Best outside the Hall by position

**DoubleX** · 08-07-2005, 04:37 PM

Of players eligible, who are the best player at each position not in the Hall of Fame? I got:

First Team
1B: Keith Hernandez
2B: Joe Gordon
SS: Alan Trammell
3B: Ron Santo
C: Ted Simmons
LF: Minnie Minoso
CF: Andre Dawson (could also be considered a RF, but I figured most of his best years came while in CF)
RF: Bobby Bonds

SP: Bert Blyleven
RP: Goose Gossage

Second Team
1B: Don Mattingly
2B: Bobby Grich
SS: Vern Stephens
3B: Ken Boyer
C: Bill Freehan
LF: Frank Howard
CF: Dale Murphy
RF: Tony Oliva

SP: Luis Tiant
RP: Bruce Sutter

Honorable Mention Team
1B: Norm Cash (Gil Hodges just misses)
2B: Lou Whitaker
SS: Dave Concepcion
3B: Darrell Evans
C: Joe Torre
LF: Jim Rice
CF: Vada Pinson
RF: Rocky Colavito

SP: Jim Kaat
RP: Dan Quisenberry

**Lindseynelson** · 08-08-2005, 07:08 AM

For what it's worth--1b- Donnie Baseball-2b- Bobby Grich-ss-Davey Concepcion---3b Ron Santo--C-Ted Simmons-RF- Dewey Evans--CF- Mickey Rivers( loved Mick the Quick!)- lf-Andre Dawson......Starters- Mel Stott( compare to Don Drysdale),Jim Kaat , Bert Blyleven, Mike Quellar , reliever Lee Smith

**leecemark** · 08-08-2005, 07:21 AM

Amoung MLB players only
C: Simmons, Freehan
1B: Allen, Hernandez
2B: Gordon, Grich
3B: Santo, Boyer
SS: Trammell, Dahlen
Lf: Minoso, Magee
CF: Murphy, Wynn (or Reggie Smith or Lynn)
RF: Dawson, Dwight Evans (or Oliva or Parker or Colavito)

**Ubiquitous** · 08-08-2005, 02:46 PM

1B: Dick Allen
2B: Lou Whitaker
3B: Ron Santo
SS: Alan Trammell
C: Thurman Munson
LF Minnie Minoso
CF: Fred Lynn, I would say Richie Ashburn but he is in though most people probably don't know that.
RF: Bobby Bonds

P: Goose Gossage
P: Bert Blyleven

**Naliamegod** · 08-08-2005, 03:44 PM

C: Bill Freehan
1B: Dick Allen
2B: Joe Gordon
3B: Ron Santo
SS: Alan Trammel
LF: Minnie Minoso
CF: Dale Murphy
RF: Tony Olivo

SP: Bert Blylven
RP: Rich Gossage

**yest** · 08-08-2005, 04:09 PM

C Deacon White
1B Don Mattingly
2B Ross Barnes
SS Bill Dahlen
3B Stan Hack
RF Tony Oliva
CF Pete Browning
LF Bobby Veach
SP Bert Blyleven
RP Goose Gossage

**DoubleX** · 08-08-2005, 04:30 PM

Can't believe I forgot Dick Allen (someone I've been voting for the BBF Hall for several months). Make him my choice at first base.

**csh19792001** · 08-09-2005, 12:20 AM

Dahlen may have been more valuable than Trammell- of course, Trammell gets all the press because everyone knows who he is and remembers seeing him play.

Dahlen has no press agent (yet), although he's probably better a few dozen guys in the HOF.

Win Shares:
Alan Trammell- 318
Bill Dahlen- 394

(Bill Dahlen may have the most Win Shares of anyone eligible, yet not yet inducted into the Hall of Fame)

WARP1
Trammell- 171.0
Dahlen-101.3

WARP3 (adjusted for league strength)
Trammell- 117.8
Dahlen- 120.9

Even with a tremendous cut into Dahlen's numbers due to a steep timeline approximation, he still comes out looking slightly better than Trammell.

**leecemark** · 08-09-2005, 05:52 AM

--Somthing looks very odd about those WARP numbers. Not adjusted for leaue strength Trammell has a huge lead, but adjusted Dahlen passes him? Does anybody really believe Dahlen was playing in a tougher league than Trammell, much less a MUCH tougher league? If you reversed those numbers they might make sense to me.

