Suburbs of Cooperstown Discussion Thread

[DoubleX]

2) Should we expand to 10 drafted teams to include JW and Classic?

No objections here, but with so many players being drafted I think we'll be going well beyond just the "suburbs" of Cooperstown. By the end, I don't think even think we'd still be in NY State .

[Freakshow]

But that philosophy could cut against consideirng positional scarcity. To answer the question you posed, I'd probably put Santo in as that one guy, but I don't think I'd take Santo first in a draft like this when I don't feel there's a huge drop between him and a number of other guys. The other three guys you mentioned might be guys I'd consider with the first pick, and I'd toss Dick Allen in there as well.

I have another question. How do we consider a guy like Joe Torre. I assume as a catcher, but can we assume that he could have produced his 1971 season as a catcher? This might be a better question for the simulation.

EDIT: Another question - will we be flipping the draft order each round, so that the person that picks last in the first round picks first in the second round?

1) I probably should have separated those thoughts; the first sentence is only somewhat related to the rest.

2) It was said the simulation is based on player's prime years. So Torre's C and 3B years will be lumped together; I assume he'll be able to change positions at will, with his fielding at C being much better than at 3B. The question is, does catching affect your durability? Would you be better off getting another decent C to platoon with Torre, playing him at 3B or 1B some of the time?

3) To the Edit question, yes, it's been said that the draft order will flip each round.

[Freakshow]

I'll join the club if there's still an opening. We'd be the Milford Musials (get it?).

Milford map

[leecemark]

It's a mind-boggling number of pitchers. Ratio to catchers is 11:2 and ratio is greater than that for the other seven fielding positions.
Two complete teams plus nine pitchers, 9:2 ratio of pitchers to any fielding position --that is still greater than the HOF ratio, right?

If you start at the top of the HOF and fill teams with this shape, how far down will you be at other positions when you have used up all of the HOF pitchers?

--We will be selecting quite a few mor pitchers than merit serious Hal of Fame consideration and the ratio will be unusuallly high. There is really no way around that if we approach this with an idea of building a real team. Particularly if it is a team built with modern roster construction in mind. 15/10 or even an old school 16/9 would work, but that still leaves a very high ratio.
--Two points though; 1) The Hall of Fame is basically a lifetime achievemnt All Star selection. All Star teams are also set up in (expanded) working roster style. 2) The bottom half of our selections are pretty much just for fun and are more a requirement to conduct the sim than to get the absolute . If I were doing this soley to identify the best possible candiates I'd just go with a starting lineup, maybe 2 SP and one reliever per team. Anything past that and we are getting into very marginal candidates.

[J W]

Maple Valley Cronies
C: Rick Ferrell
1B: George Kelly
2B: Tony Lazzeri
3B: Freddie Lindstrom
SS: Dave Bancroft
LF: Chick Hafey
CF: Lloyd Waner
RF: Ross Youngs
SP: Jesse Haines, Rube Marquard, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock
C: Ernie Lombardi
IF: Travis Jackson, Red Schoendienst
OF: Henie Manush, Kiki Cuyler
Utl/PH: Jake Beckley
RP: Dizzy Dean, Lefty Gomez, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber

Whig Corners Good Ole Boys
C: Ray Schalk
1B: Jim Bottomley
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: George Kell
SS: Joe Tinker
LF: Lou Brock
CF: Earl Combs
RF: Tommy McCarthy
SP: Chief Bender, Jack Chesbro, Jim Hunter, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis
C: Roger Bresnahan
IF: Johnny Evers, Luis Aparicio
OF: Harry Hooper, Sam Rice
Utl/PH: Tony Perez
RP: Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers, Addie Joss, Jim Bunning, Don Drysdale, Eppa Rixey

Hmmm....

I have a thought: if the plan was for ten teams, and Classic and I can participate... one of us can draft and the other pick out the HOF team for himself. This way we'll have one team for reference and can do away with some of the stronger bench / relief players.

I'd rather draft but I can do the Maple Valley Cronies (Actually if we combine the two, "Whig Corners Cronies" is a great name)

If we do 12 teams, here are some thoughts:

Maple Valley

That's a strong OF when you think about it. Every one of them hit over .315 for their career, and Waner's empty batting average is tempered by his defense. The IF is nice and shaky, though Lazzeri scored very well with Bill James in his rankings. The pitching rotation looks great -- Dean, Gomez and Coveleski can be trouble out of the pen though.

Whig Corners

That is a much worse OF than Maple Valley even though Brock can lead off and Combs is a peak-type player. The IF will have a very strong defense. Bender, Chesbro and Hunter may benefit from their low career WHIPS combined with the gloves... ERA+ be darned. The Bullpen also is lights-out with Fingers and Sutter (two of the best relievers of all time) and Joss (a career WHIP of 0.968).

