Duke Snider

[brett]

Can someone outline his vote percentage for all the years he failed to make it, and list who was voted in during those years.

[dgarza]

Main ballots

1970 - 17.0% - Lou Boudreau
1971 - 24.7% - --------------
1972 - 21.2% - Sandy Koufax, Yogi Berra, Early Wynn
1973 - 26.6% - Warren Spahn
1974 - 30.4% - Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford
1975 - 35.6% - Ralph Kiner
1976 - 41.0% - Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon
1977 - 55.4% - Ernie Banks
1978 - 67.0% - Eddie Mathews
1979 - 71.3% - Willie Mays
1980 - 86.5% - Al Kaline, Duke Snider

One guess is that writers were waiting for Mantle and Mays to get in before Snider, but I don't know. Starting of at 17% is mighty low for a player with over 400 HRs in the early 70s.

[dgarza]

How long it can take players to make the HOF is surprising.
When I was creating the above list, I noticed that Yogi Berra did not make it in on his 1st year. In fact, Johnny Bench is the only 1st ballot HOF catcher.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Duke Snider really isn't an exact contemporary of Mays and Mantle. They did all play together in NY from 1951-57, and at least one of them were in every WS during that time, but Snider was born in 1926 and retired in 1965.

The other reason Snider did not go in first is that he wasn't as good as the other two. Snider's triple crown stats were: .295 BA, 405 HRs, and 1,333 RBI. He had 2,116 hits in his career, a rather low number for a guy who's immortalized in song with Mays and Mantle ("Willie, Mickey, and the Duke"). He never won an MVP award, although he was 2nd to Campanella in 1955, and was named the Major League Player of the Year that year as well. (The voting for MVP was extremely close; Campy won by only 5 votes.) For all his fame, Snider never hit a HOF "milestone"; he never really came close. He has very high peak value, but Snider stopped being a full-time player the day the Dodgers left Brooklyn for LA; he was just another player after 1958.

There is a comparision between Snider and Dale Murphy that begs discussion. Was Snider THAT much better than Murphy? Murphy has stats that are, superficially, less impressive, but the two players are quite similar. Each came up at age 22 and each had their last good season at age 32. Murphy played in a slightly less favorable era for offense, and he was a two-time MVP. I wonder what people would say to the question: If Snider, why not Murphy?

[dgarza]

Duke Snider really isn't an exact contemporary of Mays and Mantle. They did all play together in NY from 1951-57,

They played together for 7 years? Well that fits the definition of being contemporaries. They all spent most of the 50s being 20-somethings. They all first started battling it out for MVP awards during the same years. That's pretty damn close.

[willshad]

Duke Snider really isn't an exact contemporary of Mays and Mantle. They did all play together in NY from 1951-57, and at least one of them were in every WS during that time, but Snider was born in 1926 and retired in 1965.

The other reason Snider did not go in first is that he wasn't as good as the other two. Snider's triple crown stats were: .295 BA, 405 HRs, and 1,333 RBI. He had 2,116 hits in his career, a rather low number for a guy who's immortalized in song with Mays and Mantle ("Willie, Mickey, and the Duke"). He never won an MVP award, although he was 2nd to Campanella in 1955, and was named the Major League Player of the Year that year as well. (The voting for MVP was extremely close; Campy won by only 5 votes.) For all his fame, Snider never hit a HOF "milestone"; he never really came close. He has very high peak value, but Snider stopped being a full-time player the day the Dodgers left Brooklyn for LA; he was just another player after 1958.

There is a comparision between Snider and Dale Murphy that begs discussion. Was Snider THAT much better than Murphy? Murphy has stats that are, superficially, less impressive, but the two players are quite similar. Each came up at age 22 and each had their last good season at age 32. Murphy played in a slightly less favorable era for offense, and he was a two-time MVP. I wonder what people would say to the question: If Snider, why not Murphy?

well Snider was clearly better than Murphy, but not a WHOLE lot. The difference is enough so that one is barely above the hall of fame line and the other barely below it. A few things bring Murphy down. 1) He had a bunch of VERY low batting average years (and just bad years overall) that brought down his lifetime average and other rate stats to where his lifetime average is only .265. Not many hall of famers have that low of an average, except if they are elite sluggers (Jackson, Schmidt, Killerbrew).2 ) His peak wasnt good as Sniders'. Snider had over 170 OPS+ 2 times, another year at 166 and another at 155. Murphy's highest was 157. Snider was also helped by having 40 homers 5 years in a row. I know it really shouldnt matter much if you have 40 homers 5 years in a row, or have 36,37,38, and 36...but somehow it makes it look all the more impressive when youcan get to great round numbers year after year. Murphy does have 2 MVPS and a bunch of gold gloves to even it out a bit...but not enough to make up for his batting average.

