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Thread: The Ultimate Quest for Candidates - Final Ranking

  1. #1
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    The Ultimate Quest for Candidates - Final Ranking

    Welcome to the Ultimate Quest for Candidates! This is the final round, where we take the top 20 candidates for the Hall of Fame and rank them in order. There will not be a poll with this thread, we're going for a more precise ranking in order to tell the Hall, "Here's the next player you should be inducting. And the next. And the next...." We'll allow two or three weeks for everyone to weigh in with their rankings and discussion of who should be ranked high or low.

    You may change your ballot at any time before the official tally is done; in fact, here I would encourage voters to consider other's ballots and alternative assessments of these players. Comments on other people's ballots are welcome; if you think a voter blew it, try to persuade them to see things differently.

    As always, we will be judging players by the same criteria that the Hall of Fame uses:

    “voting shall be based upon the individual's record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game.”

    So everything counts, their lifetime achievements on and off the field, along with their character and other intangibles.

    Here is an alphabetical listing of the 20 players you need to rank, from the most deserving HOF candidate at #1 down to #20:
    Code:
    3 Dick	Allen		1960s
    4 Ross	Barnes		1870s
    1 Bert	Blyleven	1970s
    6 Bill	Dahlen 		1890s
    8 Andre	Dawson		1980s
    4 Joe	Gordon		1940s
    4 Bobby	Grich		1970s
    5 Stan	Hack		1940s
    8 Paul	Hines		1880s
    7 Sherry Magee		1910s
    3 Mark	McGwire		1990s
    7 Minnie Minoso		1950s
    8 Dale	Murphy		1980s
    7 Tim	Raines		1980s
    5 Ron	Santo		1960s
    2 Ted	Simmons		1970s
    7 Harry	Stovey		1880s
    2 Joe	Torre		1960s
    6 Alan	Trammell	1980s
    2 Deacon White		1870s
    For myself, Blyleven, Raines, Santo and Dahlen will all be near the top of my ballot, while Murphy, Stovey, Hack and Dawson are likely to lag near the bottom. I'm still thinking it over.
    Last edited by Freakshow; 07-09-2008 at 05:36 AM. Reason: added positions
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  2. #2
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    --I'll be giving some weight to putting living players higher. It won't be a primary factor, but it will be considered. I'll also be looking for players who did somethig special that makes them more worthy of getting a place in the Hall of Fame than a player of similar value who doesn't have anything of particular historic noteworthyness going for them.
    --Prelininary ballot

    1) Ron Santo - only guy outside Coopertown who has an arguement for top 5 at his position and is a lock for top 10. Very hard to understand this ommission.
    2) Minnie Minoso - great player who stats suffer a little from missing the front end of his career. Even with that credit probably not this high based strictly on his playing career, but also was a pioneer for Latin Blacks. Has been a great ambassador for the game and is running out of time to attend his induction
    3) Bert Blyleven - easily the best unenshired pitcher. In fact the only pitcher I'd call a glarign ommission.
    4) Tim Raines - I'd have voted for him first ballot and was very dissapointed by his actual vote totals. A big step forward in the net election would be a good sign that the BWAA is learning to appreciate somethign other than big traditional milestone and is prepared to fairly consider recent players who clearly meet the middle range of established HoF quailifers from previous generations.
    5) Alan Trammell - ditto, although I have much less hope of seeing this actually happen for Trammell.
    6) Deacon White - Recent players have gotten badly mistreated by the voters, but no obvious Hall of Famer has been overlooked longer than White. The first generation of stars is badly underrepresented. White was one of the biggest of the 1870s and the best career of those not already enshirned (2nd only to Anson amoung original 1871 guys).
    7) Bill Dahlen
    8) Paul Hines
    9) Ted Simmons
    10) Ross Barnes
    11) Joe Torre
    12) Dick Allen
    13) Sherry Magee
    14) Bobby Grich
    15) Joe Gordon
    16) Andre Dawson
    17) Dale Murphy
    18) Stan Hack
    19) Mark McGwire (ask me again and a couple years and I'm sure he'd be higher
    20) Harry Stovey
    Last edited by leecemark; 07-16-2008 at 10:50 AM.

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    Here's my preliminary attempt:

    1. Dick Allen
    2. Ron Santo
    3. Bert Blyleven
    4. Tim Raines
    5. Bill Dahlen
    6. Paul Hines
    7. Minnie Minoso
    8. Alan Trammell
    9. Ted Simmons
    10. Sherry Magee
    11. Bobby Grich
    12. Ross Barnes
    13. Joe Torre
    14. Deacon White
    15. Joe Gordon
    16. Harry Stovey
    17. Stan Hack
    18. Dale Murphy
    19. Mark McGwire
    20. Andre Dawson
    Last edited by Erik Bedard; 07-11-2008 at 04:57 AM.

