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Thread: Schuerholz Out!

  1. #1

    Schuerholz Out!

    John Kincade reports that the Braves GM will step down from his position effective today

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegame4219 View Post
    John Kincade reports that the Braves GM will step down from his position effective today
    Already broke the news. ;P and it's spelled "Schuerholz". :P

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    what the heck?! why is he leaving? with bobby still around another year. man, i hope we still get out much needed acquisitions.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip&smoltz95 View Post
    what the heck?! why is he leaving? with bobby still around another year. man, i hope we still get out much needed acquisitions.....
    I think he's moving to team president. I don't know if this means that he'll keep the GM spot or not, but if he isn't, Frank Wren isn't exactly a dummy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip&smoltz95 View Post
    what the heck?! why is he leaving? with bobby still around another year. man, i hope we still get out much needed acquisitions.....
    Don't worry he is still with the Braves just in a larger capacity. Wren will be the GM but John will be his boss still, so don't think that Wren is going to completely screw up this team.

    I am actually more surprised because of Terry McGuirk. If I remember correctly Liberty Media had to pass getting rid of McGuirk by the Selig's office and the Selig has to approve of the new Team President. (Of course John passes that test) I am wondering what happened to Terry maybe he has health problems or just wants to retire. Well whatever it is I wish Terry the best.
    Extend Prado!!!

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    is there a detailed article on this yet? i know it just happened. i am just curious. like you guys.

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    EDIT: Looks like John is staying after all. I guess he's just done as the GM. He's not leaving the Braves.
    Last edited by Knick9; 10-11-2007 at 10:43 AM.

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    That's what I said.

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    what exactly is the difference between GM and pres.? as far as trade negotations and such go.

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    This story seemed to turn into a non-story rather quickly. All it seems to be is everyone is moving up a position. (including McGuirk)
    Extend Prado!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PureBaseballFan View Post
    This story seemed to turn into a non-story rather quickly. All it seems to be is everyone is moving up a position. (including McGuirk)
    But now, as evidenced by what's going on at Braves Journal, some are discussing the merits of the Mike Gonzalez-Adam LaRoche trade now that Schuerholz isn't GM anymore. There's a real big stink about that. I'm sure they're here too, but the line of thinking goes:

    We needed LaRoche more than we needed Gonzalez because we had Soriano and LaRoche's replacement would be Scott Thorman, who was not ready. If the Braves had kept LaRoche, the Teixeira trade would have never been made and the organization wouldn't be in such a pitiful state right now.

    That's the way the logic goes.
    Last edited by SamtheBravesFan; 10-11-2007 at 02:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
    But now, as evidenced by what's going on at Braves Journal, some are discussing the merits of the Mike Gonzalez-Adam LaRoche trade now that Schuerholz isn't GM anymore. There's a real big stink about that. I'm sure they're here too, but the line of thinking goes:

    We needed LaRoche more than we needed Gonzalez because we had Soriano and LaRoche's replacement would be Scott Thorman, who was not ready. If the Braves had kept LaRoche, the Teixeira trade would have never been made and the organization wouldn't be in such a pitiful state right now.

    That's the way the logic goes.
    I can't agree with that logic for a few key reasons.

    1. The Braves needed a good lefty out of the bullpen and Gonzalez more then meets that requirement. The best lefty going into the season for the Braves bullpen was McBride who had shown he could be good but he walked far to many people to be consistently good.

    2. Soriano was no sure thing. He was coming off of a head injury that was pretty bad for baseball. I don't think anybody could have predicted how good he was in the first half as there were concerns of if he could be gunshy.

    3. Other then Soriano none of the people in it could be called dominant or even good. This was the opening day bullpen for 2007.

    Mike Gonzalez
    Rafeal Soriano
    Macay McBride
    Chad Paronto
    Oscar Villarreal
    Bob Wickman
    Tyler Yates

    Other then Soriano and Gonzalez not one of the others could be called good or great. Now if Mike wasn't there the likely person to replace him would have been my favorite bullpen arm Moylan but as much I love Moylan I would have never predicted the kinds of numbers he put up.

    4. You could argue the Braves were trading from one of their stronger positions. Many believed that Thorman would put up some average numbers for a rookie and that was all the Braves needed considering they were counting on Andruw to continue his big hitting ways, Chipper to be healthy, McCann would put up numbers similar to 2006, and Frenchy developing more as a hitter. Thorman's failures were magnified more by the lows of other players. If Thorman failed then they had Salty who played first in high school and they could have seen him as an option if Thorman failed. Kala Kaaihue in 2006 was showing in the minors that he could crush HRs and that in perhaps a two or three he could be ready for the majors.

