whats your definition of each.how do you fix them and what cues would you tell a tween player to fix them?
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whats your definition of each.how do you fix them and what cues would you tell a tween player to fix them?
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I have a kid (11) on my team who isn't a strong hitter. I've got most of the kids taking a very small step towards the pitcher on their swings. This kid will take a HUGE step, like maybe a 1 ft. long. He does this WAY too early and is stuck in an awkward position trying to wait, then swing. I guess you might use the word drifting here too because his whole body will shift to his left (he's a RHB) because of this step. There are many drills out there that work on keeping the weight on the back foot. This is my solution to his problem.
Student of the game.
I define lunging as the head getting ahead of the front hip.Originally Posted by wogdoggy
There can be a couple of root causes.
1. Trying to go get the ball rather than waiting for the ball to come to you. In that case, the fix is for them to wait for the ball to come to them.
2. Trying to adjust up/down in the strike zone while still swinging level to the ground. In that case, the fix is to learn how to tilt to adjust to pitches up/down in the strike zone.
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If they are lunging or drifting, it probably means a few things:
1. They are not balanced at toe touch (an absolute)
2. When the foot (heel) comes down, they are probably still moving forward. It helps for them to see this on video
Get it into their heads that their are only two major steps to hitting:
1. Take a step towards the pitcher (90 percent of pros do, or if they don't they still get weight shift).
2. Rotate (meaning your body and head has stopped moving toward the pitcher
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This is a good topic, Imo.
The attempt to teach forward movement without them (bear with me) carrying their head forward with that movement is tough,,,at first.
This movement, weight shift, movement of the mass is critical for momentum in the swing and must be "contained between the feet." (Meaning that the "shift" is more drastic when they first are learning and then becomes much more subtle in nature. Hope that makes some sense.
This movement, weight shift, movement of the mass, may be the phase that creates separation of lower and upper body.???
One way that I've demonstrated the proper (at least what I feel is proper) weight shift is to have them stand where they can see their shadow and to focus on their head.
In other words;
Can they "shift" and keep their head in pretty much the same place?
(Same point as swing coach is making)
If you were to try this--- you might feel your weight move to the inside of the back leg / foot---then when you shift to the inside of the front leg / foot.
Not that I coined the phrase but to me it is "going forward yet staying back."
My two cents.
Team Veteran
This kid doesnt straight step...he "coils" his lower body...when he uncoils he tends to coil out more than desirable {RHander} to third base..the coil vs step has helped this guy time the ball beetter and hit with more power..the downside is coiling out and getting excessive head movement..personally I'd rather see the coil than the straight step..i believe lunging and drifting are one of the worst faults most LL er's will have.
my cues have been let the ball get to you,keep your knees a lil more flexed,HEAD STILL and one I may try is "keep your weight inside your left foot"???????
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That's what Nyman was referring to when he said you have to have some momemtum to rotate well. You don't necessarily have to have a lot, but you have to have some.
Well that seems a rather incomplete definition of rotation but I would have said the head and front hip joint stops moving toward the pitcher. Back hip and shoulder still continue to move toward the pitcher but I agree with your point which I assume to be the front hip and head shouldn't be moving forward during rotation.
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I'm not concerned if the head is moving during the stride. http://www.theswearingens.com/mick/swing.htm
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Sounds like you are exploring some good things. For anyone interested I suggest understanding the nature of the uncoil can be furthered by reading Dixon's book and studying Englishbey's stuff.
Team Veteran
YES if you believe in nothing happens till foot plant..why have the excessive movement if not useful.. why move the head so much??I'm looking for cues to keep this kids off their front side WITHOUT making them reverse rotating bug squishers.
Registered User
Me neither.
Good point. Thanks. Didn't mean to indicate zero movement, so I included;
I should have been more clear, because there is (again IMO) a lot that happens during this "shifting" that can hinder launch.Can they "shift" and keep their head in pretty much the same place?
For example, with some of the kids I work with, when first learning, the weight shift back they exhibit more of a "sway" (rather than an inward turn) and the resulting move forward leads to a "crash" onto the front side OR they stay on the back side completely OR they continue translating forward never "containing their weight" between the feet.
This word picture may work for someone here.
Using the clip in this thread I might choose to work with this hitter to feel little (not zero) head movement-- as a possible / partial solution to his lunging and to help move him along in the process.
Not with all ---but with some of the kids I work with---this has assisted with them being able to contain their weight between the feet,,,shifting more subtly, still creating momentum.
Woggy, there is something else I do,
(please exuse the simplistic nature, it's just how I do it when in front of a kid)
Dry swings.
I will hold a pole about 4" away from the left side of their face (RHB) and ask them to stride. They can (Mark) touch the pole but their head can't move past it. I want them to feel and I want to see them "shift" and rotate under their chin / head.
Would this assist in them learning to "block forward movement" better? Maybe.
Would this assist in them slowly grasping the need to execute "quicker" movement (because of the shorter space you've given them) to enhance momentum?
