Gene Tenace and Pete Rose: Defense

[AstrosFan]

This is for people who saw these two players. I remember flipping through the Win Shares book in the defense section. Pete Rose is rated as an outstanding corner outfielder; his Defensive Win Shares per 1000 innings are about the same level as Roberto Clemente. Gene Tenace is rated as an average defensive catcher, but a brilliant defensive first baseman, on par with the best of the glove men at first. I don't mean to suggest Rose was as good defensively as Clemente, but did either of these players strike you as outstanding defensively at those positions?

[brett]

This is for people who saw these two players. I remember flipping through the Win Shares book in the defense section. Pete Rose is rated as an outstanding corner outfielder; his Defensive Win Shares per 1000 innings are about the same level as Roberto Clemente. Gene Tenace is rated as an average defensive catcher, but a brilliant defensive first baseman, on par with the best of the glove men at first. I don't mean to suggest Rose was as good defensively as Clemente, but did either of these players strike you as outstanding defensively at those positions?

1) Isn't part of it due to the fact that Clemente does not come out as an absolute top tier corner outfielder in many systems?

2) Considering that Rose played second and third (and lead the league in fielding percentage at both positions, as well as right, left and first base each in different season) he should have been an excellent corner outfielder. Second basemen typically transition well to left field, and third basemen to right. He had a wide set of skills. My question is, would he have been a better player had he been a little above average fielding second baseman or third baseman, versus a very good corner outfielder.

3) Tenace rating at first base has to be a problem with the system. Baseball prospectus has him as a below average first baseman (-19 RAA in only a little over 600 games) and an above average catcher (-20 RAA).

[AstrosFan]

Clemente does not show up as being at the level of say, Al Kaline, but he still shows as being quite excellent for a corner OF.

Why are you so sure that the flaw with Tenace is in Win Shares and not Baseball Prospectus's metrics?

[brett]

Clemente does not show up as being at the level of say, Al Kaline, but he still shows as being quite excellent for a corner OF.

Why are you so sure that the flaw with Tenace is in Win Shares and not Baseball Prospectus's metrics?

I am not. I don't trust baseball prospectus defensive values either, BUT Tenace had fewer plays per 9 innings than an average first baseman. Some of that was due to ballpark.

I suspect that maybe the ballpark factors and pitching staff factor into his high ranking (so it might be legitimate).

[AstrosFan]

Disregarding the metrics, did you see enough of either player to get a good read on them?

[brett]

Disregarding the metrics, did you see enough of either player to get a good read on them?

No. I only remember watching Tenace with the Pirates.

I don't remember watching many of Pete Rose's games. The '80 world series would really be it.

[leecemark]

--Rose worked hard on his defense, but he had only average speed and an average arm. He was not a special defender, at least not by my observation. Solid, but not outstanding, wherever you stuck him (except for 3B where he caught what he got his glove on, but had no range to speak of.
--I don't remember any thing special about Tenace as a firstbaseman either. Honestly I can't even picture him there, although I must have seen him play the spot a fair number of times. As a catcher he was not a highly regarded defender. The A's prefered catcher was whoever else they had besides Tenace. The Padres ended up using him as much at 1B as C even though they had invested alot of money in the idea he would be the answer for them behind the plate.

[JRB]

This is for people who saw these two players. I remember flipping through the Win Shares book in the defense section. Pete Rose is rated as an outstanding corner outfielder; his Defensive Win Shares per 1000 innings are about the same level as Roberto Clemente. Gene Tenace is rated as an average defensive catcher, but a brilliant defensive first baseman, on par with the best of the glove men at first. I don't mean to suggest Rose was as good defensively as Clemente, but did either of these players strike you as outstanding defensively at those positions?

Tenance only had two seasons where he played in over 100 games at first (134 and 106), so I wonder if this provides an adequate enough sampling to draw any conclusions about his fielding ability at that position by just looking at stats. .

Rose was an all out hustler, and through sheer determination and force of will, he made himself a good defender at whatever position he was assigned. I don't think he came close to having the skill of a Clemente in right field. Clemente had a cannon for an arm. Perhaps, Clemente's one flaw was having too much confidence in his throwing ability, which would cause him to attempt to try and throw out runners he had little chance of throwing out, which sometimes results in overthows/errors.

c JRB