View Poll Results: How Do We Rank Sam Crawford?

Voters
23. You may not vote on this poll
  • I rank Sam Crawford a Top 50 Player.

    13 56.52%
  • I rank Sam Crawford a 51-70 Top Player.

    5 21.74%
  • I rank Sam Crawford a 71-100 Top Player.

    5 21.74%
  • I rank Sam Crawford lower than a Top 100 Player.

    0 0%
  • I rank Sam Crawford a Top 10 Right-Fielder.

    12 52.17%
  • I do NOT rank Sam Crawford a Top 10 Right-Fielder.

    2 8.70%
  • I still rank Sam a Top 20 Slugger.

    11 47.83%
  • I do NOT rank Sam a Top 20 Slugger.

    5 21.74%
  • I ran Sam a Top 40 Hitter.

    10 43.48%
  • I do NOT rank Sam a Top 40 Hitter.

    5 21.74%
  • I rank Sam above Reggie Jackson as a Player.

    10 43.48%
  • I rank Sam above Mel Ott as a Player.

    2 8.70%
  • I rank Sam above Paul Waner as a Player.

    12 52.17%
  • I rank Sam above Al Kaline as a Player.

    9 39.13%
  • I rank Sam above Tony Gwynn as a Player.

    8 34.78%
  • I rank Sam above Roberto Clemente as a Player.

    9 39.13%
  • I rank Sam above Harry Heilmann as a Player.

    16 69.57%
  • I rank Sam above Pete Rose as a Player.

    6 26.09%
  • I rank Sam above Ichiro as a Player.

    11 47.83%
  • I rank Sam above Willie Keeler as a Player.

    15 65.22%
  • I rank Sam above Dave Winfield as a Player.

    13 56.52%
  • I rank Sam above Gary Sheffield as a Player.

    11 47.83%
  • I rank Sam above Vladimir Guerrero as a Player.

    12 52.17%
  • I rank Sam above Chuck Klein as a Player.

    16 69.57%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Sam Crawford Thread

  1. #1
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    Mt. View, CA, above San Jose
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    Sam Crawford Thread:

    It's time Sam Crawford had his own thread.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I date all my baseball photos using the following book. (Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century: The Official ML BB Guide, Researched, Illustrated & Written by Marc Okkonen, 1991, 1993)

    Also, the following website, hostd by the Hall of Fame, mainly using the same book above, but also using images after 1993, has assisted me in dating some of the photos. http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.o...e.htm#database

    On this photographic gallery, I have attempted, using the book above, to date all the photos. If I caption a photo with the following, John Smith, Cubs OF, 1910-13, that means that the photo was taken sometime between 1910-13, when the player was on the Cubs. It does NOT mean that the player was only on the Cubs in that time frame. He might have been on the Cubs from 1900-18, but the photo was only taken between 1910-13.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If you enjoy this photo gallery, you might also like our other ones, too.

    Historical, Archival Photographs---Pre-1900---Negro L.---Vintage Panoramic Pictures---Members' Gallery---Runningshoes Presents: Photo Op---Meet The Sports Writers

    Photos of the following individual players---Hank Aaron---Pete Alexander---Ty Cobb---Eddie Collins---Sam Crawford---Jimmy Foxx---Lou Gehrig---Rickey Henderson---Rogers Hornsby---Joe Jackson---Walter Johnson---Nap Lajoie---Connie Mack---John McGraw---Mickey Mantle---Christy Mathewson---Willie Mays---Mel Ott---Babe Ruth---George Sisler---Tris Speaker---Pie Traynor---Rube Waddell--- Honus Wagner---Ted Williams---Zack Wheat---Rare Ty Cobb ---Rare Babe Ruth---Bill's Babe Ruth---Rare Ted Williams---Bill's Rare Finds ---Babefan's Fantastic Vintage Baseball photos---GaryL's Boston Public Library Baseball Photo Project

    We also have some very nice, attractive team photo collections---New York Yankees---New York Giants---Detroit Tigers---Pittsburgh Pirates---Brooklyn Dodgers

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Source: Top, Left: Sam Crawford: Baseball's Best, by Martin Appel, 1980, pp. 115.
    Source: Top, Middle: Sam Crawford: The National League, An Illustrated History, by Donald Honig, 1987, pp. 12.
    Source: Top, Right: Sam Crawford: Baseball As I Have Known It, by Fred Lieb, 1977, pp. 77.
    Source: Second from Top, Left: Sam Crawford: Baseball's Best, by Martin Appel, 1980, pp. 114.
    Source: Second from Top, Right: Sam Crawford: 150 Years of Baseball, 1989, pp. 100. Or, The Sporting News Selects Baseball's Greatest Players, by Ron Smith, 1998, pp. 182.
    Source: Third from Top, Left: Baseball's Golden Age, The Photographs of Charles M. Conlon, by Neil McCabe/Constance McCabe, 1993, pp. 86.
    Source: Third from Top, Right: My Life In Baseball - The True Record, Ty Cobb with Al Stump, 1961, pp. 24.

    Sam Crawford, Detroit RF/1B, 1905-06, Occasionally filled in at 1B----------------------------------------------------- 1910---BB Ref


    'Wahoo Sam' Crawford, 1907-11----------------------------------------1908-11-------------------------------------1907-11---------------------------------------1905-11.


    2 Shots of Sam in 1917, his last ML season. Note the small US flag on his shoulder. 1917 was the only season Detroit uniforms sported the flag, for WWI.


    -----------------------2 Shots of Sam in 1907, Chicago.



    -----------2 Shots of Sam in 1905.---------------Sam is on the left, in black. Sometimes he played 1B for the Tigers.


    -----------2 Shots of Sam in 1915-16---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1905-07


    --------------------------October 8, 1909--------------------------------------------------------------------1905-06


    -----------------------2 Shots of Sam in 1912-13


    --------------------------------------------1914-15--------------------------------------------------------------1912-13---------------------1899: rookie with the Reds

    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-25-2011 at 12:37 PM.

