The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 1 – The 1950’s

[Freakshow]

Welcome to the Ultimate Quest for Candidates! This thread will have the sixth poll in this project, choosing the best candidates for the Hall of Fame from the MLB stars of the 1950’s. You will be asked to vote for your top SIX (6) players. The poll will close five weeks after it opens.

I’m asking voters not to peek at the results of the voting until after they’ve cast their ballot. I would hope that voters are capable of independently assessing the candidates without worrying about whom the consensus is favoring.

The threads in this project will always be posted a few days before the poll is added. This is done in order to encourage research and discussion of the candidates. I believe (paraphrasing Socrates) that the unexamined ballot is not worth casting. This also gives you a little time to make the case for a candidate not listed who you think deserves to be on the ballot (although you should sign up as a consultant if you really want to be involved in this aspect of the project).

If someone wants to open a separate thread to focus on one of these candidates, go for it; we already see that a lot on this forum. All of these players are worthy of discussion, because the worst candidates here are on a par with the worst players in the Hall.

I expect that everyone is familiar with Baseball-Reference.com and Baseballprospectus.com. These are essential sites for researching a player’s statistical record. I’ve also inserted links to each player’s bio at the SABR Bioproject or Wikipedia.

We will be judging players by the same criteria that the Hall of Fame uses:

“voting shall be based upon the individual's record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game.”

So everything counts, their lifetime achievements on and off the field, along with their character and other intangibles.

Below are the players we think are the top 22 candidates whose careers centered in the 1950’s. We will need to decide which ones of these to drop for the poll. Basic data are shown for each:

Pos – primary position(s)
BJ – rank at his position in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2002)
Win Shares – shown are career total and best 3 years
WARP3 – from Baseball Prospectus; shown are career total and best 3 years
Other – Alvin Dark and Gil Hodges were both pennant-winning managers. Gilliam, Minoso and Newcombe had careers hindered by their color.

Pos	BJ	 Player	 Name	  Win Shares	  WARP3	            Car WS Adj	Other
3	#43	Joe	Adcock	(245: 26-23-23)	(71.9: 8.1-7.1-7.0)	 +9	
2	#30	Del	Crandall(211: 24-23-21)	(76.6: 8.5-8.4-7.6)	+32	
6	#27	Alvin	Dark	(238: 29-28-24)	(75.8: 9.4-9.2-8.7)	+12	Mgr 12.1 yrs/994 wins
1	---	Murray	Dickson	(239: 20-19-19)	(95.0: 8.6-8.6-8.1)	+35	
7	#43	Del	Ennis	(245: 28-27-27)	(63.3: 8.8-8.0-7.1)	+12	
1	---	Bob	Friend	(214: 21-21-21)	(80.4: 8.5-8.3-7.6)	 +7	
9	#51	Carl	Furillo	(228: 24-24-23)	(72.9: 8.2-8.2-7.4)	+11	
4	#27	Jim	Gilliam	(256: 29-28-26)	(78.3: 9.2-9.1-8.5)	 +9	NeL
7	#49	Sid	Gordon	(234: 31-26-26)	(78.1: 9.1-9.0-8.9)	+35	
3	#30	Gil	Hodges	(276: 31-27-27)	(93.7: 11.4-9.9-9.2)	+13	Mgr 8.7 yrs/660 wins
3	#34	Ted  Kluszewski	(213: 35-26-25)	(61.6: 11.9-7.9-6.7)	+10
9/6	#62	Harvey	Kuenn	(232: 27-26-23)	(57.5: 10.0-7.0-6.1)	 +9						
6	#39	Johnny	Logan	(190: 27-25-25)	(73.8: 11.1-10.3-9.0)	 +9	
4/5	#33	Gil   McDougald	(204: 28-25-25)	(69.4: 10.5-9.1-8.2)	+10	
7	#10	Minnie	Minoso	(296: 34-31-30)	(81.5: 10.1-8.9-8.5)	+13	NeL
1	#46	Don	Newcombe(227: 28-26-23)	(78.7: 10.1-8.6-8.4)	+51	NeL
8/9	#57	Andy	Pafko	(227: 28-24-23)	(74.5: 10.9-9.8-7.1)	 +7
1	#59	Billy	Pierce	(259: 25-24-24)	(93.1: 10.1-9.3-8.3)	+11
5	#14	Al	Rosen	(194: 44-33-30)	(53.6: 12.4-11.9-8.6)	 +9
3	#41	Roy	Sievers	(240: 34-27-23)	(60.1: 8.9-6.5-6.3)	 +9
9/3	#61	Vic	Wertz	(230: 27-25-24)	(66.9: 9.2-8.8-8.2)	+11
5	#24	Eddie	Yost	(280: 28-28-25)	(67.1: 7.8-7.6-7.0)	+13

Some other things to be aware of:
1) Bill James’ rankings emphasize players’ peak years; this results in long steady careers being rated lower than what may seem right.
2) Win shares in seasons before 1961 AL and 1962 NL are increased to adjust them to a 162-game season.
3) You are free to credit players with minor league or foreign league play. I have not systematically attempted this.
4) Can anyone make a good case for another pitcher?