[dgarza]

I see Snider as being clearly better than Murphy. Not all that close. Snider had a noticabley better peak and never really had an off year (although some were not quite so full), while Murphy had a few off years and had a peak more similar to Andre Dawson (if he'd have stayed in CF).

No matter how much better I think Snider is, there is no reason why Murphy should be doing so poorly in the voting.

[digglahhh]

BTW, Snider couldn't hit lefties for anything!

He was often the only RH batter in his line-up, and as such the opposing teams avoided throwing lefties at the Dodgers if they could. Snider also was given time off against lefties frequently (not unique to Duke obviously).

Somebody with the data accessible can post the numbers. Put Snider was terrible, and his career splits are egregiously lopsided. He struggled mightily against lefties, but faced them so tremendously infrequently it didn't hurt his overall numbers much.

I'm not arguing against Snider's merits, it's just an interesting tidbit.

[willshad]

BTW, Snider couldn't hit lefties for anything!

He was often the only RH batter in his line-up, and as such the opposing teams avoided throwing lefties at the Dodgers if they could. Snider also was given time off against lefties frequently (not unique to Duke obviously).

Somebody with the data accessible can post the numbers. Put Snider was terrible, and his career splits are egregiously lopsided. He struggled mightily against lefties, but faced them so tremendously infrequently it didn't hurt his overall numbers much.

I'm not arguing against Snider's merits, it's just an interesting tidbit.

Ive also heard Ted Wiliams couldnt hit lefties much..can anyone confirm this?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Retrosheet shows a decent platoon differential for Williams, but only shows his last (4) seasons.

I'm sure that Williams hit over .300 with power lifetime against lefties.

Snider had a big platoon drag in his later years as well, but that, too, may have been a function of age as well.

[brett]

Ive also heard Ted Wiliams couldnt hit lefties much..can anyone confirm this?

At least from '57 on, he did not hit lefties well (.251/.390/.387).

In '57 he hit .410 versus righties and .319 versus lefties. I would have figured that he would avoid games by lefty starters, but it looks like teams brought in lefties just to face him because the red sox, as a team only faced lefties in about 18% of their plate appearances, but Williams in 23%.

I remember from other threads that Williams actually hit lefties suprisingly well earlier in his career, like .328/.650

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have come around to where I believe Snider was significantly better than Murphy. A .709 OWP for Snider vs. a .630 for Murphy is a huge differential.

I believe that if Snider had kept his BA over .300, he would have gone in on the 1st or 2nd ballot. Snider's first year of eligbility, 1970, was a year where folks were pretty jacked up over a .300 lifetime BA.

[leagueleader]

They played together for 7 years? Well that fits the definition of being contemporaries. They all spent most of the 50s being 20-somethings. They all first started battling it out for MVP awards during the same years. That's pretty damn close.

Correct, I remember the song about Willie, Mickie & the Duke. I was a Yankee fan as a kid & even though the Yanks always beat the Dodgers in the Series Snider always was the big slugger the Yanks didn't have. Even in 55 when Mantle started hitting them bigtime Snider still had the edge the next year i was elated when Mantle got 52. I think for 5 years straight Snider hit 40 or more.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Correct, I remember the song about Willie, Mickie & the Duke. I was a Yankee fan as a kid & even though the Yanks always beat the Dodgers in the Series Snider always was the big slugger the Yanks didn't have. Even in 55 when Mantle started hitting them bigtime Snider still had the edge the next year i was elated when Mantle got 52. I think for 5 years straight Snider hit 40 or more.

The song about "Willie, Mickey, and the Duke" put Snider in a group he really didn't belong in. He was a HOFer and at many times in MLB history, he'd be considered the best CF in the game, but he was never the best player in baseball (as Mays and Mantle were at various times) and did not have a claim to being the greatest player of all time (as could possibly be said for Mays) or the highest peak of all time (which could possibly be said for Mantle).

[leagueleader]

The song about "Willie, Mickey, and the Duke" put Snider in a group he really didn't belong in. He was a HOFer and at many times in MLB history, he'd be considered the best CF in the game, but he was never the best player in baseball (as Mays and Mantle were at various times) and did not have a claim to being the greatest player of all time (as could possibly be said for Mays) or the highest peak of all time (which could possibly be said for Mantle).

Up until 1955 it was Mantle who did not belong & to me that was upsetting in converstions with my Dodger fan friends.

[bluesky5]

Edmonds, Murphy and Snider seem like similar players off the top of my head. Maybe it is because they are all decent sized white CF's.