  2. #2
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    1
    Sam Crawford's Relative Stats:

    Crawford-----Rel.BA---------Rel.Onb---------Rel.Slg.------OPS+-------Rel.ISO+
    ------------118.9 (28th)-----110 (158th)------131 (38th)--145 (49th)----185.2 (25th)
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Home/Away--BA----Slg.----onbase---HR---D-------T-----RBI------AB------BB
    Home:-----.318---459-----.370-----42---199-----165----???-----4,633----377
    Away:-----.302---.447-----.352------56---264----144----???------4,937---383
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hitting Stats:

    Crawford, Cobb, Wagner, Hornsby, Ruth, Gehrig, T. Williams, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Speaker, Lajoie, Musial, Collins, J. Jackson, Wheat, Roush, Foxx, Clemente, Schmidt, Yaz, Anson, Bonds, B. Williams, Kiner, Killebrew, Rose, Gwynn, Kaline, Greenberg, Waner, R. Jackson, Boggs, Gehringer, Brouthers, Delahanty, Simmons, Mize, Brett, F. Robinson, Ashburn, Sisler, Snider, Banks, Molitor, Keeler, Bench, Terry, Henderson.
    Code:
    Crawford----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----0----1---6---2----1----3----2---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---4----5----4---3---2----1----4----6---0---4---0---0--2
    3rd----------1----4----0---3---2----0----2----2---0---3---0---0--4
    4th----------2----0----1---0---1----1----2----1---2---1---0---0--3
    5th----------0----2----0---0---3----2----1----2---2---2---0---0--0
    6th----------1----0----2---3---1----0----2----1---1---0---1---0--1
    
    Cobb--------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--12---8----3----4----1---5---4---6----7----8----6---0--11
    2nd-league---3---3----4----4----2---2---2---2----7----3----1---1---3
    3rd----------1---3----4----2----2---2---1---2----0----3----2---0---1 
    4th----------2---0----0----1----0---1---0---1----0----1----3---1---1
    5th----------1---0----0----1----0---2---1---0----1----0----0---1---0
    6th----------2---0----2----0----0---0---0---0----0----0----0---0---0
    
    Wagner-------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----8---2----7----3----0---2---5----7---4----6----5---0--6
    2nd league----2---2----1----3----1---2---2----1---1----3----0---0--2
    3rd-----------0---5----3----2----0---2---2----4---2----2----2---0--2
    4th-----------2---3----0----0----1---2---3----2---1----1----0---1--1
    5th-----------1---1----1----0----2---1---1----2---2----0----0---0--0
    6th-----------1---0----0----1----2---0---1----0---0----1----0---1--0
    
    Hornsby-----BA---Hits-2B---3B--HR----R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---8----4----4----2---2----5---4----7----9----9----0---3--12
    2nd league---2----1----1----1---2----1---1----2----1----1----0---1---1
    3rd----------1----1----1----1---3----0---2----0----1----1----0---0---0
    4th----------1----3----4----0---1----2---0----0----0----1----0---2---0
    5th----------0----0----0----0---5----0---0----0----0----1----0---0---0
    6th----------0----0----0----1---1----0---1----1----1----0----0---2---1
    
    Ruth---------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1----0----1----0---12---8---6----6----9---13----0--11--13
    2nd league----2----0----1----0----2---1---2--- 3----2----1----0---1---1
    3rd-----------2----0----1----0----1---0---0----2----1----1----0---1---2
    4th-----------1----3----0----0----0---0---3----0----2----0----0---0---0
    5th-----------1----0----0----0----0---1---0----0----0----0----0---0---0
    6th-----------0----2----1----1----0---1---1----0----0----0----0---0---0
    
    Gehrig------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR--Runs--RBI--TB---OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league---1----1----1----4----2----4----4----2----4----2---0---3--3
    2nd league---2----3----0----0----4----2----4----3----2----4---0---2--6
    3rd----------3----0----0----1----3----3----2----2----3----1---0---3--3
    4th----------0----1----0----0----1----2----2----0----0----3---0---0--0
    5th----------2----1----0----0----1----0----0----1----1----0---0---0--0
    6th----------1----0----1----0----1----0----0----1----0----0---0---1--0			
    							
    Ted Williams--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league-----6----0----2---0---4---6----4----6---12---8---0---8--9
    2nd in league--2----1----2---0---4---1----2----0----0---1---0---1--1
    3rd------------1----2----0---0---2---1----1----4----0---1---0---2--3
    4th------------1----1----2---0---0---1----1----0----0---2---0---0--0
    5th------------0----4----0---0---0---0----1----0----0---0---0---1--0
    6th------------0----0----0---0---3---0----0----0----1---0---0---1--0
    												
    Mickey Mantle--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league------1----1----0---1---4----6----1----3---3---4---0---5--8
    2nd in league---1----0----1---0---3----2----3----4---5---0---0---3--3
    3rd-------------1----0----0---0---2----1----1----2---1---2---0---2--1
    4th-------------2----2----0---1---0----0----0----1---2---0---2---0--0	
    5th-------------0----0----0---0---1----0----2----0---0---0---0---0--0
    6th-------------0----0----0---1---0----1----3----0---1---1---0---1--0				
    
    Willie Mays----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league------1----1----0---3----4---2----0----3---2---5---4---1--6
    2nd in league---3----1----1---1----1---5----2----5---1---3---0---1--1
    3rd-------------2----1----1---1----3---3----3----5---2---2---0---2--5
    4th-------------0----0----0---0----1---0----2----1---1---2---1---1--2
    5th-------------1----1----0---0----2---0----1----1---5---4---0---1--0
    6th-------------1----2----2---0----2---2----2----0---1---0---0---3--1	
    
    Hank Aaron----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league-----2---2----4---0---4----3----4---8---0---4---0---0--3
    2nd in league--0---3----2---2---4----1----0---2---2---5---1---1--4
    3rd------------0---1----1---0---1----4----2---2---3---4---0---2--4
    4th------------3---0----1---2---2----2----2---2---1---1---2---2--1
    5th------------4---0----0---0---2----1----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
    6th------------0---3----1---0---2----1----1---1---1---2---2---0--2	
    
    Joe DiMaggio---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league------2---0----0---1---2---1----2----3---0----2---0---0--1
    2nd in league---0---1----1---0---0---2----3----2---0----5---0---0--4
    3rd-------------2---1----0---4---1---0----3----1---2----0---0---0--2
    4th-------------0---2----1---0---5---0----1----1---3----0---0---0--0
    5th-------------0---0----0---0---2---2----1----2---0----0---0---0--1
    6th-------------0---1----1---0---1---1----1----0---0----1---0---0--0
    
    Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1
    2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4
    3rd------------7---2----1---1---0---2----1----2---4---4---1---0--5	
    4th------------2---4----0---0---2---2----2----3---3---4---1---4--3
    5th------------1---2----0---0---0---0----0----1---1---2---3---2--3
    6th------------1---0----1---1---0---2----0----0---0---1---1---3--0
    
    Nap Lajoie---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league----3---4----5---0---1----1----3---4---2---4---0---0--3
    2nd in league-3---0----4---1---0----1----1---2---2---3---0---0--3
    3rd-----------1---1----1---0---1----0----2---0---1---2---0---0--0
    4th-----------1---1----1---0---0----1----1---2---1---0---0---0--1
    5th-----------0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0---0--0
    6th-----------3---1----0---0---2----0----1---0---0---2---1---0--4
    