[dgarza]

Might I suggest Harvey Kuenn

[EdTarbusz]

Gilliam, Minoso and Newcombe had careers hindered by their color.

Don Newcombe was 22 when he made his ML debut. I don't think he or Gilliam (24 at ML debut) were hindered very much by their skin color. If anything hindered Gilliam, it was coming up behind Robinson and Cox.

[Erik Bedard]

One slam dunk for me on this ballot, that being Minoso. The other five guys will be decided between Rosen, Pierce, Kluszewski, Adcock, Hodges, Dark, Newcombe, and Gilliam. Of those, Rosen and Pierce are the most likely candidates for my ballot.

[dgarza]

There are some strong candidates listed here. 3 of them make my own personal Hall : Minnie Minoso, Al Rosen, & Billy Pierce.

Hodges, Kluszewski, & Eddie Yost will most likely be the other 3 I vote for.

[Freakshow]

Don Newcombe was 22 when he made his ML debut. I don't think he or Gilliam (24 at ML debut) were hindered very much by their skin color. If anything hindered Gilliam, it was coming up behind Robinson and Cox.

You assume by their ages that they couldn't have been ready to play much earlier. However, looking at their individual circumstances indicates otherwise. Both were dominant in the minors before they debuted in the majors. When they did reach MLB they were immediate stars.

What must be realized is that Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby debuting did not open the floodgates to black players. Some teams did not integrate until the late 50's. Those that did usually had a quota of blacks that would be allowed. Opportunites for black players continued to be limited by some teams even into the 1970's.

So, the major leagues gradually gave black players the same opportunity to play as white players. I think it's reasonable to assume that under a color-blind system, Newcombe and Gilliam and most other blacks in the late 40's-early 50's would have played in the majors earlier than they actually did, that someone else besides the Dodgers/Indians/Giants would have (should have) snapped them up.

[Freakshow]

I'm looking for suggestions for which three players listed above to leave out of the poll.

[Freakshow]

Might I suggest Harvey Kuenn

What's the argument for him? He was a hustling singles/doubles hitter who had, at best, average glove and speed and below average plate discipline.

[EdTarbusz]

You assume by their ages that they couldn't have been ready to play much earlier. However, looking at their individual circumstances indicates otherwise. Both were dominant in the minors before they debuted in the majors. When they did reach MLB they were immediate stars.

What must be realized is that Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby debuting did not open the floodgates to black players. Some teams did not integrate until the late 50's. Those that did usually had a quota of blacks that would be allowed. Opportunites for black players continued to be limited by some teams even into the 1970's.

So, the major leagues gradually gave black players the same opportunity to play as white players. I think it's reasonable to assume that under a color-blind system, Newcombe and Gilliam and most other blacks in the late 40's-early 50's would have played in the majors earlier than they actually did, that someone else besides the Dodgers/Indians/Giants would have (should have) snapped them up.

When I think of 1950s players whose careers were delayrf because of race, I think of players like Elston Howard and Vic Power, not two players who came up through the large Minor League system of an already integrated team.

[Freakshow]

When I think of 1950s players whose careers were delayrf because of race, I think of players like Elston Howard and Vic Power, not two players who came up through the large Minor League system of an already integrated team.

Yes, it's easier to see where a 26-year-old may have been denied the opportunity to play earlier. But Howard and Power weren't as good initially as ROY's Newcombe and Gilliam, so one could argue their debuts at 2-3 years older than Newcombe and Gilliam is understandable.

Again, look at their play in Negro leagues and minor leagues; they were all-stars. With Newcombe debuting at nearly-23 and Gilliam at 24.5, you see most of the white players with similar value at those ages debuting a couple years earlier. It's clear to me they were ready before they got the chance. Unfortunately for them, the talent-laden Dodgers were one of the few teams welcoming black players.

[dgarza]

I'm looking for suggestions for which three players listed above to leave out of the poll.

I'd go with :
Joe Adcock (although I see he does have some support here)
Murray Dickson (1 losing PIT pitcher is enough, leave Bob Friend)
Johnny Logan (too short a career for player whose value leans more on the D side)

[dgarza]

4) Can anyone make a good case for another pitcher?

No one really jumps out, but suggestions :
Allie Reynolds (more 40s?)
Mike Garcia
Lew Burdette
Johnny Antonelli
Ellis Kinder

[Brad Harris]

Hodges
Kluszewski
Minoso
Newcombe
Pierce
Rosen

I'd be really curious to find out what Adcock's lifetime BA/OBP/SLG splits were vs. RH and LH pitchers and whether or not his platooning was a good use of the team's resources or a poor decision by his manager.

[leecemark]

--Minoso is the only guy I'd actually endorse. He's got the best career and 2nd best peak of the bunch in spite of missing some years off the front end due to the color line. Rosen has the best peak, but his career is VERY short. Newcombe you'd have to give alot of war and color line credit to get over the line, but maybe you should. A couple of his teammates are close - Hodges and Gilliam. Pierce is the best available pitcher without all the added stuff for Newcombe. He is underrated, but still probably not quite a Hall of Famer. Eddie Yost looks surprisingly good by Win Shares. Alvin Dark is a candidate if you like him as a manager. That gives me one yes and 8 guys fighting for the 5 other spots.

