Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.
On the issue of who's #1, it helps me to pose the question: If the HOF said, "we're electing one more player before we close the doors forever", who would I pick? I keep coming back to Tim Raines. He's in the mix with Dahlen and Blyleven, as well as Santo.
You know what would be interesting? If we picked the worst team possible made from Cooperstowners and have them compete as the 10th team. I wonder how well they'd do? I bet it wouldn't be a cake-walk for them.
1) The Hall of Fame rosters who will make up 2 teams in our league as a point of reference.
2) Should we expand to 10 drafted teams to include JW and Classic?
3) How to handle Negro Leaguers for the sim? I think I'd like to piggy back on Jim's thread for best Negro Leguers not in the Hall. We'd need to come up with reasonable MLB comps for them.
4) Draft order. I'll do a random draw, but first we need to settle question #2.
5) Should we freeze the clock during the middle of the night? I'm thinking nobody's clock should expire between midnight and 8AM EST, although it would be running (i.e. if you went on the clock late one evening you'd have until 8AM EST the next morning to pick - even if that meant 12 or more hours from the start of your clock.
--Your input on each of these questions is appreciated. I'd like to have these questioned resolved by Monday though, so please get your opinion in soon.
--I used the lists of Hall of Famers not selected for the BBFHoF and/or the Hall of Merit to come up with some preliminary rosters. I did not use Negro Leaguers, although Judy Johnson is IMO the least deserving 3B and possibly the least deserving player in Cooperstown. Some NeL pitchers probably belong here too. They can be added if they have "support" here and we can come up with decent MLEs/comps.
--Please remember that we are looking for the weakest Hall of Fame lineups and rotations. The bench and bullpen will have the better players in this inverted quality roster. With that in mind please offer up your suggestions for editting these rosters.
Maple Valley Cronies
C: Rick Ferrell
1B: George Kelly
2B: Tony Lazzeri
3B: Freddie Lindstrom
SS: Dave Bancroft
LF: Chick Hafey
CF: Lloyd Waner
RF: Ross Youngs
SP: Jesse Haines, Rube Marquard, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock
C: Ernie Lombardi
IF: Travis Jackson, Red Schoendienst
OF: Henie Manush, Kiki Cuyler
Utl/PH: Jake Beckley
RP: Dizzy Dean, Lefty Gomez, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber
Whig Corners Good Ole Boys
C: Ray Schalk
1B: Jim Bottomley
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: George Kell
SS: Joe Tinker
LF: Lou Brock
CF: Earl Combs
RF: Tommy McCarthy
SP: Chief Bender, Jack Chesbro, Jim Hunter, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis
C: Roger Bresnahan
IF: Johnny Evers, Luis Aparicio
OF: Harry Hooper, Sam Rice
Utl/PH: Tony Perez
RP: Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers, Addie Joss, Jim Bunning, Don Drysdale, Eppa Rixey
--There were not enough pitchers to fill the rosters out without some legit Hall of Famers. A few of the bench guys are also legit, although none of the players on either roster is likley to be the best (or close to the best?) at their position in this league.
If you wanted to be even fairer, make the four hours from 2 am to 6 am EST "stop time"; that is, if you're on the clock in that time frame it doesn't count against your 12-hour time frame.
We would hope and expect that voters would make their choice as soon as they discovered they were on the clock, that they would anticipate this several picks ahead of time, and that they would make their draft choice in a matter of minutes rather then milking the clock.
Two complete teams plus nine pitchers, 9:2 ratio of pitchers to any fielding position --that is still greater than the HOF ratio, right?
If you start at the top of the HOF and fill teams with this shape, how far down will you be at other positions when you have used up all of the HOF pitchers?
--Perhaps the town was originally centered around a "recreational facility"
Exanding our scope to 250 candidates is doable. That's about the number we're starting with in the Ultimate Quest project. That's also a similar scope to what we dealt with in the 500 Player Pyramid project. And in the NBJHBA, James' listings of the top 100 at each position goes well beyond this scope.
I have another question. How do we consider a guy like Joe Torre. I assume as a catcher, but can we assume that he could have produced his 1971 season as a catcher? This might be a better question for the simulation.
EDIT: Another question - will we be flipping the draft order each round, so that the person that picks last in the first round picks first in the second round?
Last edited by DoubleX; 02-14-2008 at 10:54 AM.
2) It was said the simulation is based on player's prime years. So Torre's C and 3B years will be lumped together; I assume he'll be able to change positions at will, with his fielding at C being much better than at 3B. The question is, does catching affect your durability? Would you be better off getting another decent C to platoon with Torre, playing him at 3B or 1B some of the time?
3) To the Edit question, yes, it's been said that the draft order will flip each round.
--Two points though; 1) The Hall of Fame is basically a lifetime achievemnt All Star selection. All Star teams are also set up in (expanded) working roster style. 2) The bottom half of our selections are pretty much just for fun and are more a requirement to conduct the sim than to get the absolute . If I were doing this soley to identify the best possible candiates I'd just go with a starting lineup, maybe 2 SP and one reliever per team. Anything past that and we are getting into very marginal candidates.
I have a thought: if the plan was for ten teams, and Classic and I can participate... one of us can draft and the other pick out the HOF team for himself. This way we'll have one team for reference and can do away with some of the stronger bench / relief players.
I'd rather draft but I can do the Maple Valley Cronies (Actually if we combine the two, "Whig Corners Cronies" is a great name)
If we do 12 teams, here are some thoughts:
That's a strong OF when you think about it. Every one of them hit over .315 for their career, and Waner's empty batting average is tempered by his defense. The IF is nice and shaky, though Lazzeri scored very well with Bill James in his rankings. The pitching rotation looks great -- Dean, Gomez and Coveleski can be trouble out of the pen though.
That is a much worse OF than Maple Valley even though Brock can lead off and Combs is a peak-type player. The IF will have a very strong defense. Bender, Chesbro and Hunter may benefit from their low career WHIPS combined with the gloves... ERA+ be darned. The Bullpen also is lights-out with Fingers and Sutter (two of the best relievers of all time) and Joss (a career WHIP of 0.968).
True, many of these players' career numbers are skewed from the environment they played in. I'd still predict both of these teams to finish over .500. On the other hand, if we combined the worst of these two teams, I think they'd finish near or at the bottom of the league.
Last edited by J W; 02-14-2008 at 12:18 PM.