    Stan Musial-BA--Hits-2B---3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league---7---6----8----5---0---5----2----6---6---6----0---1--6
    2nd league---2---3----3----1---1---4----0----2---7---3----0---0--4
    3rd----------5---2----1----1---1---4----3----1---0---0----0---2--0
    4th----------2---1----0----2---1---1----2----2---2---3----0---2--3
    5th----------1---0----0----1---1---1----2----2---0---1----0---2--0
    6th----------0---0----2----0---1---0----0----1---1---0----0---0--1
    
    Ed Collins--BA--Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led League---0---0----0---0----0---3----0---0----0---0---4---1--0
    2nd league---3---2----0---1----0---1----0---0----3---0---4---5--1
    3rd----------0---1----0---0----0---2----1---1----7---1---2---2--2
    4th----------5---1----1---0----0---2----0---0----2---0---2---2--2
    5th----------2---3----0---1----0---0----1---3----2---1---1---1--3
    6th----------1---1----0---2----0---1----0---1----1---2---1---1--0
    
    J.Jackson---BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----2----1---3---0---0----0---2---1----1----0---0--0
    2nd league---3----2----2---1---0---1----0---2---2----3----0---0--3
    3rd league---2----2----2---2---1---2----1---1---0----1----0---1--2
    4th----------2----2----0---1---0---1----4---1---3----2----0---0--1
    5th----------0----0----0---0---1---0----0---0---1----2----0---0--3
    6th----------0----0----0---0---0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0--0
    
    Z. Wheat----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---1----0----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----1----0---0--0
    2nd league---1----3----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----0----0---0--1
    3rd league---2----2----1---0---0---1----2---0----0----1----0---0--1
    4th----------2----0----0---0---1---0----0---0----2----2----0---0--1
    5th----------1----1----0---2---2---0----1---0----1----1----0---0--2
    6th----------0----0----0---1---2---1----2---0----0----0----0---0--1
    
    Edd Roush--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----0----1---1---1---0----0---1---0----1----0---0--1
    2nd league--2----0----1---2---0---0----1---0---0----0----1---0--1
    3rd league--1----3----0---3---0---0----1---0---1----1----0---0--2
    4th---------1----1----0---1---1---0----0---1---1----1----1---0--1
    5th---------1----1----0---0---0---2----0---1---1----0----0---0--0
    6th---------0----1----0---0---0---0----1---2---1----1----1---0--1
    
    J. Foxx-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---2-----0---0---0---4---1----3---3---3---5----0---2--5
    2nd league---2-----1---0---0---3---2----0---1---3---1----0---1--2
    3rd league---1-----2---0---0---2---1----3---0---3---2----0---3--0
    4th----------0-----0---0---0---3---2----2---3---0---1----0---4--3
    5th----------1-----0---0---0---0---1----0---1---2---2----0---0--1
    6th----------0-----0---0---0---0---1----2---1---0---1----0---0--0
    
    Clemente----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---4----2----0---1----0---0----0----0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---2----1----1---1----0---0----2----1---1---0---0---0--1
    3rd league---1----1----0---2----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--1
    4th----------2----1----0---1----0---2----0----0---1---0---0---0--0
    5th----------1----1----1---4----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--0
    6th----------0----1----2---1----0---0----0----0---3---1---0---0--1
    
    Schmidt-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----0----0---0---8---1----4---3---3---5----0---4--6
    2nd league---0----0----0---0---1---2----1---1---0---2----0---2--1
    3rd league---0----0----0---0---2---6----4---0---0---2----0---3--2
    4th----------1----0----0---0---1---0----0---1---3---3----0---3--1
    5th----------0----0----0---0---0---0----0---4---1---0----0---0--1
    6th----------0----0----0---0---1---1----0---0---0---0----0---1--0
    
    Yaz----------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----3----2---3---0---1----3----1---2---5---3----0---2--4
    2nd league----2----0---1---0---0----1----0---0---1---0----0---3--1
    3rd league----0----0---2---1---1----1----1---0---1---0----0---1--0
    4th-----------0----2---0---0---1----1----0---2---0---1----0---1--0
    5th-----------0----1---0---0---0----1----1---0---0---0----0---2--0
    6th-----------0----1---1---0---0----0----0---2---0---0----0---0--1
    
    Anson-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs--RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----1----3--0---0-----0----8---1---4----0----0---1---1
    2nd league--5----4----2--1---0-----0----3---2---5----4----0---1---2
    3rd league--2----2----2--0---4-----0----3---2---1----1----0---1---1
    4th---------1----0----2--0---1-----2----0---2---1----3----0---2---3
    5th---------2----3----0--1---1-----2----0---0---2----1----0---0---3
    6th---------0----0----1--0---0-----4----0---3---3----0----0---2---1
    
    Bonds------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----0----0--0---2---1----1---1---8----7----0--10---9
    2nd league--0----0----0--0---5---3----1---0---3----1----0---4---3
    3rd league--1----0----0--0---1---6----0---1---0----1----1---1---2
    4th---------1----0----0--0---4---0----4---0---2----3----1---0---0
    5th---------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---3---1----1----2---0---1
    6th---------0----0----0--2---0---3----2---1---0----1----2---0---0
    
    B. Williams--BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---1----0--0---0---1----0---3---0---1---0---0--1
    2nd league----0---0----1--1---2---0----3---1---1---0---0---0--0
    3rd league----0---3----3--1---3---0----0---1---0---2---0---0--1
    4th-----------2---0----1--0---1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0--0
    5th-----------0---1----0--1---0---2----0---1---0---0---0---0--0
    6th-----------0---1----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---1---0---1--0
    
    Kiner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0---0----0--0---7---1----1---1---1---3---0---3--0
    2nd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----3---2---0---0---0---3--0
    3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---1----1---0---2---1---0---0--0
    4th league---1---0----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---2---0---1--2
    5th----------1---0----0--0---1---1----1---0---0---0---0---0--0
    6th----------0---1----0--0---0---0----1---0---2---0---0---1--0
    
    Killebrew---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---0---0----0--0---6----0----3---0---1---1---0---4---0
    2nd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---2---1---3---0---1---1
    3rd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---4---2---4---0---3---2
    4th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---0---5---0---0---1---5
    5th----------1---0----0--0---2----0----0---2---2---2---0---1---2
    6th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---1---0---0---0---0---0
    