[Erik Bedard]

I'd be really curious to find out what Adcock's lifetime BA/OBP/SLG splits were vs. RH and LH pitchers and whether or not his platooning was a good use of the team's resources or a poor decision by his manager.

BR has .278/.342/.510 vs. RHP and .268/.340/.473 vs. LHP. However, this cuts off about 800 games of his career, because they occurred prior to Retrosheet's data. Based on this, however, it seems unlikely that platooning him would have been an exceptionally smart strategy.

[Freakshow]

I'd go with :
Joe Adcock (although I see he does have some support here)
Murray Dickson (1 losing PIT pitcher is enough, leave Bob Friend)
Johnny Logan (too short a career for player whose value leans more on the D side)

Thanks, I appreciate this.

Logan, yeah. I only put him on for his WARP3 peak.

Adcock, yeah. A long career, lotta homers, but nothing much stands out.

Dickson, well, it's tough to cut the highest WARP on the ballot. Why should he be booted just because he had the misfortune of playing for sucko teams in Pittsburgh?

Furillo was the last name I added, at special request. Anyone have a case for him? How is he better than Pafko and Wertz?

Another later addition, McDougald, looks a lot like Logan.

[dgarza]

Adcock, yeah. A long career, lotta homers, but nothing much stands out.

I believe Adcock is the only 300+ HR batter to never receive any HOF votes.

[Erik Bedard]

I'd recommend Curt Simmons if you're looking to add another pitcher. War credit for 1951 gives him around 80 WARP3 and about 220 career win shares. Peak is not outstanding, but it's not like he was league average for twenty years. He's about where Newcombe, Dickson, and Friend are.

Oh, and FWIW, I seem to remember reading that Simmons has a better WS/IP mark than Nolan Ryan. Just something to keep in mind, don't know how valid this stat is.

[dgarza]

What's the argument for him? He was a hustling singles/doubles hitter who had, at best, average glove and speed and below average plate discipline.

I'd have a hard time leaving off a 8 season (10 game) All Star who also received a good amount of MVP support.
That places him in Del Crandall/Gil Hodges territory.
I do also look at that sort of thing in making my recommendations.
I know other people look at that as well.
I think he belong in the discussion.

[Freakshow]

I'd have a hard time leaving off a 8 season (10 game) All Star who also received a good amount of MVP support.
That places him in Del Crandall/Gil Hodges territory.
I do also look at that sort of thing in making my recommendations.
I know other people look at that as well.
I think he belong in the discussion.

Good points. Kuenn also had really good support in BBWAA HOF voting, topping out at 39%, IIRC.

[Paul Wendt]

No one really jumps out, but suggestions :
Allie Reynolds (more 40s?)
Mike Garcia
Lew Burdette
Johnny Antonelli
Ellis Kinder

make a good case? not really.
My thought was Allie Reynolds, now it is Reynolds and Kinder.

Burdette garnered support from real voters. So did Johnny Vandermeer and Don Larsen? Burdette is not far from Vandermeer as a candidate. He chalked up bigger career totals but like Vandy he is famous one great's work.

Reynolds and Kinder were much better, I believe. Reynolds is famous and probably has the best chance (a big snowball's chance) with real voters. He was not a race pioneer. Whether there were major obstacles nonetheless, I don't know.

--
Elston Howard --was he in Korea? (as Newcombe but Newcombe was mlb veteran)

--
Whom to cut?
Not Dickson.

Del Crandall and Del Ennis? (and Del Unser in a couple weeks)
Was Crandall any good as a catcher? Lost in Jim Hegan's shadow, perhaps? Pardon my ignorance about the tools of ignorance.

Ennis sixth in Win Shares among the non-HOFers? Wow!
How about Ennis, Furillo, Gordon, Pafko, Wertz
They all trail Ennis in Win Shares so they can't be any good.

Sorry about the long ramble. Let me volunteer to be an advance consultant. Evidently it all happens in the next six weeks which is doable, I believe.

[Paul Wendt]

Good points. Kuenn also had really good support in BBWAA HOF voting, topping out at 39%, IIRC.

I agree with dgarza about Kuenn

[Paul Wendt]

Adcock, Kluszewski, Sievers (1B), and the five LF/RF named just above are out of the picture.

I am inclined toward
pitchers: Dickson, Newcombe, Pierce
non-p: Minoso, Yost

I am "against" Hodges but I concede that is only because so many are effusively for him for real.

Gilliam - tell me the story and I may go there in place of Dickson or Hodges

Crandall - see just above

[Freakshow]

I added Kuenn on the list. He will be in the poll.

That means I have to cut four. I'm leaning towards omitting Logan, Pafko, Furillo and Adcock. McDougald and Wertz are others "on the bubble".

Comments?

[Freakshow]

The poll has been added to this thread. It will be open for five weeks.

Thanks for all the input in deciding the last few ballot spots, especially to dgarza for his thoughts.