb was very likely a member of the Ku Klux Klan?

I don't think Ken Burns is filled with white guilt. Nor do I think dignifying the story of African-American history has to come on the back of denigrating white history. But unfortunately, our country's past is rampant with racial injustice. As some so often put it, "That's just the way people thought back then."

One of my university profs once told me that "history is not there to make people happy." Once again, he's very right...

[OleMissCub]

Of course, the game and the country would have been a racist and violent (lynchings) place without him, but as a leading figure in baseball, he certainly had influence and persuasion towards others (fast-forward to Charles Barkley's "I am not a role model").

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. You contradicted yourself when you admitted that his racial views were nothing out of the ordinary for the time, but then said that his racial views had influence. Who was he influencing? You think some kid in Arkansas would hear that Cobb beat up a groundskeeper and then do the same?

I don't think he had any influence beyond the baseball diamond. He was never an admired person in his time....he was respected though.

Would the game have been better without Cobb? I don't know.

You don't know? Why on earth would it have been better off without him? In the grand scheme of things, Cobb's racial malevolence and madness had no negative impact on the game itself. On the contrary, he used his status to fight owners and battle for player's rights, etc.

[Urbanshocker13]

Saying baseball would have been better without Cobb is a totally stupid and ridulous statement. He has over and over again been ranked as one of the best players who have ever played the game (uselly at least top 3 or 4). There have been plenty of other villians in baseball who where worst and more of a negitive effect on the game then Cobb. It's been a while since I have seen the early innings of Baseball so I don't remember how Cap Anson is dipicted in it, but he had far more effect on the game in a negitive way than Cobb did. Cobb was a very complex person and I think it would have been more interesting to get into his complex character than just paint him as the biggest villian in baseball.

I do like Baseball and Burns' other docs, I think artistically, aesthetically and theatrically they are done very well. I don't like the cherry pick history or some of the misleading statements but they look good and are entertaining to watch. In his doc Jazz it's hard not to have race as an issue considering the subject matter, baseball as it is very important dosen't have to be a main part of the doc.

[Pere]

In reading some of these posts in the thread, I guess the first question is, why do some of you keep watching Ken Burns' programs if they annoy you? Someone even suggested you should watch his stuff with your "KBG" (Ken Burns glasses on. There are plenty of documentary programs on the history of baseball. Forget about Ken Burns and move on!

I own a copy of Baseball on DVD, as I do copies of several other baseball programs. I'd be interested in hearing what you and everyone else think is worth collecting that is not as well-known. Since I noticed the mention of the Okrent comment, I have actually gone back and watched most of three discs... looking for that line, but also enjoying yet another visit with the film.

I agree with the gist of the recent comments about Ken Burns' sometimes single-mindedness. I did notice, anew, the general treatment of Cobb that others here have mentioned. It's not that the depiction of Cobb is false, exactly, just unsubtle and very incomplete. As I suggested before, these are failings that occur time and again through the film, with respect to many different subjects.

So why do I keep it around, with these problems? Why do I still like it so much, as indeed I do? Because it is in a class by itself. Nobody else has even attempted a documentary on this scale, and more importantly, the good parts are good. While I don't agree with all the interviewees, there are many segments that are insightful, or lyrical, or moving.

Overall, it is a great work. That does not mean that it should be exempted from criticism.

The Civil War series, on the other hand, now that I really have problems with. But that is a topic for another forum, I suppose.

Would the game have been better without Cobb? I don't know. Unfortunately, he was a racist, violent, metally disturbed person....

I think you're starting in a different place than a lot of the folks here. What does all that have to do with his place in the game?

To me, the idea that the game could have been improved by the subtraction of Ty Cobb is as self-evidently absurd as the idea that it could have been improved by the subtraction of Christy Mathewson or Babe Ruth.

One of my university profs once told me that "history is not there to make people happy." Once again, he's very right...

True enough, but I didn't notice anyone arguing for the "happy" version of the story.

[bryanac625]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. You contradicted yourself when you admitted that his racial views were nothing out of the ordinary for the time, but then said that his racial views had influence. Who was he influencing? You think some kid in Arkansas would hear that Cobb beat up a groundskeeper and then do the same?

