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Thread: Suburbs of Cooperstown Discussion Thread

  1. #61
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    I'm spinning off a project in the Negro League forum:

    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    I've started a thread which is an outgrowth of the Suburbs of Cooperstown project in the Negro League forum. I'm asking folks to name their all-time blackball team of guys who are not in Cooperstown. I invite you to participate if you are interested. The thread is here, and has some resources to help you if you want to use them: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=73660
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    OK then, thanks.

    Judging by our history at the site, I'd think the first overall pick would be a slam-dunk. We'll wait and see though.
    Really? There are a few guys I could see going 1st, I don't see a clear cut candidate, unless I'm forgetting someone. I think there's probably a consensus here that Ron Santo is the best player outside the Hall, but I don't think he'd be the best value with the 1st pick. 3B is fairly deep with quality players outside the Hall, IMO. Then again, maybe I shouldn't be talking about these kind of things before the draft.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    Really? There are a few guys I could see going 1st, I don't see a clear cut candidate, unless I'm forgetting someone. I think there's probably a consensus here that Ron Santo is the best player outside the Hall, but I don't think he'd be the best value with the 1st pick. 3B is fairly deep with quality players outside the Hall, IMO. Then again, maybe I shouldn't be talking about these kind of things before the draft.
    Yes, positional scarcity inevitably must be considered in this type of draft.

    On the issue of who's #1, it helps me to pose the question: If the HOF said, "we're electing one more player before we close the doors forever", who would I pick? I keep coming back to Tim Raines. He's in the mix with Dahlen and Blyleven, as well as Santo.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  4. #64
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    You know what would be interesting? If we picked the worst team possible made from Cooperstowners and have them compete as the 10th team. I wonder how well they'd do? I bet it wouldn't be a cake-walk for them.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    You know what would be interesting? If we picked the worst team possible made from Cooperstowners and have them compete as the 10th team. I wonder how well they'd do? I bet it wouldn't be a cake-walk for them.
    I kind of like that idea.

    So when does the drafting start?
    "It's good to be young and a Giant." - Larry Doyle

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    You know what would be interesting? If we picked the worst team possible made from Cooperstowners and have them compete as the 10th team. I wonder how well they'd do? I bet it wouldn't be a cake-walk for them.
    --Actually the plan was to make 2 teams from the least qualified Hall of Famers to get us to 10 teams. Also, sorry I never directly responded to your inquiry, but we had planned on 8 teams and had those spots filled before you expressed interest. As it stands now you are on standby. Classic has also expressed interest so we could expand to 10 owners/250 players if that is alright with everyone? I think we can come up with that many guys at least worth talking about, although even at 200 there will be quite a few draftees who don't merit serious consideration.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickazoola View Post
    I kind of like that idea.

    So when does the drafting start?
    --The 21st. We have one participant who is away from home til the 20th. A couple issues to decide before then.
    1) The Hall of Fame rosters who will make up 2 teams in our league as a point of reference.
    2) Should we expand to 10 drafted teams to include JW and Classic?
    3) How to handle Negro Leaguers for the sim? I think I'd like to piggy back on Jim's thread for best Negro Leguers not in the Hall. We'd need to come up with reasonable MLB comps for them.
    4) Draft order. I'll do a random draw, but first we need to settle question #2.
    5) Should we freeze the clock during the middle of the night? I'm thinking nobody's clock should expire between midnight and 8AM EST, although it would be running (i.e. if you went on the clock late one evening you'd have until 8AM EST the next morning to pick - even if that meant 12 or more hours from the start of your clock.
    --Your input on each of these questions is appreciated. I'd like to have these questioned resolved by Monday though, so please get your opinion in soon.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    If we're picking team locations and names, I'll take the Fly Creek Appleseeds.

    --I'll be the Cat Town Grays

  9. #69
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    Suggested Hall of Fame rosters

    --I used the lists of Hall of Famers not selected for the BBFHoF and/or the Hall of Merit to come up with some preliminary rosters. I did not use Negro Leaguers, although Judy Johnson is IMO the least deserving 3B and possibly the least deserving player in Cooperstown. Some NeL pitchers probably belong here too. They can be added if they have "support" here and we can come up with decent MLEs/comps.
    --Please remember that we are looking for the weakest Hall of Fame lineups and rotations. The bench and bullpen will have the better players in this inverted quality roster. With that in mind please offer up your suggestions for editting these rosters.