Maybe.
Good luck Woggy.
Registered User
Donny on "Stopping the Lunge"
- Lunging batters have no negative loading moves.
- Coiling the hips and triggering the hands as the weight is carried forward in the stride helps stop lunging.
- Hitters with no negative loading moves will lunge
- I have never seen a kid that had hip coil and a good upper body loading pattern that lunged.
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Five Frame,
Excellent.
Sometimes cause and effect can be realized in different ways.
I spoke to Donnie specifically about this on the phone.
One thing he told me; (paraphrasing)
"Don't be surprised when eliminating the lunging, with your methods, that your kids begin to develop a better loading pattern." "Watch for it." "They will discover they need to position themselves (load) to generate power."
Registered User
Clif-
Donny and I talked a lot about shift and the 1 vs 2 plane patterns quite a bit.
In the 2 plane/mlb type pattern the main adjustment is adjusting the spine angle by synched tilt of the shoulders and shift of spine.
This base of spine shift ("T") is illustrated in golf here synched with the rocking/tilting of the shoulders which are then turned by then hips as the hips turn after the lateral shift, see:
http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing07.php
In the MLB hitting pattern, you need the forward momentum "carry" via hip cock, then the base of spine needs to be able to shift at "GO" synched to the tilt of the shoulders which in turn is synched to/controlled by the torque of the forearms/hands on the handle of the bat.
This synched spine shift/shoulder tilt (superimposed on the forward momentum/coil/sit that is underway as you rotate into toe touch) adjusts the spine angle as the primary adjustment for location with the last little bit of adjustment then coming from how much the lead arm gets up off the chest (weathervane).
This synch of shoulder/hip/weight shift is quite different from one plane golf (and PCR hitting) where the main spine angle adjustment is by bend at waist and turning rather than tilting the shoulders with weight starting more even and then flowing to the front foot rather than the more pronounced back and forth weight shift of the 2P swing.
This is why Donny was emphasizing the negative move to encourage the back and forth weight SHIFT that goes along with the 2 plane golf and MLB type tip and rip.
Team Veteran
are we talking about a negative load like the one candreia{SP}???? talks about with team usa{tom linked it from you tube},,OR do you consider the negative load as a move with the rear right buttock toward the 3 base dug out{PUJOLS CLIP}
one actually promotes a "SWAY" backwards vs a more true hip cock..
he actually seems to lunge less when he bends his knees more.
Registered User
I did not say there was a reason to move the head. I pointed out it's not a universal to keep it still during the stride. Who believes nothing happens till foot plant? Only place I ever heard that was Dick Mills talking about pitching. Why would you want to keep them off their front side when hitters obviously have their weight on and against their front foot during the swing? If you want to keep them from hip sliding or lunging, sure. But if you are looking for cues to make that happen that's not the way I would approach it though any given cue can be golden with any given kid. Of course I would point you to Steve's drills and understanding of the swing but you have been there and don't like it. I leave you to your search for effective cues and wish you well.
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That all sounds good to me and sounds like the words of a man who actually works with real live hitters. That has to be respected.
Registered User
I HAVE seen a RightView proponent trying to add the "negative move" to a competent hitter create hip slide that he didn't understand.
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There you go again. Don't I recall Scott pointing out that Hardy says the one plane swing is the swing in baseball?
How are the in person lessons with GoCardinals coming along?
Last edited by Mark H; 05-16-2008 at 05:16 PM.
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woggy said;
"are we talking about a negative load like the one candreia{SP}???? talks about with team usa{tom linked it from you tube},,OR do you consider the negative load as a move with the rear right buttock toward the 3 base dug out{PUJOLS CLIP}
"one actually promotes a "SWAY" backwards vs a more true hip cock.."
WOGGY -
I think the absolutes of the early part of the motion are:
1- rhythmic preswing activity, somewhat analagous to a waggle in golf where you are preparing the body and especially hands for the back and forth alternating type rhythm of the MLB swing where the hands will have an important seprarted type action as opposed to working llike a single hinge.
2- the there needs to be an inward/backward turn of the whole body to spatially prepare for "early batspeed"
(yes there is such a thing as early batspeed).
this inward turn always involves shift of weight in the sense of more weight being carried on the back foot as measured for example by Yeager's force plates measuring the force at the centers of pressure of the feet. turning the whole body back (without creating any significant early shoulder-hip separation/"x-factor" - the "excessive cunterrotation flaw" must be avoided here although it is highly desirable/essential in the 1 plane golf swing) amd carrying more weight on back foot are absolute requirements of the negative move.
shifting the center of mass of the body is NOT an absolute, but MAY be involved. if the center is shifted, this creates another moving part/potential source of error in having to shift the center back and frtyh in the right sequebce at the right time, but many expert swingers can handle this.
omitting the negative move is a big problem as emphasized by Williams and Dusty Baker for example (Williams describes fixing this flaw in harrelson on p.46 of SCIENCE and Baker calls it the "dead hips" flaw).