I don't think he had any influence beyond the baseball diamond. He was never an admired person in his time....he was respected though.

No, I don't believe I contradicted myself. What I said specifically was "I understand that the great majority of white Americans of Ty Cobb's time were racist, but that doesn't mean that they therefore engaged in the rampant anger and violence Cobb displayed to African-Americans. Of course, the game and the country would have been a racist and violent (lynchings) place without him, but as a leading figure in baseball, he certainly had influence and persuasion towards others."

What this means is that most white Americans of Cobb's day did not disagree with racial prejudice as it existed. As a result, he could publicly utter racial slurs and attack blacks and still keep his job. To be fair, he was fined for attacking a cripple (no hands after an accident) in the stands after the man called Cobb a "half-n----r." And I recall seeing a newspaper cartoon where he suffered some consequence for an attack on blacks. But I don't believe it cost him much at the time. Again, most people did not disagree with him (as Burns said in his documentary, being called a "half-n----r" was too great an insult for a white man.)

You don't know? Why on earth would it have been better off without him? In the grand scheme of things, Cobb's racial malevolence and madness had no negative impact on the game itself. On the contrary, he used his status to fight owners and battle for player's rights, etc.

I said I don't know, which means I have no opinion. (But by the way, Nolan Ryan once said, in the wake of the 1994 players strike, "there's" never been a player this game can't do without.")

That's great if Cobb fought for player's rights, but it loses its impression on me when I think about the fact that Cobb was someone who went out of his way to attack players on the field and fought to keep black people as second-class citizens in every aspect of society. I think he was also a wife-beater. Loser clubs like the St. Louis Browns and Washington Senators could have benefited from black talent. Connie Mack and John McGraw tried to sneak in black players unsuccessfully.

I still say that Cobb was a visible figure with influence in a world that clearly approved of legal discrimination towards African-Americans. By being openly hostile towards people, he could influence others to do the same. I see him as the type of person who would have led the mob to lynch a black man. Maybe some in the crowd could not bring themselves to perform the actual lynching, and I don't know of any evidence where he did such a thing, but if it ever came out, I wouldn't be surprised.

For me, it takes a microscope to look at the virtue of Ty Cobb. I would prefer to spend my time focusing on, for example, Jackie Robinson- he was excellent on the field (6x MLB All-Star (1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954; 1947 NL Rookie of the Year; 1949 NL MVP) and was someone who stood up for players' rights (he testified on behalf of Curt Flood's Supreme Court fight for free agency and also mentored other black players when they came to the league.) Martin Luther King said he made his job in the battle for civil rights easier. I'm not saying you have to admire Jackie; you can admire whomever you want. But he is overwhelmingly a hero to me.

I am not someone who has a problem with any ethnic group of people, but I can't appreciate Ty Cobb. As Dan Okrent said, he was an embarrassment to baseball in spite of his records.

[OleMissCub]

You obviously don't know anything in detail about Cobb's life.

Did you know that he tried to sneak a black player into the majors? What about the scholarships he created which helped mostly black students....or the hospital he built in a primarily black area.

[OleMissCub]

For me, it takes a microscope to look at the virtue of Ty Cobb. I would prefer to spend my time focusing on, for example, Jackie Robinson- he was excellent on the field (6x MLB All-Star (1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954; 1947 NL Rookie of the Year; 1949 NL MVP) and was someone who stood up for players' rights (he testified on behalf of Curt Flood's Supreme Court fight for free agency and also mentored other black players when they came to the league.) Martin Luther King said he made his job in the battle for civil rights easier. I'm not saying you have to admire Jackie; you can admire whomever you want. But he is overwhelmingly a hero to me.

You aren't Ken Burns are you?


Oh, and Jackie Robinson was an excellent player and an all-star?? I never knew.

[bryanac625]

You obviously don't know anything in detail about Cobb's life.

Did you know that he tried to sneak a black player into the majors? What about the scholarships he created which helped mostly black students....or the hospital he built in a primarily black area.

