Why is Morgan Ensberg wearing Paul O'Neill's number

[Mattingly85MVP]

Forgive me if this has been answered in a previous thread but WHY have the Yankees reissued Paul O'Neill's #21 to Morgan Ensberg of all people...this better be because they ran out of numbers 60-99 to give out. I only ask because O'Neill is one of my favorite players of all time and figured they would retire his number when they move to the new stadium, and the fact that they haven't used the number since he retired.
Thanks

[Mattingly]

I figure it's just ST, but it does seem strange.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/team/...ayer_id=348563

He's been given that #21 alright, a number which Roger Clemens wouldn't have dared to wear in 1999, since he wasn't exactly Mr Popularity in the Bronx that season, per all the Yankee batters he'd hit as a Red Sox pitcher.

Players have often changed numbers from their rook season (I think that Mantle wore #6), so this may just be for spring. If he makes the team and still wears #21, then I think it becomes an issue.

[Mattingly85MVP]

I hope its only for spring training, but why would they even do it, its not like they're using #51 or #6 which will also be retired.

[Evangelion]

Because O'Neill's number not retired. The team hasn't took off the books unofficially either it seems since Ensberg is wearing the number. That's why he's wearing it.

[Mariano_Rivera]

O`Neill's been retired for 6 years. They haven't used bhis number since. He doesn't deserve a retired number (if they retired every player of his caliber they had they wouldn't have any left). I think they`ve waited long enough)

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

O`Neill's been retired for 6 years. They haven't used bhis number since. He doesn't deserve a retired number (if they retired every player of his caliber they had they wouldn't have any left). I think they`ve waited long enough)

Indeed. The way the Yankees have retired numbers, it is almost meaningless to me.

I highly doubt the necessity of the retirement of the numbers of Martin, Mattingly and Jackson.

[Mattingly85MVP]

Include Guidry with that group too, but leave Donnie out of that discussion...
It shouldn't have taken this long to reissue 21 if the Yankees had no intention of retiring it. They made you think that they were waiting for the new stadium to open and have a Paul O'Neill day, at least that's what my friends and I thought.

[DoubleX]

Indeed. The way the Yankees have retired numbers, it is almost meaningless to me.

I highly doubt the necessity of the retirement of the numbers of Martin, Mattingly and Jackson.

I agree, the Yankees have gone too far with retiring numbers already. I definitely would not have reteired Maris, Jackson, and Guidry's numbers, and I'm not sold on Martin, Rizzuto, Munson, and Howard's numbers being retired. If you're going to retire these guys why not Tony Lazzeri, Earle Combs, Lefty Gomez, Allie Reynolds, Willie Randolph, Dave Winfield, Tommy Henrich, and so on?

I do wonder though how many players of the most recent dynasty will have their numbers retired. You have to figure it will be at least Torre, Jeter, and Rivera. Posada and Bernie could justifiably be retired, perhaps Pettitte as well. I also have a feeling the team would have retired Clemens' number if not for recent events. A-Rod could also end up with his number retired - who knows, in 10 years if the Yankees win a WS or two and A-Rod sets some records in a Yankees uniform, you have to think they'll retire his number.

[Mattingly85MVP]

It really should only be 3,4,5,7,8,16 and eventually 2 and 42

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

I agree, the Yankees have gone too far with retiring numbers already. I definitely would not have reteired Maris, Jackson, and Guidry's numbers, and I'm not sold on Martin, Rizzuto, Munson, and Howard's numbers being retired. If you're going to retire these guys why not Tony Lazzeri, Earle Combs, Lefty Gomez, Allie Reynolds, Willie Randolph, Dave Winfield, Tommy Henrich, and so on?

I do wonder though how many players of the most recent dynasty will have their numbers retired. You have to figure it will be at least Torre, Jeter, and Rivera. Posada and Bernie could justifiably be retired, perhaps Pettitte as well. I also have a feeling the team would have retired Clemens' number if not for recent events. A-Rod could also end up with his number retired - who knows, in 10 years if the Yankees win a WS or two and A-Rod sets some records in a Yankees uniform, you have to think they'll retire his number.

