WD, when Mankin describes the torque effect, he talks about the pushing and pulling of the hands on the handle in OPPOSITE directions.
How is this possible at launch initiation? Do your hands pull in opposite directions at the start of the swing while both hands are at/behind the rear shoulder?
I challenge you to pick up a bat, load your hands, and begin the swing by PULLING BACK WITH THE BOTTOM HAND ON THE HANDLE FROM GO..........
This is Mankins explaination of torque..........
ALL of his demonstrations also show the torque effect happening as a result of CHP and after the lead hand has begun turning the corner to COMPLETE the circular path.
How does this square with the picture? It doesn't.............
It has nothing what-so-ever to do with "what I want to see". It has everything to do with WHEN handle torque (if any) takes place.
I have alway been an advocate of "late torque" for exactly the reasons above. I cannot apply handle torque by "pulling the bottom hand against the top" at initiation. It doesn't make any sense at all to me in terms of the entire sequence.....
I my opinion, Mankin is NOT CONSISTANT in his writings regarding "early handle torque"..........
And has NEVER explained the sequence that supports early torque....Only LATE torque........
Push pull... guess what... Thats what the 02 giants did... push pull... according to baker... even though physics don't explain this, he said its correct. Also, he said he learned this from hank.
Well... lets start naming people who push pull... ie handle torque... ie people who go against your above post:
That just proves this to be correct. There is push pull in the high level swing! Dusty says that the swing is push pull... Lets now get the roster of hitters from 02... and all in the baker era... also, all of baker's teamates with aaron. I'll get more on it later...
OK Conner, I'll give you a chance here. Here is the same clip you posted only from the front, and numbered by frame.
I would like you to point out EXACTLY which frame the hands begin "pulling/pushing in opposite direction on the handle".
I want to be VERY CLEAR about the question I want you to answer.
At what point (begining in what frame) is "THE BOTTOM HAND PULLING BACKWARDS WHILE THE TOP HAND IS PUSHING FORWARD" PER JACK MANKINS DESCRIPTION OF HANDLE TORQUE:
When he starts his swing...
I don't know mankin's stuff... I was arguing push pull...
Last edited by BoardMember; 03-07-2008 at 10:19 PM.
Go To Jack's Site.
Post Your Question.
He Will Answer.
Someone else already asked him to describe the "early sequence". I'm already waiting for the answer..........
I'll let you know what I think when I see it............
Although I think I already know what's happening early in the swing that people are "mis-labeling" as handle torque........
another thing you could do would be just go back and read Mankin's posts from the beginning.
I do that every year or so and always learn a lot.
The early phase is prelaunch torque which means torquing the handle before the shoulders turn primarily by forearm action and without unhinging the bottom wrist and with a grip that prevents "bind".
Good stuff. Most of the answers you need.
Most of the answers for poor ol JJA, too.
a few early batspeed posts:
Bat speed is the product of a series of accelerating arcs. The lower body accelerates the hips, torso and shoulders in an arc around a stationary axis. The rotation of the body accelerates the hands (as a unit) into their arc. And, the push-pull action of the hands adds to acceleration the final arc. --- The final arc is the bat-head rotating around a point between the two hands.
NOTE: The muscles of the arms are not involved in accelerating the hands. They are used to accelerate the final arc.
The lowering of the back arm is quite different with rotational mechanics as compared to extension mechanics. With extension of the hands, the bat head sort of slides down the line up with the hands (knob at the ball) and develops very little angular displacement as the arm lowers to horizontal. --- With rotational mechanics, the initiation with torque generates considerable angular displacement while the forearm is still vertical (and lowering). This necessitates the wrist being able to rotate in the plane of the swing.
Hold the forearm vertical and rotate the wrist. Note the plane of that rotation. Now slowly lower the arm while rotating the wrist. --- The lowering of the arm must be in time with the position of the bat (or plane of the swing) if a serious wrist bind is to be avoided with rotational mechanics. --- But this not as much a problem as it sounds. With proper initiation this timing will happen automatically as long as we allow rotation instead of extension to accelerate the hand-path.
