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Thread: 09 WBC venues, pools, and rules changes announced

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by spark240 View Post
    Aren't the Japan and Puerto Rico venues also the same?
    Oops, I meant only one venue in the U.S. is the same. Sorry.

    As for the Venezuelans, I hope you're right. But I wonder if there's something more going on here. I've read that Chavez has been signaling that he intends for the state to take over MLB player development in the country and even play a role in contract negotiations for major league players. So this might not be simple pique: it could represent a real rebellion by Venezuelan players who are protecting their autonomy.

    But that's just speculation. I'm hoping it's just macho b.s. that a little wining and dining will cure. No Burger King!

    UPDATE: Here are some links following up on the Venezuelan team revolt described in the Sun-Times:

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

    http://canadianpress.google.com/arti...zw6nqYmOizUuJw
    Last edited by Rally Monkey; 08-07-2008 at 11:16 PM.

  2. #102

    Do or die

    Quote Originally Posted by NewEnglandAmazins View Post
    Does anyone think that the WBC final should be a Best of Three series?
    Though I see your point. I have to disagree because there is something special and it is more exciting when the game is do or die. It adds pressure and fear. Though I think that in a best of 3 series cuba may have beaten japan. I enjoyed the fact that both countries knew that a loss that day meant it was over. We cant deny that when you know that there is no tomorrow you play differently. Think about the red sox in 2004 when they thought to themselves if we dont win today against the yankees we go home, they kept that mentality throughout the series and that is why they won. I enjoy the one game and your done. I know that maybe cuba could have won if they had lazo and marti pitching but we can't deny that the way both japan and cuba played was amazing. I see keep the single elimination format. Do or die is the best kind of baseball to see

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
    I'm just saying for say someone like me, a student, I might just barely be able to afford to fly to Toronto for the games. Then if Canada advanced I could easily say I wouldn't follow due to travel costs. I'm sure there might be Japanese/Koreans/Taiwanese that must feel the same way about flying from their countries to North America.

    But maybe I'm feeling this way because I'm a poor student for the time being haha.
    Of course not. Most people are poor enough that overseas travel is expensive. Most people who are prosperous cannot get away unless they make a baseball tournament their first priority that year (and some cannot get away for their first priorities).

    Now how many people will travel Japan to Taiwan or vice versa, who will not cross the pacific? How many from Venezuela will travel to P.R. or Mexico but not across the pacific? I suppose the answer is that even short overseas travel is long enough to shut out most of those who would travel to a site within one of these countries.

    Of course there are other considerations for fans. Games played in a neighboring timezone may be easier to watch live on television.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 08-12-2008 at 01:02 PM.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    Of course not. Most people are poor enough that overseas travel is expensive.
    And flying ain't getting any cheaper.

    I'm thinking I might be looking at an Amtrak to Miami.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by quinnystar27 View Post
    Though I see your point. I have to disagree because there is something special and it is more exciting when the game is do or die. It adds pressure and fear. Though I think that in a best of 3 series cuba may have beaten japan. I enjoyed the fact that both countries knew that a loss that day meant it was over. We cant deny that when you know that there is no tomorrow you play differently. Think about the red sox in 2004 when they thought to themselves if we dont win today against the yankees we go home, they kept that mentality throughout the series and that is why they won. I enjoy the one game and your done. I know that maybe cuba could have won if they had lazo and marti pitching but we can't deny that the way both japan and cuba played was amazing. I see keep the single elimination format. Do or die is the best kind of baseball to see

    I understand your point of view, but respectfully disagree. Most high level Championships are determined by playing a Series of games. The World Baseball Classic should be no different. The same urgency of a Single game Championship can be generated in a Game 3 of a best-of-three series with the additional feature of familiarity. The result of a Single Game Final can be perceived as a fluke, whereas the results a Series of Games is little more definitive.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by NewEnglandAmazins View Post
    I understand your point of view, but respectfully disagree. Most high level Championships are determined by playing a Series of games. The World Baseball Classic should be no different. The same urgency of a Single game Championship can be generated in a Game 3 of a best-of-three series with the additional feature of familiarity. The result of a Single Game Final can be perceived as a fluke, whereas the results a Series of Games is little more definitive.
    I do see your point and to some extent agree because I think cuba would have beaten japan in a best of 3 series. But I am still in favor for single elimination game. Think of the superbowl if it was played in a best of 3 series the Patriots would have probably won. But because it was a do or die and the giants brought their best and the patriots couldn't respond in time the giants won and deserve it. Think of USA basketball in the world championships in japan. The USA team lost to greece but if it was a best of 3 series then the USA would have won. Think of the olympics now, if team USA loses to argentina I am sure most people would think that the USA is still the better team but just lost that game. However that still counts argentina played better that game. I know series format seems better cuz a more proper champion will be shown but in single elimination it is all or nothing. You either bring your best or u dont, no second chances. Even in the world cup you can say that some teams just played bad that day, but were better then the other. France lost to italy in the final but then 3 weeks later france played italy in a friendly with nearly the same players and france destroyed italy by 3 goals. I like the pressure of one and done and i think it makes it better. Plus tournament format is always done that way