  4. #4
    My rankings and reasons for each:

    1. Ron Santo--The best eligible player not in the HOF. 6th or 7th at worst at his position. The fact that he has not been elected to this point is a travesty.

    2. Bert Blyleven--The best pitcher not in the HOF and possibly a top 40 pitcher all time. Only him and Quisenberry are clear omissions at this position.

    3. Tim Raines--The guy could hit, run, had plate discipline. The fact of the matter is that his best years were spent on a team no one was watching and his defense was good but never among the best. I'm hoping he is elected in the next 2-3 years.

    4. Bill Dahlen--The best at his position not in the HOF and a major omission. Possibly in the top 10 at his positon all time.

    5. Paul Hines--The best out fielder not in the HOF. A major omission from a period that often gets overlooked.

    6. Minnie Minoso--An embassador for the game and an excellent player who is clearly over the line for me.

    7. Ted Simmons--One of the best catchers of the past 40 years. I'm hoping the VC does better than the BBWAA did with this candidate but I'm not holding my breath.

    8. Dick Allen--One of the best talents not in the HOF. His attitude prevents him from being ranked higher for me.

    9. Ross Barnes--A fielding wiz in an era where there were no gloves and a player with one of the highest peaks in the history of the game. The best of the 1st generation of stars.

    10. Mark McGwire--A guy who struck out a lot, had several miserable years, then discovered a drug that rejuvenated his power but was not illegal to use in the MLB at the time. It's time to recognize the fact that McGwire had enough impressive seasons and compiled enough home runs to make it into an elite club and stop punishing him for something he did openly and made no attempt to hide that the press was more than happy to ignore at the time he was setting home run records. Minus the steroid scandal, McGwire reminds me of Kiner and Killebrew. EDIT: I have moved McGwire up to #10 after taking into consideration his high OPS+.

    11. Joe Gordon--An excellent fielder at a defensive position and a player with an excellent peak. The brevity of his career prevents him from ranking higher.

    12. Sherry Magee--A guy blessed with speed and power. If only his career was 20 years later...

    13. Alan Trammell--I rank him just below Dahlen at his position. The fact that he gets almost no attention is a major travesty. Trammell and Whitaker just may be the greatest mid field battery of all time.

    14. Stan Hack--#1 at his position in the 30s and early 40s. That alone is enough for his inclusion.

    15. Deacon White--His value comes as a hitter who hit for average, for his longevity and continued performance into his 30s, and that played two defensive positions. I have Bennett ranked significantly higher than him at catcher.

    16. Joe Torre--As a player, he was very good. It is his managerial career that puts him ahead of the remaining 4 for me.

    17. Harry Stovey--Someone with power and speed. That gives him a slight edge on Dawson, and Murphy. His career was on the short side which prevents him from ranking higher for me.

    18. Andre Dawson--A great fielder and someone who's career was hampered by playing his best years in Montreal. Someone just over the line for me.

    19. Bobby Grich--A six time all star and a 4 time gold glove winner. Great at his position, but outside of my HOF bracket. I can see him firmly in the gray area, however.

    20. Dale Murphy--He was great at a time when his team stunk. Unfortunately, he held on too long and ended his career with 6 miserable seasons and that is what he is consistently remembered for. Had he retired in 1987, he'd fare better for me. As it stands, I rank him well outside of the top 20, but apparently am in the minority.
    Last edited by jjpm74; 07-13-2008 at 03:35 PM.

  5. #5
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    1. Bert Blyleven
    2. Ron Santo
    3. Tim Raines
    4. Dick Allen
    5. Ted Simmons
    6. Alan Trammell
    7. Minnie Minoso
    .................................
    8. Bobby Grich
    9. Deacon White
    10. Paul Hines
    11. Sherry Magee
    12. Ross Barnes
    13. Bill Dahlen
    14. Stan Hack
    .................................
    15. Harry Stovey
    16. Andre Dawson
    17. Joe Gordon
    18. Dale Murphy
    ..................................
    19. Joe Torre
    20. Mark McGwire
    Last edited by BlueBlood; 07-11-2008 at 12:47 AM.
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    1. Ron Santo
    2. Bert Blyleven
    3. Dick Allen
    4. Tim Raines
    5. Bill Dahlen
    6. Bobby Grich
    7. Alan Trammell
    8. Minnie Minoso
    9. Mark McGwire
    10. Deacon White
    11. Joe Gordon
    12. Paul Hines
    13. Sherry Magee
    14. Ted Simmons
    15. Stan Hack
    16. Harry Stovey
    17. Andre Dawson
    18. Joe Torre
    19. Dale Murphy
    20. Ross Barnes
    Last edited by Brad Harris; 07-11-2008 at 06:11 AM.
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    1. Blyleven
    2. Santo
    3. Allen
    4. Dahlen
    5. White
    6. Magee
    7. Hack
    8. Hines
    9. Raines
    10. Stovey
    11. Minoso
    12. Simmons
    13. Gordon
    14. Grich
    15. McGwire
    16. Trammell
    17. Dawson
    18. Murphy
    19. Barnes
    20. Torre (solely as a player)