    5. Salty was likely to be traded anyway. If it wasn't for Tex he likely would have been traded for Arroyo, Garland, Vazquez, or any other pitcher that was on the market. We needed pitching and the Braves were willing to trade Salty and Harrison for that pitcher but when they couldn't get it they got the next biggest need a Power hitting 1B. People seem to forget that Tex was not the first choice for the Braves as they were looking for pitching in early June and didn't enter the Tex talk until about 1 week before the trade deadline.

    6. The guys the Braves traded were at positions of decent depth. Elvis Andrus was struggling offensively and Diory Hernandez emerged as a good prospect at both 2B and SS, that combined with fact Yunel came to the majors and did a very good job showed the Braves had more then one option for the future of SS. Matt Harrison was a good prospect but Jo-Jo clearly overtook him as the Braves top pitching prospect and the good showing early in the season of Thomas Hanson, Francisley Bueno, Dan Smith, Cole Rohrbough, Jamie Richmond, Jose Ortegano, Jeffrey Locke, and Steve Evarts showing they were average to great prospects made Harrision more expendable. (the main thing about those guys is they are in the lower levels except for Smith and Bueno) Neftali Feliz might be ready for the majors in 3 to 4 years but until he develops more pitches he won't move up in the minors a whole lot, his potential upside is good but you will likely have to wait a while for him to be ready. Beau Jones, he was the PTBNL, has good talent but still needs to develop his control of pitching and will take a couple of years before he is fully ready.

    The way I see it is Salty was gone no matter if we traded for Gonzalez or not. Andrus maybe not but Harrison was also likely gone because of the desperate need for pitching. To be honest I think the only thing that would have changed if the Braves didn't trade for Gonzalez is instead of Tex the Braves would likely have had Garland, Vazquez, Arroyo, or somewhere instead.
    Extend Prado!!!

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    I guess I'll have to stick to this bubble of thought then. Apparently, a young, cheap, not-yet arb-eligible slugging first baseman is much more valuable than an iffy-health, 70 inning reliever. I must be crazy thinking otherwise.

    I'm not being sarcastic, but that's where all that argument starts from.

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    The AP Article:

    Longtime assistant Wren replaces Schuerholz as Braves' GM

    ATLANTA -- John Schuerholz stepped aside Thursday after 17 years as general manager of the Atlanta Braves with only one regret.

    Despite an unprecedented 14 straight division titles, the Braves won just one World Series.

    With a few more rings, he figured, this would have been the perfect farewell.

    "What else is there?" said Schuerholz, who will become team president and turn over the GM duties to his right-hand man, Frank Wren. "It would have been, unequivocally, the complete validation of the grand nature of this franchise. Nobody could have said anything about the Atlanta Braves and ended the sentence with the word 'but.'"

    Otherwise, Schuerholz has no complaints with his career, one that could land him a spot in Cooperstown someday.

    He turned 67 last week and was admittedly worn down by the grind of more than a quarter-century as a general manager. Before coming to Atlanta, he spent nine years in the same post with the Kansas City Royals, winning another World Series title in 1985.

    But he will forever be remembered for his impact on the Braves, a perennial last-place team when he took over in 1991. That very first year, Atlanta won the NL West and went all the way to the World Series. In the years that followed, the division titles kept coming with numbing regularity, until the streak finally ended with a third-place finish in 2005. (Morons.)

    "Obviously, John has done an unbelievable job with the organization," outfielder Jeff Francoeur said. "He definitely deserves to retire and enjoy what he's accomplished. It's sad, because we didn't want to see him go."

    Actually, he's not going anywhere. Schuerholz signed a four-year contract and remains second in command to chairman Terry McGuirk but will step away from day-to-day personnel decisions, such as trades, free-agent signings and other roster moves.

    "I'll miss that," Schuerholz said during a news conference at Turner Field.

    Wren, a former GM with the Baltimore Orioles, spent the past eight years working for Schuerholz and hoping to replace him eventually.

    "Our styles are different," said Wren, who also got a four-year deal. "But our philosophies are very, very similar."

    Wren only got word Tuesday that Schuerholz was looking to move upstairs, even though the idea was first proposed by McGuirk six months ago. Schuerholz broke the news to his successor over iced tea after they watched a developmental league game in central Florida.

    "I really had no inkling this was coming," Wren said.

    Schuerholz, who's always been notoriously tightlipped about personnel moves and the inner workings of the organization, grinned and pumped his fist when Wren described his reaction.

    "I can keep a secret," said Schuerholz, baseball's longest-serving GM with one team.