    Rose--------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---3---7---5--0---0---4----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
    2nd league---2---5---2--2---0---3----0---1---1---0---0---0---0
    3rd league---0---1---4--0---0---3----0---1---3---0---0---0---0
    4th----------1---1---0--0---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
    5th----------1---2---2--2---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
    6th----------0---0---0--1---0---0----0---1---0---0---0---1---1
    
    Gwynn------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--8---7----0--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--0
    2nd league--1---0----1--3---0----0----0---0----2---0---1---0--0
    3rd league--2---1----1--0---0----0----0---1----0---0---0---0--1
    4th---------1---0----1--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--1
    5th---------1---0----0--1---0----0----0---0----2---0---0---0--0
    6th---------0---0----0--0---0----0----1---0----0---0---1---0--1
    
    Kaline-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league--1----1---1--0---0----0----0---1----0---1---0---0---1
    2nd league--3----1---1--0---0----1----2---1----3---1---0---0---2
    3rd league--2----1---1--0---0----0----0---0----2---1---0---0---1
    4th---------1----1---0--1---0----0----0---2----0---1---1---0---1
    5th---------0----0---2--1---0----1----1---0----2---1---0---1---0
    6th---------0----1---1--1---0----1----1---1----0---1---1---1---0
    
    Greenberg---BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----0----2--0---4----1---4---2---0---1---0---2--0
    2nd league---0----0----2--0---2----1---1---3---2---4---0---1--4
    3rd league---0----0----1--1---0----1---1---1---2---2---0---0--1
    4th----------0----1----0--0---0----1---1---0---0---0---0---0--2
    5th----------1----1----0--1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0--0
    6th----------1----1----0--0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0---3--0
    
    Waner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---3---2----2--2---0---2----1---1---0---0---0---0---0
    2nd league---1---3----1--5---0---2----0---0---2---0---1---2---0
    3rd league---0---1----1--0---0---0----0---1---2---1---0---1---1
    4th----------3---1----2--1---0---1----0---2---1---2---0---1---4
    5th----------1---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---0---0---0
    6th----------0---2----1--0---0---1----0---1---2---0---0---0---1
    
    R.Jackson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league----0---0----0--0---4----2---1---0---0---3---0---0---4
    2nd league----0---0----3--0---3----0---0---3---0---2---0---1---1
    3rd league----0---0----0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---0---0
    4th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---1---1---1---0---0---1---1
    5th-----------0---0----1--0---2----2---0---0---1---2---0---1---1
    6th-----------0---0----0--0---0----0---3---0---2---1---0---0---1
    
    Boggs--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---5----1----2--0---0---2----0---0---6---0---0---1--1
    2nd league---1----5----3--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---0--2
    3rd league---2----0----2--0---0---1----0---0---1---1---0---3--0
    4th----------1----2----1--0---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
    5th----------2----0----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---0---2--0
    6th----------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--1
    
    Gehringer---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---1---2----2--1---0----2----0---0---0---0---1---0--0
    2nd league---1---2----2--1---0----1----0---0---2---0---1---0--0
    3rd league---0---0----1--1---0----3----0---0---0---0---0---1--0
    4th----------1---0----2--0---0----1----0---2---1---0---0---1--0
    5th----------2---3----0--1---0----2----1---0---1---0---0---2--0
    6th----------0---0----0--0---0----0----0---4---1---0---0---1--1
    
    Brouthers----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----5---3----3---1---2----2---2---4---5---7---0---0--8
    2nd league----1---2----2---4---1----0---2---2---5---3---0---0--1
    3rd league----2---1----1---2---2----1---1---1---0---0---0---0--2
    4th-----------1---1----2---1---0----0---1---1---1---0---0---2--0
    5th-----------1---2----0---1---2----1---1---0---1---0---0---0--0
    6th-----------0---0----1---0---0----0---1---3---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Delahanty----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---1----5--1---2---0----3---2---2---5---1---0--4
    2nd league----3---1----3--0---0---0----2---2---1---2---0---0--3
    3rd league----2---1----2--2---1---1----1---2---2---1---0---0--1
    4th-----------2---2----1--0---2---1----0---1---0---1---0---2--1
    5th-----------0---1----0--0---1---2----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
    6th-----------2---0----0--2---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---2--1
    
    Mize---------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league----1---0---1--1---4---1----3---3---0---4---0---0---2
    2nd league----2---0---1--0---2---1----1---4---2---3---0---0---5
    3rd league----0---3---1--2---1---2----3---0---1---2---0---2---2
    4th-----------0---0---0--0---1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
    5th-----------3---1---0--1---1---1----1---0---2---0---0---1---0
    6th-----------0---2---0--0---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---1---0
    
    Brett-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---3---3----2--3---0----0---0---1---3---3---0---0---3
    2nd league---2---0----2--1---0----1---1---2---1---0---0---0---0
    3rd league---0---0----2--0---0----1---0---0---1---0---0---1---0
    4th----------0---0----1--1---0----1---0---1---1---1---0---0---0
    5th----------0---1----1--1---0----1---1---1---0---1---0---0---2
    6th----------2---0----0--2---0----0---1---0---1---2---0---0---0
    
    F.Robinson---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---0----1--0---1----3---1---1---2---4---0---0--4
    2nd league----2---2----0--0---2----2---4---1---6---1---0---1--1
    3rd league----1---1----3--1---3----0---2---1---0---0---1---1--1
    4th-----------1---0----1--0---3----1---0---3---3---5---1---2--1
    5th-----------1---0----0--0---2----2---1---0---0---1---0---1--7
    6th-----------2---1----2--0---1----1---0---1---0---1---1---0--1
    
    Ashburn-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---2---3----0--2---0---0----0---0---4---0---1---4---0
    2nd league---2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---2---0
    3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---1---0
    4th----------0---0----1--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---1---0---0
    5th----------0---1----1--3---0---2----0---0---1---0---2---1---1
    6th----------2---3----0--0---0---2----0---0---0---0---2---1---0
    
    Sisler-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----2---2----0--2---0---1----0---2---0---0---4---0--0
    2nd league----1---1----1--2---2---2----1---1---1---2---2---0--1
    3rd league----2---3----1--1---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
    4th-----------2---3----1--0---0---1----1---1---0---2---0---0--1
    5th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---1---0--1
    6th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----2---0---1---0---1---0--1
    
    Snider------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---0----1---0--0---1----3---1---3---1---2---0---1---1
    2nd league---0----1---2--0---1----1---1---1---1---2---0---0---1
    3rd league---2----1---2--2---1----0---1---0---2---0---0---1---2
    4th----------1----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---1---0
    5th----------1----0---0--0---0----0---0---3---0---1---1---1---0
    6th----------0----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---1---1---1
    