I'd love to see authentic documentation on this. Otherwise, I just don't believe it. Sorry.

You aren't Ken Burns are you?

I'll take that as a great compliment- thanks!

Oh, and Jackie Robinson was an excellent player and an all-star?? I never knew.

His HOF Plaque is proof enough for me.



Besides that, excellent play is more than just great hitting and good fielding. It's also respecting the game and being someone with integrity. Ken Burns pointed this out in episode 1: People say Cobb's demons made him a better player, but the fact that Robinson controlled his temper made him a better man. As well as winning rookie of the year for 1947, he also received awards off the field like a chest of silver and (I think) a new car; in 2003, he received the Congressional Gold Medal; and of course, his #42 was retired by every team. His former teammate Don Newcombe has petitioned for him to be awarded a national holiday and there is no question he deserves it. Sorry... I just can't say these things about Ty Cobb. If anything, I feel sorry for the man.

[OleMissCub]

Oh, and Jackie Robinson was an excellent player and an all-star?? I never knew.

His HOF Plaque is proof enough for me.

Do you absolutely not understand sarcasm????

[Bill Burgess]

For me, it takes a microscope to look at the virtue of Ty Cobb.

I am not someone who has a problem with any ethnic group of people, but I can't appreciate Ty Cobb. As Dan Okrent said, he was an embarrassment to baseball in spite of his records.

Good afternoon, brother bryan. Glad to meet you. I've read your comments about the very controversial Mr. Cobb with interest. I can not blame you for feeling the way you do. You are expressing what a lot of others feel too. Mr. Cobb has received a terrible press, and a lot of what he did was terrible. I understand that. I do not flinch from the uglier parts of his persona/actions. He earned much of his criticism.

In case you don't know who I am, I am a Cobb researcher, historian, advocate. I do not deny I admire him, and even love the man. In case you find that mystifying, please allow me to clarify why I say what I say.

I have posted many of the controversies of his career. The negatives of his life are what they are, but the good he did gets almost no attention.

1. He enlisted in WWI, when he had a deferment, as a house-hold head. He believed he would be gone for a long time, and considered himself to be ending his baseball career.

2. He fought hard to get the old players a baseball pension, in the 50's, and the baseball authorities left the early stars out of the pension play completely. He and Taylor Spink, Sporting News boss wrote hundreds of letters, made hundreds of phone calls, and it all fell on deaf ears.

4. He campaigned for Heilmann/Crawford for the Hall of Fame.

5. He was notoriously cheap, and yet, he mailed out dozens of checks every month to broke old players, and after they passed away, he continued to mail the checks to their widows.

6. In the 20's, he often visited the games of the Detroit Stars, a Negro League team, and often sat in their dugouts, talking baseball with them. This is a matter of record, and spoken about in articles by their players. He tried to get several players jobs in the US Negro Leagues for Cuban black players.

It is not generally well-known, but he was raised by a black Mammy, played with black kids as a child, and both his family and he always employed blacks in his home as service persons.

He visited the Hall of Fame around 7 times for their induction ceremonies, to help promote the Hall. Most inductees never visit after their own inductions.

But just in case my points are being dismissed, I will provide some other documentation.

Here are some of my posted Fever articles on my Ty Cobb Thread.

1. Did Ty Cobb Once Kill a Man?

2. How Racist Was Ty?

4. Did Ty Cobb's Team Mates Hate Him?

5. The Koozma Tarasoff Story: Ty Cobb's Good Side

6. Old post I made long ago in Ty's defense.

Most persuasive is the rebuttal at the end of How Racist was Ty? by Wesley Fricks. I consider Wesley the most knowledgeable person I know concerning Ty Cobb.

Both he, I and other Ty researchers like Richard Bak and Mark Okkoen have been trying to do the hard research and re-educate the masses with respect to Mr. Cobb's true record as a human person.

It's easy to demonize someone. It is hard to present a balanced presentation. I am taking this time here with you, Bryan, because I haven't done this for a while, and I think you speak for many.

So, I hope you read Wesley's well-documented rebuttal to my piece.