    The 49-year-old Wren turned down an offer to become Pittsburgh's general manager a few years ago and didn't pursue a couple similar opportunities. Now, he's got the job he really wanted.

    "We're going to keep doing things the way we've been doing them," Wren said. "The Braves way. It's been working pretty well."

    While Schuerholz is willing to provide advice in player matters, calling himself a "mentor" and a "sounding board," he'll mainly be involved in the business side of the franchise. He made it clear that he won't be looking over Wren's shoulder.

    "I let people establish themselves, do their jobs and support them," Schuerholz said.

    Atlanta's only World Series title came 12 years ago, a six-game victory over the Cleveland Indians that gave the city its first, and still only, major sports championship.

    Four other times during the streak, the Braves lost in the World Series. They were also the losing team in four NL Championship Series and were eliminated four more times in the division series.

    After the team's ownership passed from Ted Turner to Time Warner, the Braves began to cut payroll though they remain one of the highest-spending teams in baseball. McGuirk said the move had nothing to do with another ownership change from Time Warner to Liberty Media.

    This season, the Braves missed the playoffs for the second year in a row with another third-place finish in the NL East. (Now they get it right. Doofuses.)

    Still, the postseason failures and recent slide do little to diminish Schuerholz's reputation for assembling talented teams year after year, with manager Bobby Cox running things in the dugout throughout the remarkable run.

    The 66-year-old Cox has a year left on his contract and hasn't made any decision about whether he'll return beyond 2008. But the change in GMs shouldn't have an impact.

    "I think everything's great," Cox said when reached on his cell phone. "Frank is extremely capable and a huge part of what we've done through the years already. The good thing is both of them are still here. It's business as usual."

    Schuerholz came to the Braves from Kansas City in 1991, taking over a last-place team that had plenty of potential: Pitchers John Smoltz, Tom Glavine and Steve Avery were just starting their careers.

    The new GM filled out the roster with established veterans such as Terry Pendleton and Sid Bream, a combination that took Atlanta from worst to first in the NL West and all the way to a 1-0, 10-inning loss to Minnesota in Game 7 of the World Series.

    Even though Smoltz is the only player who's been with the Braves throughout the Schuerholz era, the general manager kept a steady flow of talent moving through Atlanta.

    Greg Maddux and Andres Galarraga were signed as free agents. Fred McGriff and Gary Sheffield came to the team through trades. Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, Brian McCann and Francoeur worked their way up through the farm system.

    Schuerholz left his job as a junior high school teacher to begin his front-office career with the Orioles in 1966. He moved to Kansas City two years later with the expansion Royals, eventually working his way up to general manager in 1981, at the age of 41.

    During his nine years as GM, the Royals won two division titles and the '85 Series with a seven-game victory over the St. Louis Cardinals.

    "John Schuerholz is an unbelievable judge of talent," Chipper Jones once said. "It almost seems like he has a crystal ball."

    Nice article except for the stupid mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
    I guess I'll have to stick to this bubble of thought then. Apparently, a young, cheap, not-yet arb-eligible slugging first baseman is much more valuable than an iffy-health, 70 inning reliever. I must be crazy thinking otherwise.

    I'm not being sarcastic, but that's where all that argument starts from.
    Though LaRoche finished strong he didn't start well. In fact Thorman outplayed LaRoche in the first month. I liked LaRoche and think he will be a good player but we did need another good bullpen arm and was fine with the move even now. Also like I said before Thorman's failure was magnified by the failue of Andruw, McCann's injury that hurt his numbers, and of course Chipper missing games.
    Extend Prado!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
    But now, as evidenced by what's going on at Braves Journal, some are discussing the merits of the Mike Gonzalez-Adam LaRoche trade now that Schuerholz isn't GM anymore. There's a real big stink about that. I'm sure they're here too, but the line of thinking goes:

    We needed LaRoche more than we needed Gonzalez because we had Soriano and LaRoche's replacement would be Scott Thorman, who was not ready. If the Braves had kept LaRoche, the Teixeira trade would have never been made and the organization wouldn't be in such a pitiful state right now.

    That's the way the logic goes.
    That doesn't make much sense, because the team is in the same state we were with Laroche in 2006.

    Quote Originally Posted by PureBaseballFan View Post
    I can't agree with that logic for a few key reasons.

    1. The Braves needed a good lefty out of the bullpen and Gonzalez more then meets that requirement. The best lefty going into the season for the Braves bullpen was McBride who had shown he could be good but he walked far to many people to be consistently good.

    2. Soriano was no sure thing. He was coming off of a head injury that was pretty bad for baseball. I don't think anybody could have predicted how good he was in the first half as there were concerns of if he could be gunshy.