    I would have had to work quite hard on this if not for the SOC project, for which I had done basically the same thing.
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    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #8
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    1. Santo
    2. Blyleven
    3. Allen
    4. Raines
    5. Dahlen
    6. Minoso
    7. Grich
    8. White
    9. Magee
    10. Simmons
    11. Gordon
    12. Trammell
    13. Torre
    14. Hines
    15. Barnes
    16. Murphy
    17. Dawson
    18. Stovey
    19. Hack
    20. McGwire
    Last edited by Windy City Fan; 07-19-2008 at 08:12 AM.
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  9. #9
    1. Ross Barnes
    2. Mark McGwire
    3. Harry Stovey
    4. Dick Allen
    5. Deacon White
    6. Sherry Magee
    7. Ron Santo
    8. Bert Blyleven
    9. Dale Murphy
    10. Paul Hines
    11. Minnie Minoso
    12. Ted Simmons
    13. Andre Dawson
    14. Stan Hack
    15. Joe Torre
    16. Joe Gordon
    17. Bill Dahlen
    18. Tim Raines
    19. Alan Trammell
    20. Bobby Grich

  10. #10
    "Loose groupings for now" - I like that

    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    20. Torre (solely as a player)
    I went back and forth and voted for Torre in rounds one and three.
    Yes, as leecemark and Jim jointly suggest, the difference may be as great as number one to number twenty at this stage.

  11. #11
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    Yes, how to handle Joe Torre's case? If you think his primary contribution is as a manager, then he shouldn't even be considered here. The intent of this project is that we consider the whole career, not just as a player.

    Here's my take. I generally don't give managers a lot of credit for anything. You win with players. That being said, there are a handful of managers in history who were exceptional, who did make their teams better. This was easier in the days of Frank Selee when the field manager also had a significant role in player procurement and scouting. But I digress.

    With Torre, I don't give him big credit as a manager. Other of his contemporary managers could've done what he did with that talent. Nice job, but Torre's playing career did far more to make his teams win. And it was a hall of fame quality career. He'll be in the top half of my ballot.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    I would have had to work quite hard on this if not for the SOC project, for which I had done basically the same thing.
    Yes, the Suburbs of Cooperstown project is one I'm referencing as well. Here is where each of the 20 were drafted in that project:
    Code:
    Bert	Blyleven  1
    Bill	Dahlen 	  2
    Dick	Allen	  3
    Ron	Santo	  4
    Tim	Raines	  5
    Alan	Trammell  6
    Deacon	White	  7
    Mark	McGwire	  8
    Bobby	Grich	  9
    Ted	Simmons	 13
    Paul	Hines	 14
    Joe	Torre	 16
    Minnie	Minoso	 26
    Sherry	Magee	 28
    Joe	Gordon	 37
    Stan	Hack	 38
    Andre	Dawson	 39
    Harry	Stovey	 42
    Ross	Barnes	 51
    Dale	Murphy	 65
    Rember that wasn't strictly a draft in order of HOF deservedness. We were building teams in that draft, so position scarcity played a major role in where players were drafted.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    Code:
    . . .
    Harry	Stovey	 42
    Ross	Barnes	 51
    Dale	Murphy	 65 [60th major leaguer drafted, given 5 Negro Leaguers]
    Remember that wasn't strictly a draft in order of HOF deservedness. We were building teams in that draft, so position scarcity played a major role in where players were drafted.
    Three catchers and three shortstops in six of the empty spaces through #22: Bill Freehan, Charlie Bennett, and "Negro Leaguers" Trouppe, Beckwith, Lundy, Moore.

    We were also asked to try and ensure that the top ten at eight fielding positions plus the top forty pitchers (sum=120) would be in the first 140 selections, the "inner suburbs". So in my interpretation we should do some maneuvering: if X and Y clearly belong, draft Y who might be overlooked rather than X who will certainly be taken. For me in round four (#34), Y=Hardy Richardson and X=Ross Barnes.

