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The problem is the P.E.S.'s. And deservedly so. Personally, I am not interested in honoring cheaters. No matter how good they might be in the absence of the cheating.
McGwire got there, but struggles with 25% of the HOF vote. There wasn't a lot of hoopla when Frank Thomas and Jim Thome got there, or as Manny Ramirez approaches. Has 500 lost its appeal because of the chemically enhanced method of reaching it?
And perhaps the bigger question, will steroids continue to be a black mark on history when these players come up for Cooperstown consideration?
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The problem is the P.E.S.'s. And deservedly so. Personally, I am not interested in honoring cheaters. No matter how good they might be in the absence of the cheating.
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Was there a lot of hoopla when Willie McCovey and Eddie Matthews reached 500 HRs? Between September 1965 and September 1971 SEVEN players hit their 500th HR. Six of these players did it between 1967-71.Originally Posted by hairmetalfreek
Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis
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500 homeruns should mean even more during the steroid era because they were obtained batting against pitchers using the stuff.
That was before my lifetime, but I remember quite a lot of talk when Reggie Jackson and Mike Schmidt got there.
It's really unfortunate when those who have done it legitimately are overlooked. Even Griffey, closing in on 600, isn't getting much media attention (even in Cincinnati).
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Yes, but homeruns were still much easier to come by because of smaller parks, smaller strikezones, tighter baseballs (maybe), body armor, along with other things I am sure. I am not completely sold on the fact that pitchers benefit as much from steroid use as hitters, anyway.
As far as the above factors tainting the "500" homerun milestone: first of all, hitting 500 homeruns is what it is - an arbitrary counting milestone. A nice round number, that should never be the only thing looked at for HOF induction. However, I do not think it should lose what luster it has until guys that aren't great hitters start doing it. Thomas, Thome, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Sheffield, etc. were all great hitters and would be HOF material without hitting 500 homeruns to begin with. I do not think this group of 500 homerun hitters (or soon to be 500 homerun hitters) waters down the field at all. Now ask me again in a 10 years if an Adam Dunn does it, and I may have a different story.
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500 means just as much as it did in the past, IMO. The reason for McGwire's snubbing in the HOF voting has more to do with his PEDs use than anything.
The real benchmark will be in seeing how the current 500 HR guys who were not linked to PEDs use who have yet to appear on a HOF ballot do in upcoming elections. It'll also be interesting to see how McGriff does as he would be the all time HR leader not in the HOF to be kept out for reasons other than PEDs use.
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Yes, but who's to say who does it "legitimately" and who doesn't?
As for Griffey, the team and local media have hyped the "chase for 600" plenty. It's not their fault Griffey's been stuck on 597 for half a month.
No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." -- Connie Mack
Here's why I don't care about PED allegations: I believe we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. A few names have been tossed out there that have tainted those players. But I believe there was a time, about a decade ago, that a majority of professional players were using something. It was the state of the game at the time.
Look at McGriff's strange late-career resurgence, his OPS+ from 1991-2002:
age OPS+
27 147
28 166
29 143
30 157
31 119
32 119
33 106
34 111
35 142
36 110
37 144
38 125
In his late prime, 1991-94, his average OPS+ was 153.
In his decline pahase, 1995-98, his OPS+ was 114.
The next year, Jose Canseco became his teammate.
McGriff found new life, 1999-2002, his OPS+ was 130.
I believe that most of the PED users have yet to be named.
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
The sanctity of 500 HR's is toast. McGwire isn't getting in anytime soon and don't forget Rafael Palmeiro. He doesn't have much better chance than I do and he is a 500HR/3K hit guy.
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Griffey and 600 home runs...wow. His total will always feel underwhelming due to what he could have acheived. If he had reached 756, there would be no bitterness.
Everyone who isn't a known or widely suspected user that hit 500 home runs will make it into the Hall of Fame on their first ballot. This will be proven when the crime dog marches into the doors of Coop with his 493.
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> Has 500 lost its appeal because of the chemically enhanced method of reaching it?
No, it has less luster mainly because more people are hitting 500 and many more are hitting 400, which was not true when Banks, Mathews, and McCovey reached 500. (Everyone with 400 was in the Hall of Fame. Right?)
> 500 means just as much as it did in the past, IMO.
But should we believe that anyone made it to the Hall of Fame because he hit 500 homeruns? Who would be on the outside if he had retired with 492, one behind Lou Gehrig?