**Brad Harris** · 08-09-2005, 07:11 AM

C - Simmons, Freehan
1B - Allen, Clark
2B - Grich, Gordon
3B - Santo, Boyer
SS - Trammell, Dahlen
LF - Minoso, Magee
CF - Murphy, Wynn
RF - Dawson, Parker
SP - Blyleven, Ferrell
RP - Gossage, Quisenberry

**RuthMayBond** · 08-09-2005, 07:45 AM

SP-Blyleven, maybe Jim McCormick
RP-Gossage/Quiz
C-Simmons or Torre
1B-Dick Allen (unless you can squeeze him into 3B), WClark
2B-Grich hands down unless you count Gordon's war time
3B-probably can't count DAllen, so Santo
SS-Trammell/Dahlen
LF-Mule Suttles, or Tim Raines
CF-I don't think Christobel Torriente is in the Hall; realistically, more like Jim Wynn
RF-Dwight Evans/Reggie Smith

**Ubiquitous** · 08-09-2005, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by leecemark

--Somthing looks very odd about those WARP numbers. Not adjusted for leaue strength Trammell has a huge lead, but adjusted Dahlen passes him? Does anybody really believe Dahlen was playing in a tougher league than Trammell, much less a MUCH tougher league? If you reversed those numbers they might make sense to me.

WARP-3 tries to adjust for the shortened seasons of the 19th century. Unfortunately BP doesn't do a great job on it.

Also without really knowing the formulas I think they don't do a great job factoring in league strength as well. In the 1890's you have a lot of guys with really high WARP's. Really really high when you realize that they are playing much shorter seasons a good chunk of the time. So on each team you often see a couple of players with really high WARPs and then a bunch of scrubs or really low numbers. I think that shows just how bad the quality of those leagues were and ho false the numbers they put up are.

**csh19792001** · 08-09-2005, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by leecemark

--Somthing looks very odd about those WARP numbers. Not adjusted for leaue strength Trammell has a huge lead, but adjusted Dahlen passes him? Does anybody really believe Dahlen was playing in a tougher league than Trammell, much less a MUCH tougher league? If you reversed those numbers they might make sense to me.

Yes- clerical error, Mark. That's correct.

**csh19792001** · 08-09-2005, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

WARP-3 tries to adjust for the shortened seasons of the 19th century. Unfortunately BP doesn't do a great job on it.

I addressed the error below.

But anyway, if you know of better career value metrics than Win Shares and WARP3, let us know which, and why they're better. I'm always amenable to new and better info.

Win Shares is probably the most cited, scrutined, and esteemed player value metric in the world- and Dahlen gets his due there.

**ElHalo** · 08-09-2005, 05:03 PM

Without looking at anyone else's list, so it's entirely possible I'm missing somebody... and leaving out 19th century guys, who could populate an entire HoF themselves:

C: Joe Torre / Wally Schang
1B: Hal Trosky
2B: Joe Gordon
SS: Vern Stephens
3B: Al Rosen
LF: Joe Jackson (oh, wait, you said eligible guys...)
CF: Dale Murphy
RF: Tony Olivo

SP: Jack Pfiester

**RuthMayBond** · 08-09-2005, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by ElHalo

Without looking at anyone else's list, so it's entirely possible I'm missing somebody... and leaving out 19th century guys, who could populate an entire HoF themselves:

SP: Jack Pfiester

I know Bert Blyleven, and he ain't no Jack Pfiester

Jack did have three good years . . .
. . . if you count the 100-inning one

**Ubiquitous** · 08-09-2005, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by csh19792001

I addressed the error below.

But anyway, if you know of better career value metrics than Win Shares and WARP3, let us know which, and why they're better. I'm always amenable to new and better info.

Win Shares is probably the most cited, scrutined, and esteemed player value metric in the world- and Dahlen gets his due there.

Yes I know you had the number flipped but I recognized that and wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the problem that BP itself has recognized occurs when dealing with shortened seasons.

Personally I think any attempt to put 19th century performance on scale with the 20th century is going to be inaccurate. There is an assumption that 19th century ball is on the same level as 20th century ball and that is just not true.