I can understand why Maris' number is retired. He achieved something under a great pressure of animosity among Yankee fans.

But Martin? Is it to clear Steinbrenner's consience? His relationship with Martin was so bad.

Munson? Only because of the tragic accident? How tragic it was, I think that it should not be a reason for retiring his number. Then we can retire Cory Lidle's number too.

I still do not understand why they retired Jackson's number. Even before he had played he caused some turmoil by declaring that "he was the straw that stirs the drink"... instead of Munson. He was one of the reasons for the bad atmosphere during the Bronx Zoo days.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Include Guidry with that group too, but leave Donnie out of that discussion...
It shouldn't have taken this long to reissue 21 if the Yankees had no intention of retiring it. They made you think that they were waiting for the new stadium to open and have a Paul O'Neill day, at least that's what my friends and I thought.

I don't understand why I should leave Mattingly out of the discussion . You did not mention his number either.

[Perseus71]

Yankeebiscuitfan -

I agree Mattingly's number is one of those numbers that should be in that discussion. Great player, but really, he falls short. He represents the best of that Yankee era (mid 80's - mid 90's), but does anyone really want to remember that time.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Yankeebiscuitfan -

I agree Mattingly's number is one of those numbers that should be in that discussion. Great player, but really, he falls short. He represents the best of that Yankee era (mid 80's - mid 90's), but does anyone really want to remember that time.

The lousy era should not be a reason for not retiring Mattingly's number. But like you said: "He falls short"." He was a fan favorite because he was one of the few home grown guys. But that does not make him worthy to retire his number.

[Mattingly85MVP]

I don't understand why I should leave Mattingly out of the discussion . You did not mention his number either.

Because Don Mattingly is my absolute favorite (look at my id name) so I'm a little biased towards him obviously. There is a reason why he gets the loudest ovation on old timers day. Ok, so he falls short of greatness, but come on, he was a great talent who's abilities were robbed by his back injury, and as I recall, the media always made comparisons to legendary Yankees during his first five years. Its a shame to think of what he could have been.
And I didn't mention his number before because those should be the only ones retired based on a stricter system of judging which should and shouldn't be, but personally I'm glad his is retired, he's part of that second tear of yankee greats like Munson, Maris, Howard and so on

[Silver Blaze]

I agree, the Yankees have gone too far with retiring numbers already. I definitely would not have reteired Maris, Jackson, and Guidry's numbers, and I'm not sold on Martin, Rizzuto, Munson, and Howard's numbers being retired. If you're going to retire these guys why not Tony Lazzeri, Earle Combs, Lefty Gomez, Allie Reynolds, Willie Randolph, Dave Winfield, Tommy Henrich, and so on?

I do wonder though how many players of the most recent dynasty will have their numbers retired. You have to figure it will be at least Torre, Jeter, and Rivera. Posada and Bernie could justifiably be retired, perhaps Pettitte as well. I also have a feeling the team would have retired Clemens' number if not for recent events. A-Rod could also end up with his number retired - who knows, in 10 years if the Yankees win a WS or two and A-Rod sets some records in a Yankees uniform, you have to think they'll retire his number.

There is no way that Pettitte is getting his number retired. Especially if Clemens isn't, and Pettitte has actually admitted using the HGH, but that's almost beside the point. Pettitte just hasn't been great enough. I also don't think Bernie should get his number retired. This argument is like the HOF - once you let in some guys with less than stellar numbers, why not break the floodgates with them?

[hellborn]

I'm always a little surprised by the love for O'Neill.
The guy did have some fine years for the Yanks, and I did like his intensity...but, he wasn't a Yankee for that long, and, he was honestly kind of a crybaby. People talk like it was great that he threw tantrums, but can't a guy be intense without being so childish?