    Maple Valley Cronies
    C: Rick Ferrell
    1B: George Kelly
    2B: Tony Lazzeri
    3B: Freddie Lindstrom
    SS: Dave Bancroft
    LF: Chick Hafey
    CF: Lloyd Waner
    RF: Ross Youngs
    SP: Jesse Haines, Rube Marquard, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock
    C: Ernie Lombardi
    IF: Travis Jackson, Red Schoendienst
    OF: Henie Manush, Kiki Cuyler
    Utl/PH: Jake Beckley
    RP: Dizzy Dean, Lefty Gomez, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber

    Whig Corners Good Ole Boys
    C: Ray Schalk
    1B: Jim Bottomley
    2B: Bill Mazeroski
    3B: George Kell
    SS: Joe Tinker
    LF: Lou Brock
    CF: Earl Combs
    RF: Tommy McCarthy
    SP: Chief Bender, Jack Chesbro, Jim Hunter, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis
    C: Roger Bresnahan
    IF: Johnny Evers, Luis Aparicio
    OF: Harry Hooper, Sam Rice
    Utl/PH: Tony Perez
    RP: Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers, Addie Joss, Jim Bunning, Don Drysdale, Eppa Rixey

    --There were not enough pitchers to fill the rosters out without some legit Hall of Famers. A few of the bench guys are also legit, although none of the players on either roster is likley to be the best (or close to the best?) at their position in this league.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --I'll be the Cat Town Grays
    Cattown is one word. Must be a story there.
    Last edited by Freakshow; 02-14-2008 at 11:30 AM. Reason: map link
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    5) Should we freeze the clock during the middle of the night? I'm thinking nobody's clock should expire between midnight and 8AM EST, although it would be running (i.e. if you went on the clock late one evening you'd have until 8AM EST the next morning to pick - even if that meant 12 or more hours from the start of your clock.
    --Your input on each of these questions is appreciated. I'd like to have these questioned resolved by Monday though, so please get your opinion in soon.
    I think the simplest and fairest way is to use a 12-hour clock, no freezes. That way it's always simple to track the expiration time. Also, if someone only has internet at work (or only at home), they have a better chance of being there for their pick.

    If you wanted to be even fairer, make the four hours from 2 am to 6 am EST "stop time"; that is, if you're on the clock in that time frame it doesn't count against your 12-hour time frame.

    We would hope and expect that voters would make their choice as soon as they discovered they were on the clock, that they would anticipate this several picks ahead of time, and that they would make their draft choice in a matter of minutes rather then milking the clock.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    There were not enough pitchers to fill the rosters out without some legit Hall of Famers. A few of the bench guys are also legit, although none of the players on either roster is likley to be the best (or close to the best?) at their position in this league.
    It's a mind-boggling number of pitchers. Ratio to catchers is 11:2 and ratio is greater than that for the other seven fielding positions.
    Two complete teams plus nine pitchers, 9:2 ratio of pitchers to any fielding position --that is still greater than the HOF ratio, right?

    If you start at the top of the HOF and fill teams with this shape, how far down will you be at other positions when you have used up all of the HOF pitchers?

  13. #73
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    --Perhaps the town was originally centered around a "recreational facility"

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    2) Should we expand to 10 drafted teams to include JW and Classic?
    I say yes. These two members have long had a keen interest in this topic and would be excellent additions.

    Exanding our scope to 250 candidates is doable. That's about the number we're starting with in the Ultimate Quest project. That's also a similar scope to what we dealt with in the 500 Player Pyramid project. And in the NBJHBA, James' listings of the top 100 at each position goes well beyond this scope.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    Yes, positional scarcity inevitably must be considered in this type of draft.

    On the issue of who's #1, it helps me to pose the question: If the HOF said, "we're electing one more player before we close the doors forever", who would I pick? I keep coming back to Tim Raines. He's in the mix with Dahlen and Blyleven, as well as Santo.
    But that philosophy could cut against consideirng positional scarcity. To answer the question you posed, I'd probably put Santo in as that one guy, but I don't think I'd take Santo first in a draft like this when I don't feel there's a huge drop between him and a number of other guys. The other three guys you mentioned might be guys I'd consider with the first pick, and I'd toss Dick Allen in there as well.

    I have another question. How do we consider a guy like Joe Torre. I assume as a catcher, but can we assume that he could have produced his 1971 season as a catcher? This might be a better question for the simulation.

    EDIT: Another question - will we be flipping the draft order each round, so that the person that picks last in the first round picks first in the second round?
    Last edited by DoubleX; 02-14-2008 at 10:54 AM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    2) Should we expand to 10 drafted teams to include JW and Classic?
    No objections here, but with so many players being drafted I think we'll be going well beyond just the "suburbs" of Cooperstown. By the end, I don't think even think we'd still be in NY State .

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    But that philosophy could cut against consideirng positional scarcity. To answer the question you posed, I'd probably put Santo in as that one guy, but I don't think I'd take Santo first in a draft like this when I don't feel there's a huge drop between him and a number of other guys. The other three guys you mentioned might be guys I'd consider with the first pick, and I'd toss Dick Allen in there as well.