    Simmons-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---2---2----0--0---0----1---1---2---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---2---0----2--0---1----2---2---2---0---3---0---0--0
    3rd league---1---3----0--0---2----0---2---1---0---3---0---0--2
    4th----------3---3----0--0---1----0---1---1---0---0---0---0--1
    5th----------0---0----0--0---3----0---2---1---0---2---0---0--1
    6th----------0---0----0--1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0---0--1
    
    Banks--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---1---0---1---0---0--0
    2nd league----0---0----0--1---2---2----0---1---0---1---0---0--1
    3rd league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---3---0---0---0---0--0
    4th-----------0---1----1--0---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--1
    5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----1---0---0---2---0---0--2
    6th-----------1---0----0--0---1---0----1---1---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Bench------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--0---0----0--0---2---0----3---1---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league--0---0----1--0---1---1----1---1---0---0---0---0--1
    3rd league--0---0----2--0---0---0----1---1---0---2---0---1--0
    4th---------0---0----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---2---0---0--0
    5th---------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
    6th---------0---0----1--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Molitor-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0---3----1--1---0---3----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---2---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--0
    3rd league---1---2----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---1---0--1
    4th----------1---2----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---2---0--0
    5th----------2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
    6th----------3---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---0--1
    
    Terry--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league----3---3----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---0---0---0--0
    3rd league----0---1----1--1---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--0
    4th-----------2---1----0--2---1---0----0---2---1---0---0---0--2
    5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----2---0---2---1---0---0--1
    6th-----------1---0----0--0---0---2----1---0---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Keeler-----BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----3----0--0---0----1---0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league--2----5----0--0---0----5---0---1---1---1---0---0--1
    3rd league--1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---2---0---0---0--0
    4th---------3----2----0--1---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--1
    5th---------1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--0
    6th---------1----0----0--1---0----1---0---2---1---0---0---0--0
    
    Henderson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB-BB--OPS+
    led league----0---1----0--0---0----5---0---0---1---0---12--4---1
    2nd league----1---0----0--1---0----1---0---0---2---1----0--2---1
    3rd league----0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---6---0----0--1---0
    4th-----------2---0----0--0---0----3---0---0---1---0----2--5---0
    5th-----------0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---2---0----1--0---0
    6th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---0---1---1---0----2--1---0
    Here are the results of our 1st. RF poll, conducted by leecemark, December 8, 2004, 07:48 PM

    1) Babe Ruth 210
    2) Hank Aaron 189
    3) Frank Robinson 163
    4) Mel Ott 131
    5) Al Kaline 74
    6) Tony Gwynn 72
    7) Roberto Clemente 71
    8) Reggie Jackson 54
    9) Paul Waner 52
    10) Sam Crawford 49
    11) Harry Heilmann 30
    12) Pete Rose 12
    12) Ichiro Suzuki 12
    14) Dave Winfield 9
    14) Willie Keeler 9

    --other vote getters; Chuck Klein, Tony Oliva, Roger Maris, Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice, Sam Thompson, Dwight Evans and Sammy Sosa.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here are the results of our 2nd. poll, conducted by 538280, December 27, 2005, 10:55 AM

    We had 15 ballots submitted, and unsurprisingly, Babe Ruth was unanimously elected as our #1 RFer, with Hank Aaron also being a unanimous #2 choice. Frank Robinson and Mel Ott were the clear #3 and #4, but then after that things get really interesting. Here's everyone who received 12 or more points (first place votes in parenthesis):

    1. Babe Ruth-180 (15)
    2. Hank Aaron-135
    3. Frank Robinson-115
    4. Mel Ott-99
    5. Tony Gwynn-53
    6. Sam Crawford-50
    7. Reggie Jackson-49
    8. Roberto Clemente-42
    9. Pete Rose-38
    10. Al Kaline-35
    11. Paul Waner-22
    12. Gary Sheffield-12
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Here are the results of our 3rd. poll, conducted by Bill Burgess, June 6, 2007, 05:46 PM

    1. Babe Ruth - 159
    2. Hank Aaron - 145
    3. Frank Robinson - 124
    4. Mel Ott - 83
    5. Paul Waner - 79
    6. Reggie Jackson - 67
    7. Roberto Clemente - 55
    8. Tony Gwynn - 52
    9. Sam Crawford - 47
    10. Al Kaline - 41
    11. Pete Rose - 12.5
    12. Gary Sheffield - 12
    13. Harry Heilmann - 9
    13. Vladimir Guerrero - 9
    13. Dave Winfield - 9
    16. Ichiro Suzuki - 2.5
    17. Willie Keeler - 2
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Relative ISO: Some Pre-1920 hitters:

    Gavvy Cravath 217
    Harry Stovey 189
    Joe Jackson 187
    Sam Crawford 183
    Dan Brouthers 178
    Sam Thompson 174
    Roger Connor 172
    Honus Wagner 167
    Ed Delahanty 166
    Tris Speaker 163
    Frank Baker 162
    Ty Cobb 159
    Nap Lajoie 159
    Buck Ewing 154
    Ross Barnes 150
    Pete Browning 141
    Mike 'King' Kelly 138
    Jimmy Ryan 138
    Ned Williamson 135
    Bill Lange 126
    Cap Anson 121
    George Gore 114
    Jesse Burkett 114
    Herman Long 109
    Eddie Collins 103
    Hughie Jennings 101
    Billy Hamilton 0.89
    Willie Keeler 0.84
    John McGraw 0.77

    Source: Top: Peach, Ty Cobb in His Time and Ours, by Richard Bak, 2005, pp. 82.
    Source: Middle, Left: Peach, Ty Cobb in His Time and Ours, by Richard Bak, 2005, pp. 108.
    Source: Middle, Right: Smithsonian Baseball, by Stephen Wong, 2005, pp. 119.
    Source: Bottom, Left: The Detroit Tigers, by Fred Lieb, 1946, pp. 41. Or the more cropped The Sporting News Selects Baseball's Greatest Players, by Ron Smith, 1998, pp. 183.
    Source: Bottom, Right: Baseball's Golden Age: The Photographs of Charles M. Conlon, by Neal McCabe/Constance McCabe, 1993, pp. 142.

    --------------------Ty Cobb, Joe Jackson, Sam Crawford: 1911-12-------------------------------------------1917 (note shoulder patch)


    -------------Bobby Veach, Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford: 1915-----------------------------------------------1912


    --------------------------1908-11-----------------------------------------------------1912-13



    -------------1917


    ----------------1913


    1917.

    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-20-2011 at 12:46 PM.