True, many of these players' career numbers are skewed from the environment they played in. I'd still predict both of these teams to finish over .500. On the other hand, if we combined the worst of these two teams, I think they'd finish near or at the bottom of the league.

[leecemark]

1) I probably should have separated those thoughts; the first sentence is only somewhat related to the rest.

2) It was said the simulation is based on player's prime years. So Torre's C and 3B years will be lumped together; I assume he'll be able to change positions at will, with his fielding at C being much better than at 3B. The question is, does catching affect your durability? Would you be better off getting another decent C to platoon with Torre, playing him at 3B or 1B some of the time?

3) To the Edit question, yes, it's been said that the draft order will flip each round.

--You could use Torre at C/3B/1B. Personally I think his case looks much better when considered against the pool of available catchers, but even if he'd been a career 3B he would probably be good enough to win a startign job in this league (i.e. one of the 8-10 best non-Hall of Famers at the position). As for the sim, catcher do have a fatigue factor built into the programing, unlike other players. Their preformance starts to decline after 100 defensive innings without a game off. That game off only has to be a game off from catching though, so you could use Torre some at 3B and use him everyday. 1B too, although he doesn't stack up as well against the 1B pool.

[leecemark]

Hmmm....

I have a thought: if the plan was for ten teams, and Classic and I can participate... one of us can draft and the other pick out the HOF team for himself. This way we'll have one team for reference and can do away with some of the stronger bench / relief players.

I'd rather draft but I can do the Maple Valley Cronies (Actually if we combine the two, "Whig Corners Cronies" is a great name)

If we do 12 teams, here are some thoughts:

Maple Valley

That's a strong OF when you think about it. Every one of them hit over .315 for their career, and Waner's empty batting average is tempered by his defense. The IF is nice and shaky, though Lazzeri scored very well with Bill James in his rankings. The pitching rotation looks great -- Dean, Gomez and Coveleski can be trouble out of the pen though.

Whig Corners

That is a much worse OF than Maple Valley even though Brock can lead off and Combs is a peak-type player. The IF will have a very strong defense. Bender, Chesbro and Hunter may benefit from their low career WHIPS combined with the gloves... ERA+ be darned. The Bullpen also is lights-out with Fingers and Sutter (two of the best relievers of all time) and Joss (a career WHIP of 0.968).

True, many of these players' career numbers are skewed from the environment they played in. I'd still predict the Cronies to be over .500 and the Good Ol' Boys to contend for the title.

--As much as we like to criticize some Hall of Fame selections nobody in Cooperstown wasn't a good player. A team of the best outside would be clearly superior to the worst inside, but dividing up the best outsiders 8 or 10 (and I think it will be 10) ways that won't be so clear. I think the Cooperstown teams would have a decent shot at the pennant.

[J W]

OK; thankfully the better players are on the bench. The bullpens are going to be the strongest part of those teams I think -- maybe we can set "use relievers" to less...

If Harry Hooper or Tommy McCarthy has a LF rating I'd start that player over Brock. Other than that, I can't argue much with the teams.

[Freakshow]

Maple Valley map

Whig Corners map

[Freakshow]

If we're picking team locations and names, I'll take the Fly Creek Appleseeds.

Shouldn't they be the Swatters?

Fly Creek map

[jjpm74]

Shouldn't they be the Swatters?

Fly Creek map

Fly Creek is known for its hard cider. My alternate would be the Sharon Springs Gilded Ghosts.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I'm really glad J W and Classic will be included in this. Looking forward to how this turns out.

[Freakshow]

Maple Valley Cronies
C: Rick Ferrell
1B: George Kelly
2B: Tony Lazzeri
3B: Freddie Lindstrom
SS: Dave Bancroft
LF: Chick Hafey
CF: Lloyd Waner
RF: Ross Youngs
SP: Jesse Haines, Rube Marquard, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock
C: Ernie Lombardi
IF: Travis Jackson, Red Schoendienst
OF: Henie Manush, Kiki Cuyler
Utl/PH: Jake Beckley
RP: Dizzy Dean, Lefty Gomez, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber

Whig Corners Good Ole Boys
C: Ray Schalk
1B: Jim Bottomley
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: George Kell
SS: Joe Tinker
LF: Lou Brock
CF: Earl Combs
RF: Tommy McCarthy
SP: Chief Bender, Jack Chesbro, Jim Hunter, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis
C: Roger Bresnahan
IF: Johnny Evers, Luis Aparicio
OF: Harry Hooper, Sam Rice
Utl/PH: Tony Perez
RP: Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers, Addie Joss, Jim Bunning, Don Drysdale, Eppa Rixey

--There were not enough pitchers to fill the rosters out without some legit Hall of Famers. A few of the bench guys are also legit, although none of the players on either roster is likley to be the best (or close to the best?) at their position in this league.

The final election in the Hall of Mistakes may be informative.