I do not agree with you regarding the lead arm being bent and extending at contact. At least for the better hitters.
I would like to explain my problem with the fence drill and other “knob at the ball” mechanics and maybe you can show me the light. --- The hands will move forward about 24 inches to contact. Why will bat speed be enhanced if we thrust the bat lengthwise (knob first) 18 inches or so before we apply forces to cause angular acceleration? What is the benefit of waiting till the last 4 or 5 inches of hand-path to develop bat speed? --- Please help.
A straighter hand-path generates less angular displacement of the bat. Therefor, with a bent lead elbow [bending the elbow on approach to contact as way of clearing fence in fence drill] the hands must be extended further before the bat head comes through. --- With an angular hand-path, the hands travel about 20 to 22 inches to contact. They are extended 24 to 26 inches to contact with a straighter path.
Hi Jack, In reply to your question, and it is a great one, first of all I think we all agree that bat speed is a result of many factors. I agree the bat will move roughly about 24 inches to contact, but I believe that you had better be generating this speed through the entire swing. Hitting through the ball during the process of extension [BACK arm] is the last 4 or 5 inches I think you made reference to, speed to the ball had better already have started coming out of the trigger and from the kinetic chain ground up--dog
If I might interject here, Dawg, I think this is exactly Jack's point -- you must apply force constantly.
If hand torque alone is responsbile for angular displacement, which Jack's research seems to bear out, and if we agree that applying force over time will result in more bat speed than trying to apply force suddenly, late in the swing, then a circular path in which torque is applied with both hands would produce optimum angular displacement. But if you use a straight, linear hand path, you're pulling along the bat's centerline, and the bat won't rotate around the hands.
The only question I've had of Jack regarding this point is whether "angular displacement" and "batspeed" can be used interchangably (which IMO he sometimes seems to suggest). If not, I think that also opens the door to contribution by a "tripping effect" of the hands and even a degree of linear extension late in the swing, which seems to be what Adair describes when he says the "hands move out of their arc-like path." But again, I would be arguing for synergy of several forces, not against the existence (or even the importance) of torque.
If I understand him correctly, Jack's concern about the fence drill is a valid one -- the hitter might be left with the notion angular displacement must be initiated late and "cheat" to avoid hitting the wall by pulling the bat in a straight line. Instead, they should be letting the rear arm ride tight and the lead arm should be draped across the chest as the shoulders help pull around. To me, the difference between the two is the difference between a consciously wristy swing and a swing that takes adavantage of summation of forces and truly achieves the circular hand path.
Or at least I think that's what Jack's saying.
Bob, your hands should only move forward about 24 inches before the bat head comes through. Don’t give up those inches easily. Make that bat head accelerate for every one of them. --- You have probably been taught to have quick hands while keeping the bat head back (knob to the ball). I would suggest you turn that completely around. --- Keep your hands back and develop a quick bat head. Throw the bat head not the hands. --- Let your body’s rotation accelerate the hands.
"One of the defining differences between great hitters and all the rest is the degree the muscles of the arms are involved in generating bat speed. Lesser hitters tend to use the arms to muscle the bat around while the better hitter uses the arms more as a leakage[linkage] from the rotating shoulders to their hands. --- I have often stated that a “key” to becoming a great hitter is - Do not use the muscles of the arms to accelerate the hands. The arms should stay back and more relaxed and allow the rotation of the body to accelerate the hand-path.
"The muscles of the lead arm also play a limited role in developing bottom-hand-torque. The pull of the bottom hand is derived almost totally from the rotation of the lead shoulder. The lead arm stays fairly straight and serves more as a leakage[linkage]. The only time the muscles of the arm would be more involved is when the batter is jammed. This requires the lead elbow to bend and pull the hands into a tighter path.
"The top arm does get more involved when the batter applies top-hand-torque as the swing is initiated. Pulling the top hand back toward the catcher is almost entirely an arm-generated movement. But, I would stress the point that it is more of a timing and finesse mechanic rather than a movement requiring great strength."
You should like Jack because he is a shoulder "rotation" guy.
He doesn't buy into the shoulder tilt/lead arm jut action.
Maybe some day.