  3. #3

    You are so right

    This is an overdue thread, and one which I'd been mulling over myself, though I'm not nearly so erudite as to give it justice. Looking at these terrific pictures, seeing in the mind's eye the portrait of a ballplayer, it is hard to comprehend how opposing teams must have approached Detroit: Cobb AND Crawford? No fair...

    Wahoo is one of the players that I'd follow, other than the obvious 4 or 5 (Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, Jackson, a couple of the pitchers like Walter, Christy, Cy) from that era. Was he, in the opinion of readers, as much a second fiddle to Cobb as was, say, Gehrig to Ruth? Simmons to Foxx? Matthews to Aaron? I can't say Berra to Mantle, since Yogi won 3 MVPs, but same sort of bailiwick. To me, Crawford is nearly as under-rated as Spahn, or Musial. Am I really far off-base, and wrong as usual?
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 05-16-2009 at 01:08 PM.

  4. #4
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    Code:
    FName	LName		Year	Team	Lg	BA+	OBP+	SLG+	OPS+	ISO+
    Sam	Crawford	1899	CIN	NL	105	89	122	115	179
    Sam	Crawford	1900	CIN	NL	93	92	117	105	192
    Sam	Crawford	1901	CIN	NL	130	124	158	162	248
    Sam	Crawford	1902	CIN	NL	115	111	129	164	190
    Sam	Crawford	1903	DET	AL	132	121	142	156	173
    Sam	Crawford	1904	DET	AL	105	106	114	113	141
    Sam	Crawford	1905	DET	AL	120	116	132	150	174
    Sam	Crawford	1906	DET	AL	113	107	121	135	152
    Sam	Crawford	1907	DET	AL	122	114	139	163	208
    Sam	Crawford	1908	DET	AL	122	113	141	164	210
    Sam	Crawford	1909	DET	AL	120	113	136	159	196
    Sam	Crawford	1910	DET	AL	108	99	123	137	173
    Sam	Crawford	1911	DET	AL	128	120	136	169	160
    Sam	Crawford	1912	DET	AL	123	113	135	141	173
    Sam	Crawford	1913	DET	AL	121	112	142	151	210
    Sam	Crawford	1914	DET	AL	119	115	140	162	207
    Sam	Crawford	1915	DET	AL	112	105	123	139	157
    Sam	Crawford	1916	DET	AL	107	105	115	129	141
    Sam	Crawford	1917	DET	AL	68	63	82	45	129
    Sam	Crawford	Career			116	110	131	145	180

    I used my own database, and the Total Baseball relative stats calculations (rather than the Baseball Reference ones, as the former is easier) to compute relative stats for Sam Crawford.

  5. #5
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    The top three sluggers of the deadball era were Crawford, Wagner, and Cobb, in that order. Cobb holds a number of relative slugging titles, but those who choose to look at this as proof of Cobb's supremacy are missing the effect of his high batting averages. Batting average drives up slugging. I did a study that showed when one equalizes the batting averages for these three players, Sam Crawford is easily the greatest power hitter of the deadball era, with Wagner leading Cobb by a slim margin. Given that there are other factors that we do not have complete statistics for, I would say Wagner vs. Cobb is not a definite. But I am convinced Sam Crawford was the greatest power hitter of his generation.

  6. #6
    I love this photo of Cobb and Crawford: 1908-11
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 08-22-2009 at 03:13 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AstrosFan View Post
    The top three sluggers of the deadball era were Crawford, Wagner, and Cobb, in that order. Cobb holds a number of relative slugging titles, but those who choose to look at this as proof of Cobb's supremacy are missing the effect of his high batting averages. Batting average drives up slugging. I did a study that showed when one equalizes the batting averages for these three players, Sam Crawford is easily the greatest power hitter of the deadball era, with Wagner leading Cobb by a slim margin. Given that there are other factors that we do not have complete statistics for, I would say Wagner vs. Cobb is not a definite. But I am convinced Sam Crawford was the greatest power hitter of his generation.
    I don't think too many are so obsessed with Ty that they'd suggest he was the leading slugger of his time. Ty Cobb was clearly, most definitely NOT the leading slugger of the deadball era.

    His 8 slugging titles do prove that he could slug, however. It is a good indication that he was an all-around hitter, not primarily a slugger. And it is understood, and accepted, that his Slug. Ave. was driven by his BA. But that was the preferred, approved style of that time.

    It is surprising that he could maintain an excellent slugging average when he seldom went for distance. Just as it was always surprising that Babe Ruth could maintain such a high BA, when he did try for distance.

    That is why those 2 hitters were so surprising. It was their over-all excellence which surprises us, that they could post well in the very category that they were not specializing in.

    I have always felt that the hitters of the deadball who deserved to be lauded as 'sluggers', were Delahanty, Brouthers, Wagner, Lajoie, Crawford, Cravath & Joe Jackson.

    But Cobb, Speaker, Anson slugged well, and should not be written off as singles hitters with a little bit of pop. That too, would miss the important historical context. And it's the context which separates the better analysts, from the hacks, who are always afraid of going against the barroom stereo-types.
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-17-2007 at 06:01 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AstrosFan View Post
    I used my own database, and the Total Baseball relative stats calculations (rather than the Baseball Reference ones, as the former is easier) to compute relative stats for Sam Crawford.
    Thank you so very much, AstrosFan. Knew I could count on you! Good job, as usual from you.

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    Judging from AstrosFans chart in post #4, what season do you think represented Sam's Greatest Season?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AstrosFan View Post
    The top three sluggers of the deadball era were Crawford, Wagner, and Cobb, in that order. Cobb holds a number of relative slugging titles, but those who choose to look at this as proof of Cobb's supremacy are missing the effect of his high batting averages. Batting average drives up slugging. I did a study that showed when one equalizes the batting averages for these three players, Sam Crawford is easily the greatest power hitter of the deadball era, with Wagner leading Cobb by a slim margin. Given that there are other factors that we do not have complete statistics for, I would say Wagner vs. Cobb is not a definite. But I am convinced Sam Crawford was the greatest power hitter of his generation.
    Might you have any appetite to construct a small chart, showing the relative stats of the deadball sluggers - Delahanty, Brouthers, Wagner, Lajoie, Crawford, Cravath, Joe Jackson, Cobb, Speaker & Anson?

    Might one persuade you? Might be fun! A lot of fun.

    Bill

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    I think of the deadball era as spanning 1903-19 or 1903-18, so I don't really think of Brouthers, Delahanty, or Anson as deadball players. Cravath was a product of the Baker Bowl. Lajoie may have been a greater power hitter than Cobb, but I am not certain of that. I did not mean to suggest that many people argue in favor of Cobb as the greatest slugger, merely that those who do are missing a key element, which you seem well aware of, Bill.