    3. Other then Soriano none of the people in it could be called dominant or even good. This was the opening day bullpen for 2007.

    Mike Gonzalez
    Rafeal Soriano
    Macay McBride
    Chad Paronto
    Oscar Villarreal
    Bob Wickman
    Tyler Yates

    Other then Soriano and Gonzalez not one of the others could be called good or great. Now if Mike wasn't there the likely person to replace him would have been my favorite bullpen arm Moylan but as much I love Moylan I would have never predicted the kinds of numbers he put up.

    4. You could argue the Braves were trading from one of their stronger positions. Many believed that Thorman would put up some average numbers for a rookie and that was all the Braves needed considering they were counting on Andruw to continue his big hitting ways, Chipper to be healthy, McCann would put up numbers similar to 2006, and Frenchy developing more as a hitter. Thorman's failures were magnified more by the lows of other players. If Thorman failed then they had Salty who played first in high school and they could have seen him as an option if Thorman failed. Kala Kaaihue in 2006 was showing in the minors that he could crush HRs and that in perhaps a two or three he could be ready for the majors.

    5. Salty was likely to be traded anyway. If it wasn't for Tex he likely would have been traded for Arroyo, Garland, Vazquez, or any other pitcher that was on the market. We needed pitching and the Braves were willing to trade Salty and Harrison for that pitcher but when they couldn't get it they got the next biggest need a Power hitting 1B. People seem to forget that Tex was not the first choice for the Braves as they were looking for pitching in early June and didn't enter the Tex talk until about 1 week before the trade deadline.

    6. The guys the Braves traded were at positions of decent depth. Elvis Andrus was struggling offensively and Diory Hernandez emerged as a good prospect at both 2B and SS, that combined with fact Yunel came to the majors and did a very good job showed the Braves had more then one option for the future of SS. Matt Harrison was a good prospect but Jo-Jo clearly overtook him as the Braves top pitching prospect and the good showing early in the season of Thomas Hanson, Francisley Bueno, Dan Smith, Cole Rohrbough, Jamie Richmond, Jose Ortegano, Jeffrey Locke, and Steve Evarts showing they were average to great prospects made Harrision more expendable. (the main thing about those guys is they are in the lower levels except for Smith and Bueno) Neftali Feliz might be ready for the majors in 3 to 4 years but until he develops more pitches he won't move up in the minors a whole lot, his potential upside is good but you will likely have to wait a while for him to be ready. Beau Jones, he was the PTBNL, has good talent but still needs to develop his control of pitching and will take a couple of years before he is fully ready.

    The way I see it is Salty was gone no matter if we traded for Gonzalez or not. Andrus maybe not but Harrison was also likely gone because of the desperate need for pitching. To be honest I think the only thing that would have changed if the Braves didn't trade for Gonzalez is instead of Tex the Braves would likely have had Garland, Vazquez, Arroyo, or somewhere instead.
    I don't agree with the logic either. Mike Gonzalez was a solid pickup. It's much harder to acquire a reliable relief pitcher, than acquring a top of the line power hitter. I haven't really questioned many of Schuerholz's moves, but I hope Frank Wren will take more risks than Schuerholz. JS has been conservative in the past few years, this year is the first instance in quite some time that he made a lot of moves at the trade deadline.
    2nd member of the Peter Moylan Fan Club

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    At the time of trade, I was worried that Laroche would be a tough loss. Now, I'm very satisfied with the deal because we also got Lillibridge in the deal. Once, Gonzalez comes back healthy, maybe we can have a great bullpen.
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    I think the interesting thing to look at is will Frank Wren be able to have some different negotiation tactics. I am wondering if the policy of not giving no-trade clauses will change.
    Extend Prado!!!

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    so did anyone actually leave the organization?

    did mcguirk get promoted too?

    mcguirk is the team chairman
    JS is the team president
    and wren is the GM

    right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip&smoltz95 View Post
    so did anyone actually leave the organization?

    did mcguirk get promoted too?

    mcguirk is the team chairman
    JS is the team president
    and wren is the GM

    right?
    Yeah, I think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip&smoltz95 View Post
    so did anyone actually leave the organization?

    did mcguirk get promoted too?

    mcguirk is the team chairman
    JS is the team president
    and wren is the GM

    right?
    McGuirk is now the CEO of the Atlanta Braves and basically the face of ownership for Liberty Media.
    Extend Prado!!!

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    They really should say things got shaken up in ATL or everyone got promoted instead of JS stepping down. People get the completely wrong idea. Better choice of title basically.
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