Tom look, I've read it completely. From start to finish. Mankin can't demonstrate "early torque" because it doesn't exist, early in the swing.
I've been telling you that for 2 years now, but you've never bothered to ask what the physics behind the sequence are, because you already know everything.
There is force applied to the handle early, but is isn't torque. If you want the answer, just ask........
Mike is on to it, he just isn't sure what it is. That's way he says "MAYBE HANDLE TORQUE ISN'T THE PROPER TERM OR DESCRIPTION".
The swing is a sequence of 2 actions overlapping to provide maximum acceleration based on the positions of the actions in the sequence.....
JJA knows what it is, but he's probably doesn't think of it in mechanical terms.......
It is the reason you have no REAL answer for "lag during shoulder turn".
It is the reason why there is no logical handle torque early in the swing when opposing forces on the handle DON'T MAKE LOGICAL SENSE.....
Last edited by BoardMember; 03-08-2008 at 08:22 AM.
So BM, in prelaunch torque, how does the bat turn before the shoulders "turn" ?
Not only does this happen in the mlb pattern, but the shoulders also tilt as does the spine (adjusting spine angle) before the shoulders connect to hitch a ride on the torso that turns around the spine.
Late "plane match" adjustment is made by controlling the adjustment of spine angle and the angle of attachment of the lead arm to the torso (weathervane) controlled by the upper end of the action, not "bend at waist"
Name the frame that the shoulders aren't doing anything at all (be it your tilt or my turn), and the bat starts turning by itself?
REMINDER: Choose a frame that doesn't include any movement of the back shoulder that will affect the bat..........
I'm off to a golf tourney. I look forward to seeing your magic frame when I return.........
BM, I love these type of posts.
The bottom hand pulling back, or "snapback", while the top hand throws past the bottom hand, is something that Chris Yeager made me aware of several months ago.
I'd say this is occuring beginning around frame #10.
I consider this to be very important action, and is something Chris Yeager stresses.
BM ... excellent video support. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to supply supporting information.
I still think this hand action is relatively simplistic. To me the bottom-hand is first to flatten to the plane of the pitch. The top hand is next to flatten to the plane of the pitch. The flattening of the top hand to the plane of the pitch is when the barrel blur takes place ... notice the rear elbow slotting during this action. This "torque" that Rich speaks of is not "torque" and in my opinion is simply a result of the top hand quickly flattening to the plane of the pitch immediately after the bottom hand flattens to the plane of the pitch.
This action is exactly what Chris Yeager is attempting to emphasize with his "split grip" drills. You want to feel each hand working independently - top hand throwing the barrel and the bottom hand being passed up or snapping back as the top hand throws past the bottom hand.
Here is what Mankin has to say on this topic.
To explain the mechanics of how the large muscles are involved in this transfer, I am going to describe the swing mechanics of a Ken Griffey Jr., or hitters of his caliber, just prior to making contact. --- The large muscles in his legs and back have rotated his hips and shoulders to a point where the belly button and chest are now facing the pitcher. His lead shoulder is now starting to rotate back in the direction of the catcher. This means that the lead arm, and thus the bottom hand, are now being pulling back toward the catcher as the bat approaches contact. --- At the same time the rear shoulder (and top hand) are rotating around toward the pitcher.
The hands get flat in the swing.
Solely by rotation------------------No again.
I will step out and say without a doubt that “hand torque” is not contributing 50% of the speed in the swing.
I will say however, that the early positioning (reactively) of the hands (flat) does allow for max swing speed.
I see a twisting of the top hand, I believe it to be a response to launch.
(Ex: watch how bottom hand knuckles move toward the sky, and the top hand knuckles move under---
at launch and continue to move during the swing-- on video)
(all the following is negated if the body is not rotating to continue the advancement of the bat)
Hang with me,
I believe the top hand twist to be a response to launch forces,
(the forces being, rear “elbow” action + torso rotational forces.)
I also think that the forces put on the hands (wrists)-- at launch---are what is responsible for the “SET” of the wrists to where the hands are now working in concert.