From that, the Maple Valley team looks weaker, with 10 of the first 12 mistakes on their roster. Of course, the Hall of Mistakes may have made mistakes!

Others recommended by that project are Judy Johnson (#18), Phil Rizzuto (#27) and Andy Cooper (#29). Others I had on my final ballot were Leon Day, Hack Wilson, Rabbit Maranville, Frank Chance, Hilton Smith and Ray Dandridge.

[jalbright]

--The 21st. We have one participant who is away from home til the 20th. A couple issues to decide before then.
1) The Hall of Fame rosters who will make up 2 teams in our league as a point of reference.
2) Should we expand to 10 drafted teams to include JW and Classic?
3) How to handle Negro Leaguers for the sim? I think I'd like to piggy back on Jim's thread for best Negro Leguers not in the Hall. We'd need to come up with reasonable MLB comps for them.
4) Draft order. I'll do a random draw, but first we need to settle question #2.
5) Should we freeze the clock during the middle of the night? I'm thinking nobody's clock should expire between midnight and 8AM EST, although it would be running (i.e. if you went on the clock late one evening you'd have until 8AM EST the next morning to pick - even if that meant 12 or more hours from the start of your clock.
--Your input on each of these questions is appreciated. I'd like to have these questioned resolved by Monday though, so please get your opinion in soon.

How does one get on the clock? I have to get my son up and out the door by 7 am, so I am a) early to bed (often 9 or 9:30 ET, as my 4:45 alarm comes far too quickly), and b) not at all sure to get on the computer until 4 pm the next day. I do not have regular access to BBF (often not even the internet) during my work day. I might be able to give a several person list if necessary, but then the question of who holds my draft plans is at least something to consider. I mean, Mark and others are good guys, but if the one in the know and I are looking at the same guy and he knows I won't let him slide much longer . . . . how can he ignore such inside info?

On another point, I'm all for adding the two you've mentioned.

[Paul Wendt]

As I've said, I don't plan to use any simulation criteria myself, but for tactical purposes I wonder what they may be.

In particular, can Joe Torre, Dick Allen, or Tony Perez play every inning at 3B? The "prime seasons" cited as basis for DMB player simulation extend far beyond their careers at 3B. If they are limited in play at 3B, what about Tommy Leach or Darrell Evans, who did have a prime-length career at the position but played a long time with many seasons at a second position too? Can they play every inning at 3B?

--
Joe Torre barely played 3B between his C and 1B careers. Maybe I exaggerate there but it is only 23% of his career including only two full seasons.

even if [Torre] had been a career 3B he would probably be good enough to win a starting job in this league (i.e. one of the 8-10 best non-Hall of Famers at the position).
As a historian rather than simulator, it seems to me that 3B has more deserving and borderline players than any other. Here are a dozen in chronological order:
Sutton, Nash, Cross, Leach, Groh, Hack, Elliott, Boyer, Santo, Nettles, Evans, Bell

Joe Torre as a career 3Bman would have a career "worse" than the real Joe Torre. I don't see that he would be greater than any of those players. Here I am passing by Robin Ventura, Matt Williams, and anyone else who is very recent; and passing by Pete Rose, Dick Allen, and anyone else who played more elsewhere, even if he played more 3B than Torre did.

[leecemark]

--Paul, I agree Torre would be wasted at 3B. He hits well enough to be a first teamer, but his defense would be less than optimal. H e is a much better fit at C.
--Allen and Perez is another story. They did play more 1B than 3B, but many of their best years came as thirdbasemen. They are not good defenders at 3B, but you may want to live with below average defense to get an extra bat in. Allen is arguably the best candidate at either first or third.
--Evans and/or Leach can play regularly at third. Playing time would not be pro-rated by percent of real life playing time. Either of those 2 would be a good candidate to start at 3B, but probably not at their 2nd positions of 1B/CF.

[Chickazoola]

I like the 12 hour clock with a reverse snake format.

I want my team to be the Patent Leather Pants.

I would also be ok with 10 teams. But I am concerned about the amount of pitching spots. I think it should be between 7-8, rather than 9-11. I just don't think there is enough depth.

[Paul Wendt]

So in keeping with the rules, a team may have Dick Allen and Pedro Guerrero and no primary thirdbaseman?
Or even Allen and no one else on the roster who ever played thirdbase? (eg, two pure SS and two pure 2B to fill the infield slots; no C, 1B, or OF with time at 3B)

If the answer is no, Allen may not be the only person on the roster with 3B experience. May he be the one listed as starting 3B? You mentioned special interest in the starting teams, who compose the roughly ten best players outside the Hall of Fame at every fielding position

[Paul Wendt]

I see from these team names that you are all much too smart for me.