  7. #107
    An update on the Team Venezuela dramatics:

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-spk...1341363.column

    Looks like Sojo's out.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by quinnystar27 View Post
    I know series format seems better cuz a more proper champion will be shown but in single elimination it is all or nothing. You either bring your best or u dont, no second chances.
    Few of the international team sports championships use knockout until near the end such as the final four teams. Evidently baseball values longer trials but organizers now place greater value on the certainty that finalists and champions will be determined on particular days (eg, Saturday and Sunday) and in particular time slots.

    In the Fifa World Cup and the Super Bowl, maybe in all other team sports, every single game does match the two teams.

    One game does not match baseball teams, only Nines. Both teams have staffs from which they choose one pitcher for each game. In a tournament played on consecutive or alternating days, the best pitcher available depends on team success, perhaps, and arbitrary scheduling, probably, that happened earlier in the tournament.

    Only the tournament tests whole teams, not in matches 1:1 but collectively. When only two or four or eight teams remain, selected by early stages as the best teams in a rough sense, there is naturally greater interest in matching teams 1:1. The collective contest provided by the tournament becomes less satisfying at each knockout stage (eg 8, then 4, then 2). When the tournament has selected the best two in its sense, the interest in matching the whole teams is greatest.
    Even in the world cup you can say that some teams just played bad that day, but were better then the other. France lost to italy in the final but then 3 weeks later france played italy in a friendly with nearly the same players and france destroyed italy by 3 goals.
    The championship game did match the whole teams under pressure that the friendly match could not provide. In the meantime, France lived with its disappointment and perhaps faced sharp criticism at home; on the contrary for Italy. The emotional settings for the two games, including the pressure conditions, could not be more different.
    I like the pressure of one and done and i think it makes it better. Plus tournament format is always done that way.
    The American college baseball championship was a double elimination tournament for decades. It converted to knockout in the final stage in order to provide a certain championship game, I believe. (maybe semifinal games too)

  9. #109
    The Canadian Press is reporting that the first opening round match-up in Pool C will be Canada against the United States at 2 pm on March 7:

    http://canadianpress.google.com/arti...0mmrN-l7ozJljQ

    And someone posted the following schedule on another baseball forum:

    1. Sat. Mar. 7 @ 2:00- Canada v. U.S.;
    2. Sat. Mar. 7 @8:00 Italy v. Venezuela;
    3. Sun. Mar. 8 @8:00 Game 1 winner v. game 2 winner;
    4. Mon. Mar. 9 @7:00- Game 1 loser v. game 2 loser;
    5. Tues. Mar. 10 game 4 winner v. game 3 loser;
    8. Wed. Mar. 11 game 3 winner v. game 5 winner.

    http://www.baseballforum.com/world-b...c-toronto.html

    This is a little confusing, because the WBC organizers previously announced that the Pool C games at the Rogers Centre would start on Sunday, March 8, and end on Thursday the 12th. So I don't know if this news will check out in the end.
    Last edited by Rally Monkey; 09-16-2008 at 11:11 PM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    The American college baseball championship was a double elimination tournament for decades. It converted to knockout in the final stage in order to provide a certain championship game, I believe. (maybe semifinal games too)
    The top college baseball tournament is the NCAA Division I College World Series. In the most recent format (since 2003) this is a bracketed double-elimination tournament (among the winners of regional tournaments) with a best-of-3 series between the two finalists.

  11. #111
    Thanks for the reference to the current College World Series (Div I) arrangement.

    The crucial device there is complete double elimination within every bracket (two), so that each bracket sends one team to the knockout round and none of the teams in the knockout have met previously in the tournament. One "minor" part of it is the maybe-offday June 22 --on offday in every bracket with a team that wins three straight. That rewards the teams who win three straight rather than winning their brackets with one defeat (3-1), but it may be a "major" problem for the economics of a tournament.