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    Bill, I'm about to continue working on a margarita, and about to start dinner, but I'll have the data up after that, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

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    Who would like to do some brief, thumb-nail comparisons of Sam with his main fellow right-fielding rivals?

    Ott, Kaline, Gwynn, Clemente, R.Jackson, Waner, Heilmann, Rose, Ichiro.

    Doesn't need to be elaborate. Maybe just a sentence per each?

  14. #14
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    Baseball Magazine for Researchers:

    Many here have heard me go on about The Sporting News. But once upon a time, 1908-1954, there was another publication, Baseball Magazine. It was more like Look/Life, in that it was a features-oriented publication.

    It featured articles on the players, aspects of BB, teams, etc. I would like to share that it is now online, for free, and has up, 1908-18.

    They featured certain players in certain issues. They'd call it their "Ty Cobb number", or "Eddie Collins Number". The said issue would have 3-4 articles of the said player in that issue. So, in the interest of helping research along, I'd like to isolate those issues, which featured certain players.

    Cy Young, September, 1908
    Addie Joss, June, 1911
    Ty Cobb, March, 1912
    Christy Mathewson, December, 1914
    Honus Wagner, January, 1915
    Eddie Collins, March, 1915
    Walter Johnson, April, 1915
    Grover Alexander, January, 1916
    Sam Crawford, February, 1916
    Joe Jackson, March, 1916
    Tris Speaker, March 1917
    Babe Ruth, April, 1920
    George Sisler, March, 1921
    Harry Heilmann, March, 1922
    Rogers Hornsby, April, 1922
    ---------------------------------------------
    Hope this assists researchers. link: http://search.la84foundation.org/sea...om=%3CHOME/%3E
    scroll down to Baseball Magazine, and check the box to its left, before you do your searches.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Along about 1916, and Baseball Magazine still hadn't honored Sam Crawford with his own number (issue). There was heard a hue and cry throughout the land of fandom that an injustice had been committed against old Sam. So loud that they just had to do one on him.

    In it, was a photo of Sam, posed at home, with his wife and new baby, in decked out in their very best 'go-to-meeting' attire. I hope to find that photo, from Baseball Magazine, February, 1916 and post it here.

    Ah! Found them. Just click onto the links below, and scroll down.

    http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports...16/bbm164d.pdf

    http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports...16/bbm164q.pdf
    ------------------------------
    In May, 1908, Baseball Magazine launched as a great baseball magazine with features, photos, articles. It started spot-lighting some of the biggest stars. It would feature a star by publishing 3-4 articles on them in one issue, which it called 'numbers'.

    For some reason, it didn't get around to Sam Crawford until 1916, when the fans clamored for a 'number' for Sam, which had attained a groundswell of support for him. The magazine dispatched a photographer to his home in Detroit, and below are the photos which came out of the session. Showing Sam at home, with his wife, Ada and little daughter, Virginia, who was around 8 years old at the time. Enjoy!

    Sam Crawford, Tigers' RF, 1916, at home---BB Reference



    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-15-2011 at 02:18 PM.

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    2 Walter Johnson quotes on Sam Crawford:
    ---------------------------------------
    "Among the old timers, Sam Crawford stands out in my memory. He too would have thrived in these days of the lively ball. I was touring the Pacific Coast in '24. Babe Ruth was there. I pitched against him and he drove out a tremendous fly for a long home run. Everybody began to yell. It was a true Ruth wallop. Then Sam Crawford came up, an old player long past his prime. I put a lot on the ball and he met it on the nose. It soared out and fell in almost the precise spot where Ruth had put it earlier in the game. That doesn't mean to say that Sam would hit the ball as hard as Ruth all the time or very often. But if he was playing at the Yankee Stadium now, and was in his prime, he'd belt a lot of homers into that right-field stand. (Baseball Magazine, October, 1929, The Greatest Players I Ever Saw, Comprising an Interview with Walter Johnson)
    ------------------------------------------------
    Sam Crawford and Frank Baker were good heavy hitters, uncommonly good but they wouldn't rank with the Frenchman [Nap Lajoie] or with Joe Jackson. (Baseball Magazine, June, 1925, an Interview with Walter Johnson, 'The Greatest Batters I Have Ever Faced')
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-15-2011 at 02:09 PM.

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    Code:
    FName	LName	Year	Team	Lg	BA+	OBP+	SLG+	OPS+	ISO+
    Cap	Anson	1871	RC1	NA	117	112	125	133	148
    Cap	Anson	1872	PH1	NA	145	153	151	204	180
    Cap	Anson	1873	PH1	NA	126	124	116	148	71
    Cap	Anson	1874	PH1	NA	112	111	106	126	82
    Cap	Anson	1875	PH1	NA	115	115	113	138	103
    Cap	Anson	1876	CHN	NL	119	122	125	157	151
    Cap	Anson	1877	CHN	NL	111	111	111	132	110
    Cap	Anson	1878	CHN	NL	121	124	117	147	96
    Cap	Anson	1879	CHN	NL	116	112	118	136	124
    Cap	Anson	1880	CHN	NL	130	128	123	157	102
    Cap	Anson	1881	CHN	NL	146	145	143	193	135
    Cap	Anson	1882	CHN	NL	137	135	139	179	144
    Cap	Anson	1883	CHN	NL	110	109	109	124	107
    Cap	Anson	1884	CHN	NL	125	120	148	175	207
    Cap	Anson	1885	CHN	NL	111	109	123	145	161
    Cap	Anson	1886	CHN	NL	128	125	138	176	163
    Cap	Anson	1887	CHN	NL	114	114	119	144	132
    Cap	Anson	1888	CHN	NL	133	130	142	178	166
    Cap	Anson	1889	CHN	NL	110	116	115	136	127
    Cap	Anson	1890	CHN	NL	116	128	111	142	95
    Cap	Anson	1891	CHN	NL	113	115	117	132	129
    Cap	Anson	1892	CHN	NL	109	109	106	116	97
    Cap	Anson	1893	CHN	NL	112	116	101	116	70
    Cap	Anson	1894	CHN	NL	118	113	116	134	111
    Cap	Anson	1895	CHN	NL	105	105	98	109	78
    Cap	Anson	1896	CHN	NL	108	109	98	111	68
    Cap	Anson	1897	CHN	NL	93	102	88	94	75
    Cap	Anson	Career			116	115	116	137	117
    I am not 100% confident about these numbers, as I have been working from my own database. But they are close enough, I think, that we can make comparisons based off them.