Society has a flexible bar with respect to racism. What was once tolerated in America, is not any longer. Nor should it have been then. And we still have a very long way to go. I despise Cobb's racism, and hold it in contempt. But I also know that he wasn't a racist through and through. He was capable of countless acts of kindness towards black people, and did countless acts for them. His bat-boy his entire career was a black man named Mickey Rivers, who revered him.

When you wrote that you could imagine him leading a lynch mob to murder an innocent man, I cringed. I could see him leading a small group to save that black man. Ty has been my primary research subject since 1961, when I read his autobiography, as a 10 year old kid. I have received emails from Ty's grand-children, thanking me for taking the time to try to present a balanced presentation of him in modern times.

I too hate his evil, but why demonize a man who did so much to try to make up for his early evil, and changed so much? Condemn his evil yes, but also give credit when/if it was hard-earned. In 1952, when many teams still refused to hire blacks, he came out hard for opening the doors, with an open heart. I wrote up the details in my "How Racist Was Ty?"

I've done my best. I hope it helps. Thanks for listening, my brother.

[steve rogers]

Mr Burgess, that's about as good a post on this subject as anyone could write. I also printed out your essay's on Cobb and put them with my books by and about him. I've always been interested in finding out more on Cobb. Reading the short bit Bill James wrote about him in his new Historical Abstract really made me revaluate the way he's portrayed. I also greatly enjoyed Tom Stanton's new book Ty and the Babe, I think it really helped to show a more well rounded picture of who he really was. Thanks so much for the additional insight.

I've only been coming to this site for a couple weeks and if that's the kind of stuff I'll be reading on here I'll be coming back for a long time. Excellent stuff.

Scott

[Bill Burgess]

Mr Burgess, that's about as good a post on this subject as anyone could write. I also printed out your essay's on Cobb and put them with my books by and about him. I've always been interested in finding out more on Cobb. Reading the short bit Bill James wrote about him in his new Historical Abstract really made me revaluate the way he's portrayed. I also greatly enjoyed Tom Stanton's new book Ty and the Babe, I think it really helped to show a more well rounded picture of who he really was. Thanks so much for the additional insight.

I've only been coming to this site for a couple weeks and if that's the kind of stuff I'll be reading on here I'll be coming back for a long time. Excellent stuff.

Scott

Thanks, Scott. Real research is the hardest thing in the world, and also the most rewarding. If the early sports writers had been more into background research instead of perpetuating popular stereo-types, we'd be a lot further along in knowing these interesting people, instead of having to dig the real historical people out of the mountain of hype.

Bill

[bigtime39]

Our acts towards individuals are often better than our opinions of the groups they are a part of.

Many ballplayers of Cobb's era were working-class men from rough and tumble lives. Are they really to be condemned for holding--to a greater or lesser extent--the views and prejudices of their time and class?

It's called evolution for a reason.

[bigtime39]

The Civil War series, on the other hand, now that I really have problems with. But that is a topic for another forum, I suppose.

If you don't think the Mods would mind, I'd love to hear your critique of the Civil War.
If you don't think they'd allow it, please PM it to me.
Thanks.

[bigtime39]

My lazy white trash ancestors wound up serving in the Confederate army because they couldn't afford to hire substitutes. (I do appear to hail from a long line of ne'er do wells).
In the Ken Burns - Al Sharpton worldview, there's almost about no difference between them and the most brutal, hardened Totenkopf guard at Auschwitz.
Funny, that.

[OleMissCub]

My lazy white trash ancestors wound up serving in the Confederate army because they couldn't afford to hire substitutes. (I do appear to hail from a long line of ne'er do wells).
In the Ken Burns - Al Sharpton worldview, there's almost about no difference between them and the most brutal, hardened Totenkopf guard at Auschwitz.
Funny, that.

If they couldn't afford to hire substitutes, then they likely weren't "lazy" (having slaves = having money). 97%+ of white southerners at the time of the war didn't own slaves. They worked their butts off in the field trying to provide for their families. I don't know why you would insult your ancestors like that just because they served in the Confederate Army. That's just wrong.