    Was that 2008 C.W.S. schedule planned or generated by rain on June 19 ? It seems odd that "game sixes" within the brackets (games 11 and 12) match teams with four and two days rest in one case but teams with three and zero! days rest in the other case. The team with no rest (UNC) did win once but needed to win twice to advance, and thereby to play five or six consecutive days.

    Fresno did win the championship by playing five consecutive days. When they met in game one of the final, Monday June 23, UGA and Fresno had the following very different patterns of gamedays and offdays during the preceding week, Monday to Sunday.

    XOOOOXO UGA - only one game since the previous Monday!
    OXOOOXX Fresno

    In a full double-elimination such as the college world series a couple decades ago, those two teams would have played each other after winning their first two games --probably on the offday marked bold-- instead of waiting around for losers brackets to be completed. But that structure does not produce a final matchup between new opponents.


    International team tournaments seem to use brackets with multiple winners, such as four teams where two advance. Heats on the track and in the pool are similar, with results like two to five out of six to eight contestants advancing to the next round.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Monkey View Post
    The Canadian Press is reporting that the first opening round match-up in Pool C will be Canada against the United States at 2 pm on March 7:

    http://canadianpress.google.com/arti...0mmrN-l7ozJljQ

    And someone posted the following schedule on another baseball forum:

    1. Sat. Mar. 7 @ 2:00- Canada v. U.S.;
    2. Sat. Mar. 7 @8:00 Italy v. Venezuela;
    3. Sun. Mar. 8 @8:00 Game 1 winner v. game 2 winner;
    4. Mon. Mar. 9 @7:00- Game 1 loser v. game 2 loser;
    5. Tues. Mar. 10 game 4 winner v. game 3 loser;
    8. Wed. Mar. 11 game 3 winner v. game 5 winner.
    And now the Taiwan News is reporting that the first round matchups in Pool A (the Tokyo Dome series) will start with Korea v. Taiwan and Japan v. China. See http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_....php?id=743403.

    No official announcement yet from MLB or the WBC.

  13. #113
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    So, although we have no official word this is what we have so far...

    March 5th
    China v. Japan

    March 6th
    Taiwan v. Korea

    March 7th
    United States v. Canada
    Italy v. Venezuela

    Also, I've put together a document with all of the games that WBC teams have played. I understand that some teams like the Cuban team is pretty much the same in all tournaments, but for this document I only used results from the training camps ahead of the WBC, as well as the WBC itself.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    Was that 2008 C.W.S. schedule planned or generated by rain on June 19 ?
    Hey, good eye. Yes, the UNC/LSU game 10 was originally scheduled for June 19.

  15. #115
    News on Pool D match-ups. A Spanish language newspaper reported last week that Pool D will open with Puerto Rico against Panama on March 7. And it seems that the Dominican Republic will lead off against the Netherlands on the same bill. As in the Toronto-based Pool C, the opening day double-header will be followed the next day with a game between the first game winners. And the losers of the opening games will then face off on March 9 in the first elimination game.

    Here's the link (in Spanish):
    http://www.prensa.com/hoy/deportes/1529583.html

    The story contains some other interesting tidbits. There'll still be a mandatory pitch-count--but it'll be higher. And Rod Carew to manage Team Panama? (I don't understand the announced details regarding instant replay. Can a real Spanish-speaker help out here?)
    Last edited by Rally Monkey; 09-29-2008 at 10:11 PM.

  16. #116
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    Was a third place game added this time?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
    Was a third place game added this time?
    Nope. Same as last time. The only way to figure that out will be the win-loss and head-to-head records.

  18. #118
    Uh oh. Looks like the chaos engulfing Team Venezuela hasn't ended. There have been several key resignations from the Venezuela organizing committee. And it's been reported that things may get worse.

    http://www.eltiempo.com.ve/noticias/....asp?id=166158

    I hope they can get their act together--and that Johan Santana can heal up in time to play. A less-than-full-strength Venezuelan roster would be a blemish on the tournament.

  19. #119
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    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3630671

    ESPN to show 23 games - 6 from Tokyo, 3 from Toronto, 4 from San Juan, 7 from the second round, Semifinals and Final

    MLB Network to show 16 games - 6 from Mexico City, 3 from Toronto, 2 from San Juan, 5 from the second round

  20. #120
    Here's more:

    ESPN will offer multimedia coverage of the 2009 World Baseball Classic beginning March 5, 2009, with coverage across ESPN, ESPN HD, ESPN2 ESPN2 HD, ESPN Deportes, ESPNews, ESPN International, ESPN Deportes Radio, ESPN360.com and ESPN Mobile.