[J W]

Since we're going off of Diamond Mind, Allen will likely have a 3B rating same as Torre. I can tell you Allen will be a below-average to putrid defensive 3Bman based on our Classic Keeper League, which is near the end of the 1960s at the moment. Torre will probably be average to below-average... but that won't matter, his most valuable position will be catcher I'm sure.

No player is set at any one position in Diamond Mind. You can even play people is places where they have no defensive rating whatsoever... but you do so at your own risk. (Frank Howard at second base? )

[J W]

As a historian rather than simulator, it seems to me that 3B has more deserving and borderline players than any other. Here are a dozen in chronological order:
Sutton, Nash, Cross, Leach, Groh, Hack, Elliott, Boyer, Santo, Nettles, Evans, Bell

I've been saying this for years. Third base is the scarcest position in the HOF. I think too much expectation is put on the position... people expect them to hit like first basemen and field the hot corner all the same. As we see from hitters like Allen and Perez, many times you can't have both.

So, I completely agree Paul.

[J W]

I like the 12 hour clock with a reverse snake format.

I want my team to be the Patent Leather Pants.

I would also be ok with 10 teams. But I am concerned about the amount of pitching spots. I think it should be between 7-8, rather than 9-11. I just don't think there is enough depth.

12 hour, reverse snake is fine for a one-time draft I think.

There will be enough depth for pitching... but seriously, this is where the Cooperstowners could run all over us. Especially in the pen. But our goal is to see how many of us can beat the Cronies and Good Ol' Boys, right? That's my goal anyways. (edit - I see the main goal is to identify the players... but I'm more interested in seeing how many teams finish ahead of the Cooperstowners than who precisely wins the league)

Which is why I suggest we mandate three relievers:

- Lefty
- Righty
- Closer (L/R)

...that will keep with the program setup. Even though it may end up better to plug starters in your relief roles, I say this is the way to go. We'd pretty much have the pick of the litter too, with only five relievers in the HOF. I think we can come up with 30 names beyond Eck, Fingers, Gossage, Sutter, and Wilhelm.

And that's 30 less starting pitchers that need drafting. I suggest eight starting pitchers per team for a total of 11. That should carry through one season with no problem. It's also the same number that is on the Cronies & GOBs.

Say Mark, is Cooperstown / Elysian Field doable? 100 park factor across the board? Would we need to make one for every team?

[J W]

The moniker, “Suburbs of Cooperstown” is great. Taking that a step further, you might consider naming the eight franchises after some of Cooperstown’s actual neighbors. These are the nearest towns I found in the vicinity, Cooperstown’s “suburbs”:

Taking a quick look at Google Earth I found some additional names. I'll put them in alphabetical order and name the ones that are taken:

Bowerstown
Brighton
Cattown - Grays
Chase
Cherry Valley
Clintonville
Deowongo Island
Elk Creek
Field Crossing
Five Points
Fly Creek - Appleseeds
Hartwick
Hyde Park
Index
Lentsville
Lidell Corners
Maple Valley - Cronies
Middlefield
Milford
Oaksville
Pail Shop Corners
Patent - Leather Pants
Phoenix Mills
Pierstown
Richfield Springs
Roseboom
Schuyler Lake
Scotch Hill - Tumblers
Snowdon
Springfield Center
Sunken Island - Treasure
Taylortown
Toddsville
Westford
Westville
Whig Corners - Good Old Boys
Wileytown

Also note we changed our name to the Sunken Island Treasure. It fits so well

[jalbright]

12 hour, reverse snake is fine for a one-time draft I think.

There will be enough depth for pitching... but seriously, this is where the Cooperstowners could run all over us. Especially in the pen. But our goal is to see how many of us can beat the Cronies and Good Ol' Boys, right? That's my goal anyways. (edit - I see the main goal is to identify the players... but I'm more interested in seeing how many teams finish ahead of the Cooperstowners than who precisely wins the league)

Which is why I suggest we mandate three relievers:

- Lefty
- Righty
- Closer (L/R)

...that will keep with the program setup. Even though it may end up better to plug starters in your relief roles, I say this is the way to go. We'd pretty much have the pick of the litter too, with only five relievers in the HOF. I think we can come up with 30 names beyond Eck, Fingers, Gossage, Sutter, and Wilhelm.

And that's 30 less starting pitchers that need drafting. I suggest eight starting pitchers per team for a total of 11. That should carry through one season with no problem. It's also the same number that is on the Cronies & GOBs.

Say Mark, is Cooperstown / Elysian Field doable? 100 park factor across the board? Would we need to make one for every team?

I don't like having a mandate to come up with 30 relievers. That goes way too deep IMO. Ten guys who finished games, absolutely. I'd also like the flexibility to go with as few as 9 pitchers if we choose. If we go to 11, in this setup we'll be picking guys who aren't likely to play unless a team has a rash of pitching injuries.

[Brad Harris]

The Scotch Hill Tumblers for me, please.