The look I see is, the top hand wrist gives or bends back
(achieving a full wrist cock / set) at the same time, and in response, the bottom hand wrist “bows”. This is evident in video.
This positioning of the hands, Imo, (following shortly behind the hips rotation), insures they are in a position to work in concert AND are “behind” (not left behind ) the body. (Connection)
That position / sequence gives,
More speed, quickness, barrel accuracy--- resulting in power, than the typical “arms swing” we are so familiar with.
Here is the way I think of it,
(specifically the area between the barrel and the hands---the shaft)
is routed in a path that I see as;
around the head,
around the rear shoulder, and
around to the hitting zone.
This puts the shaft of the bat inside that of the pitch path,,,placing the barrel’s sweet spot, consistently (ideally) into the back of the ball.
Adjustment of arms, based on pitch, becomes a natural response to this fundamental path.
The path of the barrel IF straight back to the catcher as a true “pulling with the hands in opposite directions” is not what I see / feel.
That is a form of casting.
Enter here: “The argument for lateral shoulder tilt.”
Bm says that the shoulders are always rotating, I can buy that.
The angle they initially rotate is tilted (front shoulder begins to rise and back shoulder drops)..but not really
The correct description is that they are tilt-turning.
They are uncoiling from a solid loaded position.
And on video the shoulders move a few frames before the lead shoulder starts moving away from the plate.
But why this “tilted” look?
Due to the initial posture and load.
This action is revealed in the hitter’s ability to keep the shoulder “in there.”
YET THE SHOULDERS ARE STILL MOVING.
Many hitters get the shoulders AROUND, pull off, spin, due, IMO to a poor loading pattern
The initial upward rotation of the shoulders, is indeed rotation of the shoulders.
I believe the look of tilt is married to the load / coil that keeps the shoulder “in” rather than moving around too quickly. (Enter scap action)
Of course if you read Ray Porco’s post a while back the description of true shoulder rotation doesn’t occur, at least in the way that most of us refer to “shoulder rotation.”
Bonds is a great example of this action.
Hands on bat, take your lead elbow and move it toward your rear knee. (Just a cue)
Resist slightly the hips movement.
What takes place? (If you don’t counter-rotate)
Functionally, this puts you into a very powerful position.
The rear scap loads the front pulls away from the spine.
The front shoulder moves in, rear one raises. You are peering over the seam on your shirt,,,(cue again)
This is almost undetectable in many ML hitters because of the subtlety / smoothness.
If the hands alone are in charge at launch,
this, to me, would sacrifice, significantly the ability to “stabilize” the barrel.
The assist of the rear elbow /ARM UNDER THE SHAFT needs to be considered here.
With the hands alone the barrel will “flop” (fall) and the barrel’s accuracy is lost.
The whole back arm’s positioning is contributing to the flattening of the hands and greatly assists with stabilizing the barrel,
while the body is rotating, uncoiling.
The rear elbow’s “path” is a contributor to flattening of the hands and is detrimental if done early and totally independent of barrel movement.
I believe that the best bet for the accomplishment of the articulation of the wrists, the shoulders movement, and the body’s rotation (to be reactive / quick) is to train the hitter to have the body in a relatively tension free environment prior to launch.
If a hitter, in their set up is “too tight” / (pre-tensed up) the tendency is for the tension to release at launch.
Just the opposite, IMO, of what should be occurring.
On the other hand if the set is more relaxed prior to swing launch—
We have Quickness.
This quickness can be thought of as enhanced from the set up, IMO, because the entire body can work better--- in the proper sequence---and quicker---if in a more “tension free environment.”
This has proved to be beneficial for us.
That said, I believe there are forces placed on the hands, giving the feeling that the hands are more active than reality, not that it matters much, but I believe a lot of the hand’s / wrists actions are reactive to launch forces.
(But due, IMO, to the dense nerve endings in the hands, they feel in control)
A large area of the brain is relegated to the movement and manipulation of the hands so it makes sense that you not only physically feel them, but also, in a way, psychologically.
There's my take on the hands and torque.
BM tell me when this guy's hands start to go in different directions.
And this guy... same question you asked me and tom...
Ignore the throw...