    ESPN and ESPN2 will combine to televise 23 games in the U.S. And all of those games will be simulcast via ESPN360.com and ESPN Mobile TV.

    ESPN Deportes, ESPN’s Spanish-language TV network, will also televise 24 games and those games will be available both in the U.S., Puerto Rico, Guam and the Virgin Islands.

    And ESPN International will distribute coverage of up to 39 games.
    http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/content_...e61d5786ecbbe6

    Also, MLB announced that the MLB Network will launch a nightly studio show, "World Baseball Classic Tonight," in late February that will feature highlights, analysis, feature stories and special reports on the tournament. And it will also air the "World Baseball Classic Selection Show," a studio show reporting on the announcement of the rosters.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releas...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

  21. #121
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    MLB Network to Launch Nightly WBC Show!!

    ESPN and MLB to air all 39 games nationwide

    World Baseball Classic, Inc. has reached agreements with ESPN and MLB Network for shared broadcast rights for the 2009 World Baseball Classic, it was announced today. The World Baseball Classic, the world’s premier international baseball tournament, will feature the world’s best players representing 16 countries and territories, and will be played in seven different venues in five nations and territories from March 5 - 23.
    I just hope ESPN doesn't muck it up again by prioritizing some meaningless NIT game on both ESPN and ESPN2.

    Network to Launch Nightly Show Dedicated to World Baseball Classic

    MLB Network will televise 16 World Baseball Classic games this Spring along with a nightly studio show dedicated to the world’s premier international baseball tournament. The World Baseball Classic, the world’s premier international baseball tournament, will feature the world’s best players representing 16 countries and territories, and will be played in seven different venues in five nations and territories from March 5 – 23.
    World Baseball Classic Tonight, which will debut in late February, will feature highlights, analysis, feature stories and special reports on the tournament, its teams, players and coaches. MLB Network also will air the World Baseball Classic Selection Show, a studio show reporting on the announcement of the rosters.

    “The acquisition of the World Baseball Classic demonstrates our commitment to airing big events and showcasing a wide variety of baseball programming,” said Tony Petitti, MLB Network President and CEO. “With game broadcasts and studio programming dedicated to the World Baseball Classic, MLB Network will provide in-depth coverage to all of the action and stories of the ultimate global baseball tournament.”
    hope my cable provider will carry MLB Network

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewEnglandAmazins View Post
    I just hope ESPN doesn't muck it up again by prioritizing some meaningless NIT game on both ESPN and ESPN2.



    hope my cable provider will carry MLB Network
    I doubt mine will. Oh, they'll carry The Golf Channel and eveery shopping channel known to man, but they don't carry The NFL Network, so I doubt they'll carry the MLB Network...
    Man, do I *HATE* the Yankees!!!!!!

  23. #123
    You'll probably get it. MLB forced cable companies to carry its MLB Network as part of their basic tier packages by threatening to sell its very, very profitable MLB Extra Innings out-of-town baseball package to DirecTV exclusively. So most cable companies will have it--and, unlike the NFL Network, cable carriers won't relegate MLBN to their "sports tier". If you have basic cable, and your carrier offers MLB Extra Innings on demand, that means you'll be getting the MLB Network. And you can watch your fill of WBC games.

    It's a sweet deal. For the first time I can remember, MLB has bested the NFL in a business venture. How about that?

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Monkey View Post
    You'll probably get it. MLB forced cable companies to carry its MLB Network as part of their basic tier packages by threatening to sell its very, very profitable MLB Extra Innings out-of-town baseball package to DirecTV exclusively. So most cable companies will have it--and, unlike the NFL Network, cable carriers won't relegate MLBN to their "sports tier". If you have basic cable, and your carrier offers MLB Extra Innings on demand, that means you'll be getting the MLB Network. And you can watch your fill of WBC games.

    It's a sweet deal. For the first time I can remember, MLB has bested the NFL in a business venture. How about that?
    My provider is Bright House...morons
    Man, do I *HATE* the Yankees!!!!!!

  25. #125
    There's a cable carrier called "Bright House"? Who comes up with these names?

    Anyway, according to its website, your carriers offers MLB Extra Innings on demand. So that means you'll be getting the MLB Network on basic cable. Enjoy!

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