3 - NEXT comes the ccking of the hip which creates a stable posture for carrying the weight in such a way that a later discrete SHIFT is possible while enabing a well timed coil/separation of the body when significant x-factor creation and sit as the swing preparation proceeds.
the upper body controller/trigger for cocking the hips is primarily the internal rotation of the back arm in both throwing and swinging in the MLB pattern as the stride foot is lifted which puts all the weight on the back foot
an important part of this inward turn and hip cock is loading into the back hip joint. this is done in the same way as in the 2 plane golf swing and NOT in the same way as the one plane golf swing.
in the one plane golf swing as with PCR, you bend way over at the waist which requires sticking the butt out as a counterbalance and keeping one butt or the other stuck out to retain this bent over spine angle. this is why one plane golfers talk about the feel of keeping the butt cheeks on a wall behind them for spine angle stabilty when bent way over. see May issue of golf digest for another good series of descriptions of 1 vs 2 plane by Hardy:
cheeks to the wall for 1 planer:
http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...aking90_gd0805
different look of swing/hips in 1 v 2 plane golf;
http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/
in the 2 plane swing in golf and hitting, the back hip stays where it is, it does not turn back against the wall, and the front hip is brought in toward the plate. this is why you see many MLB hittters gravitate toward taking a 2 piece stride from an open stance with the first pat of the stride being a step back/in that starts the back hip loadin in the right way FOLLOWED by hip cock when the stride fiit is next lifted.
A lot of ULL hitters are doing this this year, emulating their best hitter, Tankersely, for example in fastpitch.
Paying attention to these absolutes will encourage a good preparation for SHIFT and not SWAY.
Registered User
Mark referenced the work of Hardy.I agree, read HArdy. it's even better than Dixon or Nyman or Englishbey or anyone in hitting.
what Hardy says is that the basic total body/high level/expert swing comes in 2 basic varieties depending on how the shoulders work in connecting the body to the upper limbs and club.
either you use the shoulders actively to turn the club in the shoulder plane as the body turns (1 plane), OR the shoulders are more repsonsive responding to the arms as the swing plane is formed by a blend of the up/dowm swing of the arms and the back and forth turn of the body(2plane).
ALL golf swings use the same underlying kinetic chain/body torque/handle torque/forward momentum mechanical model, BUT beyond this there are 2 very different patterns of motion, or said another way in Nyman lingo. "there IS such a thing as good mechanics" which in the case of the MLB baseball swing is the 2 plane pattern.
there are only 2 basic patterns in golf because the scap mechanics determine the pattern and there are only 2 basic options in spite of the fact that the scaps have a number of ways to move. either they actively swing the club around the body or they respong to the dominant upper limbs with the "swing down" feel (arm action is king - not scaps - pattern).
the swing around/1 plane feel is typical of beginner/low level baseball because the ball is typically waist high when generally conceptualizing a baseball swing in learners
the hockey slap shot is a closer approximation becasue, even though you are slapping the puck, you do it by bending over and swinging around, not swinging down.
the classic golf swing was 2 plane. thought of as swinging down, and so is the only successful hitting pattern in MLB which is why the pros describe the necessity of learning to swing down in succeeding at the MLB level.
you do not swing down in MLB by bending way over at the waist and sticking your butt out. this swig can not work in hitting becasue it REQUIRES large early x-factor (AKA "excessive counterrotation") to create it's "Early batspeed" and reaction time does not permit this in baseball. the atttempt is made to compensate for this in "PCRW" by hook of the handpath to segment transfer of momentum, but this prevents the necessary spatially early batspeed needed to read the pitch and match location late as MLB players do it with very active hands and forearms which ar NOT by any means just along for thr ride/hanging on to the dang bat.
MLB hiiters need to learn to quicken up and adjust late by torquing the handle and tilting the shoulders and keeping the hands and shoulders back with top down control of synched upper/lower body action and prominant back and forth weight shift.
these mechanics are very different fromPCR/1 plane, and
there IS such a thing as good mechanics.
Last edited by tom.guerry; 05-16-2008 at 09:30 PM.
HS baseball player
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Last edited by Go Cardinals; 05-16-2008 at 11:06 PM.
Team Veteran
I leave you to your search for effective cues and wish you well.[/QUOTE]
hold on to the damn bat and rotate didnt quite cut it..you know those darn cues.
Registered User
Are you 100% certain that Steve's initial function of the hands is incorrect? Consider the hand/barrel load during the forward weight shift to toe-touch (i.e., ready position). From the point of the ready position, what is the initial rotational hand path relative to other body parts? Think in terms of the Kinetic sequence ala Chris Yeager, DeRenne, etc.. I personally like Yeagers description of "maintaining lead arm extension", but I can understand why others might teach the "maintaining the box" approach ... not my favorite (because it hinders obtaining lead arm extension for my students), but it's understandable within the description of the Kinetic link.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 05-17-2008 at 09:35 PM.
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