I think 500 homeruns means a lot less unless the recipient of the milestone doesn't have any other fantastic numbers that accompany it. One reason why I don't think McGwire would belong even if he didn't have the P.E.D. cloud looming overhead. A lousy career batting average of .263, only 1626 hits. His slugging percentage is fantastic, and his OBP is solid, but he doesn't have any other numbers or factors that really blow me away.
But a guy like Jim Thome, who I rarely hear get talked about for the Hall, has over 500 homers, a solid .280/.408/.562 clip, he'll probably finish with around 2200 hits and 1600 RBIs. Plus, you've never heard one negative thing about the guy. Jim's a great player who deserves his Hall spot in a much higher regard than McGwire the cheater.
500 hoime runs is not a guarentee anymore. Look how many have reached it in the past 10 years. I would say 600 would be a better barometer.
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Agreed. Pitchers are rarely brought up in the PED discussions for some reason. Its rather odd.
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I think it has lost meaning because of the amount of players in the steroid era that reached it the wrong way but it's still a very nice accomplishment. Think about it, there's only 24 players (correct me if I'm wrong) that have reached this plateau. It just happens that there's a lot of players that came from a great hitting era that have recently hit 500, like it has happened in past decades. And I agree with what another poster said, what makes it even more impressive for the players that did it cleanly is the fact that they did it in an era where the pitchers were also on steroids. Of course the cheaters get no respect but people will remember the great hitters that did it cleanly because they hit 500 home runs. Manny Ramirez, Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas etc.
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The reason why is because pitchers are generally told to stay whippy, not to gain a lot of bulk.
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"My own little rule was two for one. If one of my teammates got knocked down, then I knocked down two on the other team." - Don Drysdale
"...But the saddest words of all to a pitcher are three: 'Take him out,'" - Christy Mathewson
Its a shame that PEDs are part of this subject at all....
...because I believe the number of 500 has been diluted for several reasons: 1. smaller ballparks (especially in the NL), 2. watered down pitching due to expansion, and 3. a smaller strike zone since about 1986 (the year is a guess, I have no data). Each of these reasons has had an impact, and its hard to say how much.
In other words, we'll never know how many of Raffy Palmeiro's homers were; 1. legit; 2. how many cleared a fence which was just a bit shorter than a previous fence or previous stadium's fence; 3. how many occurred because the umpire didn't have the cajones to call strike three on the previous pitch; 4. and how many occurred because the pitcher was AAA quality.
Its all guesswork, and because of that I offer the blanket statement that MLB has allowed the advent of the homerun to mean less and less in the name of selling seats to fans who are not purists, like those here on BBF.
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legit
The way it was when I was eleven.
. Jim's a great player who deserves his Hall spot in a much higher regard than McGwire the cheater.
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I do not see why he deserves it. What besides hitting 500 home runs has he done to deserve it. No mvp no hitting titles . 280 is just an decent batting average these days.
PED's are no way anymore cheating than a healthy diet and lifting weights. So many people want to fight science and the future. Cheating is scuffing a ball or corking a bat, not improving your body.
Every WS Win a Shutout
It doesn't matter if its improving your body or altering the equipment, if it's illegal then it's illegal, and if someone is setting records by doing something that is illegal, then it marks the game.
“There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” – Walter Lippmann
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
"My own little rule was two for one. If one of my teammates got knocked down, then I knocked down two on the other team." - Don Drysdale
"...But the saddest words of all to a pitcher are three: 'Take him out,'" - Christy Mathewson
Suppose they were not illegal? Oh then they would be ok with everyone? Cuban cigars are illegal, but if a player smokes them and sets records, should he too have an asterick?
Personally, I can't wait for the day when an over-the-counter mirracle suppliment comes out that is equally as powerful as steroids, but safe and legal. We're still 10-15 years away from this, but it's coming. Then what are the purists gonna do?
Isn't the idea to be the best without using a "magic potion." Then are you the best or is it your pharmacist? Is it really much different than two people taking a test one sutdies, pays attention in class and gets an A, the other goes to class gets a copy of last year's test online and gets an A. I wait for the day where people are content with what they are and the how they get there based on their own efforts rather than on the latest pharmacological advances to cover up for their own inadequacies but other I guess see things differently. I think I'll die of old age before that day comes.
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