  17. #17
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    Code:
    FName	LName		Year	Team	Lg	BA+	OBP+	SLG+	OPS+	ISO+
    Dan	Brouthers	1879	TRN	NL	115	110	139	142	225
    Dan	Brouthers	1880	TRN	NL	65	82	50	37	0
    Dan	Brouthers	1881	BFN	NL	123	125	161	186	286
    Dan	Brouthers	1882	BFN	NL	143	141	156	200	193
    Dan	Brouthers	1883	BFN	NL	139	134	155	191	198
    Dan	Brouthers	1884	BFN	NL	128	128	160	191	246
    Dan	Brouthers	1885	BFN	NL	143	138	162	203	220
    Dan	Brouthers	1886	DTN	NL	143	144	164	211	223
    Dan	Brouthers	1887	DTN	NL	121	126	142	171	191
    Dan	Brouthers	1888	DTN	NL	127	139	141	180	179
    Dan	Brouthers	1889	BSN	NL	131	129	131	165	130
    Dan	Brouthers	1890	BSP	PL	112	123	111	141	109
    Dan	Brouthers	1891	BS2	AA	137	140	149	188	182
    Dan	Brouthers	1892	BRO	NL	141	140	151	187	179
    Dan	Brouthers	1893	BRO	NL	125	131	140	166	180
    Dan	Brouthers	1894	BLN	NL	106	106	122	132	160
    Dan	Brouthers	1895	BLN	NL	84	77	83	64	80
    Dan	Brouthers	1895	LS3	NL	110	110	130	134	188
    Dan	Brouthers	1896	PHI	NL	118	130	114	143	103
    Dan	Brouthers	1904	NY1	NL	0	0	0	-96	0
    Dan	Brouthers	Career			125	127	140	169	183

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    Rather than continually cluttering up the Sam Crawford thread with numbers on other players, I think I'm just going to stop and put up Crawford's career numbers in relative stats and where he ranks.

    Again, I am working from my own database (derived from the Lahman database), and while I tried to make it as accurate as possible, I may be making some errors in setting it up.

    After regressing the figures to the mean for all players with at least 4000 PA, Crawford ranked at the following places for varying relative stats.

    BA+: 26th
    OBP+: 145th
    SLG+: 24th
    OPS+: 28th
    ISO+ 23rd

    Don't take these rankings as set, I am still concerned about some of the numbers, and believe there may be some flaws in the database (the one I set up in Access, not Sean Lahman's, which I used to set up the database).

    Given that several of the players ahead of Crawford in the ISO+ department are either products of their ballpark, or played in an era more conducive to sluggers who could separate from the pack, I think Crawford deserves to rank as a top 20 slugger all time.
    Last edited by AstrosFan; 12-18-2007 at 05:29 PM.

  19. #19
    I forgot that this is a MC poll, but I did vote him 51-70.
    Ball game over. World Series over! Yankees win thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Yankees win!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by AstrosFan View Post
    Rather than continually cluttering up the Sam Crawford thread with numbers on other players, I think I'm just going to stop and put up Crawford's career numbers in relative stats and where he ranks.

    Again, I am working from my own database (derived from the Lahman database), and while I tried to make it as accurate as possible, I may be making some errors in setting it up.

    After regressing the figures to the mean for all players with at least 4000 PA, Crawford ranked at the following places for varying relative stats.

    BA: 26th
    OBP: 145th
    SLG: 24th
    OPS+: 28th
    ISO+ 23rd

    Don't take these rankings as set, I am still concerned about some of the numbers, and believe there may be some flaws in the database (the one I set up in Access, not Sean Lahman's, which I used to set up the database).

    Given that several of the players ahead of Crawford in the ISO+ department are either products of their ballpark, or played in an era more conducive to sluggers who could separate from the pack, I think Crawford deserves to rank as a top 20 slugger all time.
    Why not use BA+ and OBP+ as well as OPS+ and ISO+
    Ball game over. World Series over! Yankees win thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Yankees win!

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    BA, OBP, and SLG were meant to be BA+, OBP+, and SLG+. That's a typo. Thanks for pointing that out.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by AstrosFan View Post
    Given that several of the players ahead of Crawford in the ISO+ department are either products of their ballpark, or played in an era more conducive to sluggers who could separate from the pack, I think Crawford deserves to rank as a top 20 slugger all time.
    Stros,
    Great work with the numbers. Very interesting stuff, and it's nice to see it so organized and indexed. I completely agree with you about Crawford as the greatest slugger of his era, and definitely top 20 all time.

    Have people here seen Bill James' extrapolation of Sam Crawford's stats playing in the 1920's and 30's in his New Abstract? Pretty staggering totals and rate stats. One year, I think James projects Crawford as driving in close to 170 runs. I doubt any true slugger was ever more handicapped by his time and place than Crawford....

    Bill, I remember reading an article which quoted Cobb as saying that he believed Crawford would have approached 40 homers annually playing his prime against the live ball. I believe it was when he was petitioning to induct Crawford into the Hall of Fame. Do you have that quote or that article? Or any articles written by Cobb on Crawford?

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    James's extrapolation suggests that Crawford was extremely consistent throughout his career. Except for a couple of years late in his (extrapolated) career, Crawford's home run totals generally are in the high 20s/low 30s. And yet Crawford finishes with 494 home runs. Crawford's RBI totals are unremarkable year to year, with the exception of the 167 RBI season for his projected 1930 total. And yet he has 1931 RBI in his career if he started in 1919, according to James.

    Number of 25+ home run seasons for Crawford: 15
    Number of 100+ RBI seasons for Crawford: 14

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    So far, it looks as though I'm the only one who ranks Crawford out of the top ten, though it is admittedly a very small sample. I rank Crawford 11th, behind, in alphabetical order:

    Hank Aaron
    Roberto Clemente
    Tony Gwynn
    Reggie Jackson
    Al Kaline
    Mel Ott
    Frank Robinson
    Pete Rose
    Babe Ruth
    Gary Sheffield


    However, I think there is an argument to be made that Rose should be classified as a left fielder, since he played more games there. Bill James lists Rose as a right fielder, which suggests to me that Rose may have played more of his prime years in right field. I'm not sure where he should be listed. If Rose is a right fielder, then I rank Crawford 11th. If Rose is a left fielder, then I rank Crawford 10th. Part of the reason I have so many ahead of Wahoo Sam, despite his great numbers, is the league quality factor. Crawford played in a very weak league, not quite as weak as Wagner's but still, one of the weakest of the century.

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    Does anyone know if Sam's home/away breakdown splits are available?

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