**jalbright** · 08-10-2005, 08:46 AM

C---Louis Santop, Ted Simmons
1B--Sadaharu Oh, Dick Allen
2B--Joe Gordon
3B--Jud Wilson, Ron Santo
SS--Bill Dahlen, Vern Stephens
OF--Cristobal Torriente, Paul Hines, Minnie Minoso
Isao Harimoto, Harry Stovey, Andre Dawson
Sherry Magee
SP--Ray Brown, Bert Blyleven
Masaichi Kaneda, Carl Mays
Victor Starffin, Bucky Walters
Kazuhisa Inao, Wilbur Cooper
RP--Goose Gossage

The first name is my first choice, but if he's in green print, he's from the 19th century, if in blue, the Negro Leagues, and red, Japan. The name next to any 19th century guy is a 20th century player from the majors, and the name next to Japanese or Negro Leaguers is a major leaguer. If the second choice to a Japanese or a Negro Leaguer is from the 19th century, then I give a third choice from the 20th century major leagues

Jim Albright

**RuthMayBond** · 08-10-2005, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by jalbright

C---Louis Santop, Ted Simmons
1B--Sadaharu Oh, Dick Allen
2B--Joe Gordon
3B--Jud Wilson, Ron Santo
SS--Bill Dahlen, Vern Stephens
OF--Cristobal Torriente, Paul Hines, Minnie Minoso
Isao Harimoto, Harry Stovey, Andre Dawson
Sherry Magee
SP--Ray Brown, Bert Blyleven
Masaichi Kaneda, Carl Mays
Victor Starffin, Bucky Walters
Kazuhisa Inao, Wilbur Cooper
RP--Goose Gossage

The first name is my first choice, but if he's in green print, he's from the 19th century, if in blue, the Negro Leagues, and red, Japan. The name next to any 19th century guy is a 20th century player from the majors, and the name next to Japanese or Negro Leaguers is a major leaguer. If the second choice to a Japanese or a Negro Leaguer is from the 19th century, then I give a third choice from the 20th century major leagues

Jim Albright

No Nagashima, Yamamoto, Ochiai, NOMURA?

**Brock20** · 08-10-2005, 12:01 PM

c: Simmons, Torre
1b: Hodges, Hernandez
2b: Gordon, Grich
3b: Santo, Boyer
ss: Marion, Stephens
of: Murphy, Rice, Dawson, Oliva, Minoso

sp: Blyleven, Kaat, Tiant, Morris

rp: Sutter, Gossage, Quiz

This list doesn't include 19th century guys, negro leaguers, or Japanese-- I simply don't know enough to make an informed decision re: those guys.

Of the above, I'd advocate election for Simmons, Hodges, Gordon, Santo, Minoso, Hawk, Blyleven, and Sutter.

I'm on the fence for Torre, Hernandez, Marion, Murphy, Rice, Kaat and Tiant.

Regarding Morris, Boyer, Stephens, Gossage and Quiz, -- I think they should remain on the outside looking in.

**RuthMayBond** · 08-10-2005, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Brock20

Of the above, I'd advocate election for Simmons, Hodges, Gordon, Santo, Minoso, Hawk, Blyleven, and Sutter.

Regarding Morris, Boyer, Stephens, Gossage and Quiz, -- I think they should remain on the outside looking in.

You want Sutter but not Quiz? Any special reason?

**dgarza** · 08-10-2005, 12:51 PM

C - Ted Simmons
1 - Dick Allen
2 - Larry Doyle
SS - Vern Stephens
3 - Deacon White
RF - Tony Oliva
CF - Pete Browning
LF - Harry Stovey
DH - Hal McRae
SRHP - Jim McCormick
SLHP - Billy Pierce
RHCL - Lee Smith
LHCL - Sparky Lyle

**jalbright** · 08-10-2005, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by RuthMayBond

No Nagashima, Yamamoto, Ochiai, NOMURA?

Ochiai wouldn't find a spot at first (Oh) or third (Nagashima)--so where would you play him--and don't say second base. If he really could have played the spot well, he'd have stayed there. Yamamoto, after the severe discounts in power one must make for Japanese players, ranks more with Richie Ashburn, which is a step below the candidates I've nominated, IMO. Nomura would beat Simmons, but IMO he doesn't take Santop, so he isn't listed. Similarly, Nagashima can make a good case to fall in between Wilson and Santo. The idea of the thread was a single team, and my multiple listings were simply a way to give people a few different looks at my choices depending upon who is considered for the team. Certainly, I left out Pete Rose, Roberto Alomar and Rickey Henderson, not to mention possibilities like Clemens or Maddux or Randy Johnson. But I didn't think those choices were intended by the question, so they were omitted without further ado.

Jim Albright

**yest** · 08-10-2005, 07:20 PM

dgarza
Deacon White was a much better catcher then third baseman and probobly would have played more games at catcher if there would have been longer seasons in his early years