[Urbanshocker13]

I have idea now hear me out, we all seem to have a problem with one thing or another with Ken Burns Baseballs if we like the Doc or not. How about this we at Baseball Fever make our own Documentary about the history of baseball! We have more than enough baseball historians, would be historians, experts, would be experts, Fanatics and obsessive baseball nut jobs! I know there are other designers on here who have to have more video experience then me ( Idid do that Kens Burns tradmark pan a photo thing for a project once, and that was in flash) We could probally make a better one then he did! We can make from the old "one Cat" and "Town Ball" days all the way to the steroid era that we live in today. At least one of us has to have a cool voice to be the Narrator! Tell me what you think. It would probally end up in a giant fight, but might be fun until then!

[OleMissCub]

I have idea now hear me out, we all seem to have a problem with one thing or another with Ken Burns Baseballs if we like the Doc or not. How about this we at Baseball Fever make our own Documentary about the history of baseball! We have more than enough baseball historians, would be historians, experts, would be experts, Fanatics and obsessive baseball nut jobs! I know there are other designers on here who have to have more video experience then me ( Idid do that Kens Burns tradmark pan a photo thing for a project once, and that was in flash) We could probally make a better one then he did! We can make from the old "one Cat" and "Town Ball" days all the way to the steroid era that we live in today. At least one of us has to have a cool voice to be the Narrator! Tell me what you think. It would probally end up in a giant fight, but might be fun until then!

Wouldn't work unless we had a lot of money to license footage that is owned by MLB. I live in fear every second that my beloved videos that I've made are going to get yanked down off YouTube by the fascist scum at MLB....they've already tore down my Bob Gibson one, which I think was my best.

[Stray Cat]

A documentary is defined as an investigative report. Ken Burns is one of the best of this era. You may not like what he reports or how he arranges it but you have to admit he does a good job. His Lewis and Clark DVD has wonderful scenery and music. American history has a lot of interesting people.

[bigtime39]

If they couldn't afford to hire substitutes, then they likely weren't "lazy" (having slaves = having money). 97%+ of white southerners at the time of the war didn't own slaves. They worked their butts off in the field trying to provide for their families. I don't know why you would insult your ancestors like that just because they served in the Confederate Army. That's just wrong.

I wasn't insulting their service...just their path to that service. If they'd had the cash, they'd have sat the thing out.
Also, the main point was that in many people's eyes, there's no difference between a diffident Confederate draftee and a committed SS man.

[OleMissCub]

I wasn't insulting their service...just their path to that service. If they'd had the cash, they'd have sat the thing out.
Also, the main point was that in many people's eyes, there's no difference between a diffident Confederate draftee and a committed SS man.

But why'd you call them lazy? I assume you said that because you think they were slave owners or something. Which, as I said, is something that is unlikely given that they weren't able to buy a substitute. One male slave cost the equivalent of $25,000 in today's money. I'd think that any slave owners back then could afford to spend $300 to hire a substitute.

[Rome Colonel]

I've also been thinking about the main guests he had on the documentary. They're all Northeast liberals like him (with the exception of George Will): George "do you have any Grey Poupon" Plimpton, Daniel Okrent, Stephen Jay Gould, Doris Kearns Goodwin.

And let's not forget Mario Cuomo.

Burns only made one short film (by his standards) in the years between "The Civil War" (1990) and "Baseball" (1994). I suspect most of the interviews for the latter were conducted years earlier, probably as far back as 1990-91 when Cuomo was still a likely presidential candidate. When I watched the film I kept wondering if Burns had been hoping Cuomo would win the 1992 election, since having a president as one of his interview subjects would have given the film a special cachet.

I knew Cuomo had played a year in Class D and so I could accept his inclusion far better than any of those listed above, but I gave up on "Baseball" when Burns showed Cuomo's wedding pictures. OK, it was just one, but that was one too many.

[bigtime39]

But why'd you call them lazy? I assume you said that because you think they were slave owners or something. Which, as I said, is something that is unlikely given that they weren't able to buy a substitute. One male slave cost the equivalent of $25,000 in today's money. I'd think that any slave owners back then could afford to spend $300 to hire a substitute.