[Mattingly85MVP]

He played the game with such passion and people loved him for it, played hurt, was a gritty player, and a "warrior" to quote The Boss. There's a reason why 57,000 serenaded him in his last game at yankee stadium

[Evangelion]

Posada's number could be retired, but it depends where he falls at the end of his career or whether or not he's consider a Hall of Fame level catcher. Honestly, I never took a look at Posada's current numbers and projected numbers to even make a guess if he's got a shot or no chance in hell of making the Hall of Fame.

Benrie Williams is a interesting case for retiring a number, but if Mattingly going to be retired, should Williams?

Jeter, Rivera and Torre are locks for their numbers being retired and likely all three to make the Hall of Fame.

We won't be around when it happens, but I wonder what happens when the Yankees run out of non-retired numbers to issue to players? They have a good shot at that if they continue to retire numbers at this current pace.

[Perseus71]

There's a case for Paul O'Neill. I think for all the numbers he put up for those years as a Yankee and walked away with (5) World Series championships, I would say yes.

And I agree with Mattingly here, that Don Mattingly, had he been healthy, would have really achieved greatness. It's like Wade Boggs said at his Hall Of Fame Interview that the Yankees '94 team was the best team he ever played on. Can you imagine if that strike had not happened?

[Mission 27]

I agree, the Yankees have gone too far with retiring numbers already. I definitely would not have reteired Maris, Jackson, and Guidry's numbers, and I'm not sold on Martin, Rizzuto, Munson, and Howard's numbers being retired. If you're going to retire these guys why not Tony Lazzeri, Earle Combs, Lefty Gomez, Allie Reynolds, Willie Randolph, Dave Winfield, Tommy Henrich, and so on?

I do wonder though how many players of the most recent dynasty will have their numbers retired. You have to figure it will be at least Torre, Jeter, and Rivera. Posada and Bernie could justifiably be retired, perhaps Pettitte as well. I also have a feeling the team would have retired Clemens' number if not for recent events. A-Rod could also end up with his number retired - who knows, in 10 years if the Yankees win a WS or two and A-Rod sets some records in a Yankees uniform, you have to think they'll retire his number.

I think Torre, Jeter, Mo and Bernie numbers should definitely be retired. Not Posada or Pettitte tho. For some reason in Pettitte's prime I always thought he got tons of run support, in big spots especially, and that he looked a lot better than he was cause of the offenses (I still love Pettitte, but I think he's a bit overrated at times).

I think Paul ONeill's 21 is questionable. I don't have a problem with Ensberg wearing it cause it's not retired and I don't think it will be while Ensberg will be in NY so it doesn't really matter..

[hellborn]

More to the point, from looking at that photo...why is Ensberg using Rich Gedman's swing? At least the one from late in his career, after Walt Hriniak ruined him...

EDIT...looking at this photo more, I wonder if Ensberg has become a slavish Lau/Hriniak disciple and that explains why he has lost his effectiveness at the plate. Those guys care more about releasing the top hand properly than hitting the ball.
Ground balls to the right side are better than HRs anyday, too! Charlie said so!!

[The_Leff_Fielder]

The lousy era should not be a reason for not retiring Mattingly's number. But like you said: "He falls short"." He was a fan favorite because he was one of the few home grown guys. But that does not make him worthy to retire his number.

That all depends on the criteria for a retired number. Whereas the Hall of Fame is all about honoring the most talented/successful players, I've always felt that a team should include the fan opinion in their retired number choices. Donnie Baseball might be the most popular Yankee since Babe Ruth. I'd retire his number if I were in charge.

[DoubleX]

Donnie Baseball might be the most popular Yankee since Babe Ruth. I'd retire his number if I were in charge.

Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Phil Rizzuto, Yogi Berra, Whitey Ford, Mickey Mantle, and Thurman Munson say hello.