    I have another question. How do we consider a guy like Joe Torre. I assume as a catcher, but can we assume that he could have produced his 1971 season as a catcher? This might be a better question for the simulation.

    EDIT: Another question - will we be flipping the draft order each round, so that the person that picks last in the first round picks first in the second round?
    1) I probably should have separated those thoughts; the first sentence is only somewhat related to the rest.

    2) It was said the simulation is based on player's prime years. So Torre's C and 3B years will be lumped together; I assume he'll be able to change positions at will, with his fielding at C being much better than at 3B. The question is, does catching affect your durability? Would you be better off getting another decent C to platoon with Torre, playing him at 3B or 1B some of the time?

    3) To the Edit question, yes, it's been said that the draft order will flip each round.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    I'll join the club if there's still an opening. We'd be the Milford Musials (get it?).
    Milford map
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    It's a mind-boggling number of pitchers. Ratio to catchers is 11:2 and ratio is greater than that for the other seven fielding positions.
    Two complete teams plus nine pitchers, 9:2 ratio of pitchers to any fielding position --that is still greater than the HOF ratio, right?

    If you start at the top of the HOF and fill teams with this shape, how far down will you be at other positions when you have used up all of the HOF pitchers?
    --We will be selecting quite a few mor pitchers than merit serious Hal of Fame consideration and the ratio will be unusuallly high. There is really no way around that if we approach this with an idea of building a real team. Particularly if it is a team built with modern roster construction in mind. 15/10 or even an old school 16/9 would work, but that still leaves a very high ratio.
    --Two points though; 1) The Hall of Fame is basically a lifetime achievemnt All Star selection. All Star teams are also set up in (expanded) working roster style. 2) The bottom half of our selections are pretty much just for fun and are more a requirement to conduct the sim than to get the absolute . If I were doing this soley to identify the best possible candiates I'd just go with a starting lineup, maybe 2 SP and one reliever per team. Anything past that and we are getting into very marginal candidates.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post

    Maple Valley Cronies
    C: Rick Ferrell
    1B: George Kelly
    2B: Tony Lazzeri
    3B: Freddie Lindstrom
    SS: Dave Bancroft
    LF: Chick Hafey
    CF: Lloyd Waner
    RF: Ross Youngs
    SP: Jesse Haines, Rube Marquard, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock
    C: Ernie Lombardi
    IF: Travis Jackson, Red Schoendienst
    OF: Henie Manush, Kiki Cuyler
    Utl/PH: Jake Beckley
    RP: Dizzy Dean, Lefty Gomez, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber

    Whig Corners Good Ole Boys
    C: Ray Schalk
    1B: Jim Bottomley
    2B: Bill Mazeroski
    3B: George Kell
    SS: Joe Tinker
    LF: Lou Brock
    CF: Earl Combs
    RF: Tommy McCarthy
    SP: Chief Bender, Jack Chesbro, Jim Hunter, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis
    C: Roger Bresnahan
    IF: Johnny Evers, Luis Aparicio
    OF: Harry Hooper, Sam Rice
    Utl/PH: Tony Perez
    RP: Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers, Addie Joss, Jim Bunning, Don Drysdale, Eppa Rixey
    Hmmm....

    I have a thought: if the plan was for ten teams, and Classic and I can participate... one of us can draft and the other pick out the HOF team for himself. This way we'll have one team for reference and can do away with some of the stronger bench / relief players.

    I'd rather draft but I can do the Maple Valley Cronies (Actually if we combine the two, "Whig Corners Cronies" is a great name)

    If we do 12 teams, here are some thoughts:

    Maple Valley

    That's a strong OF when you think about it. Every one of them hit over .315 for their career, and Waner's empty batting average is tempered by his defense. The IF is nice and shaky, though Lazzeri scored very well with Bill James in his rankings. The pitching rotation looks great -- Dean, Gomez and Coveleski can be trouble out of the pen though.

    Whig Corners

    That is a much worse OF than Maple Valley even though Brock can lead off and Combs is a peak-type player. The IF will have a very strong defense. Bender, Chesbro and Hunter may benefit from their low career WHIPS combined with the gloves... ERA+ be darned. The Bullpen also is lights-out with Fingers and Sutter (two of the best relievers of all time) and Joss (a career WHIP of 0.968).

    True, many of these players' career numbers are skewed from the environment they played in. I'd still predict both of these teams to finish over .500. On the other hand, if we combined the worst of these two teams, I think they'd finish near or at the bottom of the league.
    Last edited by J W; 02-14-2008 at 12:18 PM.

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