Because there's a lazy streak in my family, and it goes back a ways...

[Pere]

I've also been thinking about the main guests he had on the documentary. They're all Northeast liberals like him (with the exception of George Will): George "do you have any Grey Poupon" Plimpton, Daniel Okrent, Stephen Jay Gould, Doris Kearns Goodwin.

I knew Cuomo had played a year in Class D and so I could accept his inclusion far better than any of those listed above...

I liked Cuomo's bits. Honestly, I liked a lot of the segments from these people. I don't necessarily have to agree with somebody's politics, or anything they say in other contexts, to appreciate what they have to say about baseball.

I don't recall if Doris Kearns Goodwin said much in the film that was meaningful for me, but she was inspired by the experience to go on and write a Brooklyn Dodgers fan memoir, Wait Till Next Year--a story of a girl, her father, and baseball--which turned out to be instrumental in hooking one of my own daughters on the game. For a while, she would attend games with me and talk about how the players might compare to Duke Snider and Don Newcombe. This from a ten-year-old! (She was a precocious reader.) She probably raised some eyebrows in the stands at the ballpark in New Britain, where we were seeing games in those days.

Goodwin, of course, later wrote a book about the Lincoln administration, which I haven't read, but it is my understanding that it conforms to the prevailing false-mythic view of Lincoln and the North also exemplified by Ken Burns' Civil War.

The only comments in the film I didn't really like were the ones that perpetuated what I see as misunderstandings of the game itself, like the ninety-foot-basepaths-are-perfect conceit.

Maybe I was annoyed by the multiple comments (Billy Crystal, Gould, and Mantle) describing the 1960 Yankees defeat by Maz and the Pirates as a painful tragedy and injustice. I never liked the supposition in some circles that the '60 Yanks were the better team, because they piled up runs in three games while losing four. Besides that, it's just a little offensive to portray the Yankees of that era, and their fans, as having any right to feel sorry for themselves. They went to the Series fifteen times in eighteen seasons, won it all ten times, and they're crying about a loss?

I'd love to hear your critique of the Civil War.

I've decided I agree with the stance of this forum against content which is too far off-topic (not substantially related to baseball), so I'm only going this far because it relates to some views on Burns' perspective in Baseball, and to my own points here about still being able to enjoy baseball material despite disagreements in other spheres. Therefore I hope nobody will have a problem with me briefly responding to bigtime39 here, and I also hope that this thread will not be diverted into a substantially non-baseball argument.

Ken Burns' understanding of the "Civil War" is summed up for me by a statement he made when he was asked once about the fact that his film (despite the presence of Shelby Foote) does not really portray the Southern perspective. He said--this is perhaps a slight paraphrase, but not much--"The North were the good guys and the South were the bad guys, and the good guys won."

It really ought to go without saying that a view of history which is reducible to "good guys" and "bad guys," and the presumption that the good guys must be the winners, or perhaps that the winners must be the good guys, is a view which may have some standing in the traditions of entertainment film-making, or propaganda, but should not be considered scholarship. (This is not strictly a matter of historical scholarship, either; many of the same issues remain relevant today.)

Some elements of this kind of thinking appear in Baseball as well.

Although I have provided links here to some articles, this should not be construed to mean that I necessarily agree with everything these sites may contain, no more than watching George Will or Mario Cuomo talk about baseball means I agree with them about other matters. This is all the space here I'm going to give the matter; please PM for any further discussion that is not about baseball.

[THE OX]

As has been mentioned several times during the course of this thread, I was put off a bit by Burns' insistence that African-American players were the best. This same canard also flawed his history of Jazz, IMO.

Have there been some GREAT African-American baseball players and musicians? Hell, yes!

Do all the Caucasian ballplayers and musicians pale (hoo boy, there's an unintentional bad pun!) by comparison, as Burns seems to indicate? Horse manure!

This white Eastern Liberal guilt that was mentioned agrees with my estimation of Burns' POV.