[Mattingly]

I agree, the Yankees have gone too far with retiring numbers already. I definitely would not have reteired Maris, Jackson, and Guidry's numbers, and I'm not sold on Martin, Rizzuto, Munson, and Howard's numbers being retired. If you're going to retire these guys why not Tony Lazzeri, Earle Combs, Lefty Gomez, Allie Reynolds, Willie Randolph, Dave Winfield, Tommy Henrich, and so on?

I do wonder though how many players of the most recent dynasty will have their numbers retired. You have to figure it will be at least Torre, Jeter, and Rivera. Posada and Bernie could justifiably be retired, perhaps Pettitte as well. I also have a feeling the team would have retired Clemens' number if not for recent events. A-Rod could also end up with his number retired - who knows, in 10 years if the Yankees win a WS or two and A-Rod sets some records in a Yankees uniform, you have to think they'll retire his number.

I've said it before and I'll repeat myself, but I think that most of those retired numbers you'd mentioned are more symbolic, and some a matter of Big Stein's guilty feelings about how players were treated either by himself or the fans.

#9, Roger Maris
His number was likely retired because the Yankee fans booed him mercilessly, since they'd wanted their homegrown superstar Mickey Mantle passing Ruth, not a traded-for player. However, Mantle was in a hospital bed in Sept 1961. Some have said the number could've been retired for Graig Nettles instead.

#44, Reggie "Mr October" Jackson
Could've been because he went into the Hall as a Yankee. He's one of the more recent Yankee retired numbers, having been retired in around 2003 or so. If not for those 3 consecutive swats and a candy bar, he'd just be another retired Yankee in the Hall. 5 years as a Yankee gets your number retired? Hmmmmmmmm.

#49, Ron "Louisiana Lightning" Guidry
He had one great year, 1978. That was definitely his year, going 25-3, starting the fabled Oct 2, 1978 game. His number being retired around 2004 made it seem like a Hollywood Walk of Fame type of thing, more of an honorable knighting, like when the Queen of England taps you on the shoulder with a sword.

#1, Billy Martin
Likely more about mercy, since George fired him 4 times and he quit the last time. Could George have lived with his conscious bothering him had he not done that one favor for Martin, after having badgered someone who was such a perfect victim for his abuse and meddling ways, especially after a death on Christmas 1989?

#10, Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto
Likely more about his overall popularity. The Yanks have never had any truly great shortstops, and the best one they've had plays 3B. Still, has there ever been a better Yankee broadcasting team in recent years than Scooter yelling "Holy Cow" and Bill White? Make sure you eat your cannolis, buddy!

#15, Thurman Munson
El Capitan's very unfortunate death, I can't argue with. George, for all his faults, has been huge in terms of insuring that players' families were "taken care of" when they were gone. If anything, that was one note of distinction for him, and when one of his players dies so tragically, I won't even argue whether it's warranted or not. I'd just give it to him.

#32, Elston Howard
Likely to mark the fact that Howard was the first black Yankee. The late Ellie's daughter has sung the US National Anthem at games a few times, so his memory is still there.

I agree about the others, but after the whole "shopping numbers" thing with Winfield's #31 between the Yanks and Padres, then the whole Howard Spira thing, I tend to think that unless Winfield went into Cooperstown with a Yankee cap on, no way would #31 be retired. I guess that's why former setup Steve Karsay wore #31, but Mike Piazza had to abandon #31 when he went to San Diego.

Speaking of Tommy Henrich, a friend of mine told me a few years ago that for many years, he's been the last ex-teammate of one Lou Gehrig (this was the History Mod of another board). Yup, still having Yankee fans rolling on the floor and keeping the autograph lines bursting at the sides about the good ol' times.

[Mattingly]

I don't understand why I should leave Mattingly out of the discussion . You did not mention his number either.

Well, if you don't happen to like me, then so be it!

Anyway, let me piggyback a serious question onto this post:

Should Bernie's #51 be retired down the road?