    Yet I don't see any confirmation of our judgment in the fact that practically all of the Top 20 were in the Top 40 there. Participants in that draft project are about one-third of the voters here.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 07-09-2008 at 05:10 PM.

  14. #14
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    Another thing we always check is Bill James' positional rankings. Here's an approximate chronological arrangement:
    Code:
    Ross	Barnes	 ---
    Deacon	White	 #76
    Paul	Hines	 #53
    Harry	Stovey	 #39
    Bill	Dahlen 	 #21
    Sherry	Magee	 #21
    Joe	Gordon	 #16
    Stan	Hack	  #9
    Minnie	Minoso	 #10
    Dick	Allen	 #15
    Ron	Santo	  #6
    Joe	Torre	 #11
    Bert	Blyleven #14
    Bobby	Grich	 #12
    Ted	Simmons	 #10
    Andre	Dawson	 #19
    Dale	Murphy	 #12
    Alan	Trammell  #9
    Mark	McGwire	  #3
    Tim	Raines	  #8
    The timeline is in strong evidence here. James' rankings are increasingly problematical before 1920 and next to useless before 1893.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  15. #15
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    Two years ago we did a little project called The Hall of Corrections, electing the top 34 non-HOFers inclding Negro leaguers) over the course of 13 elections. Here's how our top 20 ranked in that project:
    Code:
    Ron	Santo	 1
    Bert	Blyleven 2
    Dick	Allen	 3
    Minnie	Minoso	 4
    Sherry	Magee	 6
    Bill	Dahlen 	 7
    Alan	Trammell 8
    Bobby	Grich	 9
    Ted	Simmons	10
    Joe	Gordon	11
    Dale	Murphy	13
    Andre	Dawson	15
    Joe	Torre	16
    Paul	Hines	17
    Deacon	White	20
    Stan	Hack	22
    Harry	Stovey	26
    Ross	Barnes	35
    Mark	McGwire	ne
    Tim	Raines	ne
    McGwire and Raines were not eligible for the HOF at that time. Barnes was the top runnerup in the final election. Filling in some of the blanks, #5 was Gossage, newly elected to the Hall; #12 was Albert Belle; #14 was Keith Hernandez. Negro leaguers Beckwith (#28) and Johnson (#31) were also listed.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    Another thing we always check is Bill James' positional rankings. Here's an approximate chronological arrangement:
    Code:
    Ross	Barnes	 ---
    Deacon	White	 #76
    Paul	Hines	 #53
    Harry	Stovey	 #39
    Bill	Dahlen 	 #21
    Sherry	Magee	 #21
    Joe	Gordon	 #16
    Stan	Hack	  #9
    Minnie	Minoso	 #10
    Dick	Allen	 #15
    Ron	Santo	  #6
    Joe	Torre	 #11
    Bert	Blyleven #14
    Bobby	Grich	 #12
    Ted	Simmons	 #10
    Andre	Dawson	 #19
    Dale	Murphy	 #12
    Alan	Trammell  #9
    Mark	McGwire	  #3
    Tim	Raines	  #8
    The timeline is in strong evidence here. James' rankings are increasingly problematical before 1920 and next to useless before 1893.
    I'm not sure how James would handle McGwire today. Mcgwire's #3 comes after his 2000 season. That is before his horrific 2001 season and before the whole PEDs scandal. What doesn't help is that James gives no reason why he ranked McGwire at #3 instead writing the following fluff:

    My seven-year old son's favorite player wife... about 55% of McGwire's career value is accounted for by his home runs, a high figure, but not as high as players like Dave Kingman and Steve Balboni. McGwire does do some things well, other than hit home runs.
    Not much thought put into that statement. Also not much thought put into any player who played during baseball's first 70 years with a heavy emphasis placed on the past 30 or so years. I'm not ready to consider James' rankings seriously given his biases.

  17. #17
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    The 500 Player Pyramid

    We did a project three summers ago called The 500 Player Pyramid, which is no longer archived on this site. The aim was to rate the top 500 players from 1 to 10. The project ground down as it progressed and we never did finish the final round (sorry, Mark). We did come up with a good ranking of 371 players, which I'm posting here.

    Basically, a rating of 6- or higher puts you in the top 100. A 4- or better is top 200. The HOF line is around 3 or 3-. Our top 20 were rated like this:
    Code:
    Ross	Barnes	 3
    Deacon	White	 3
    Paul	Hines	 3
    Harry	Stovey	 3-
    Bill	Dahlen 	 4
    Sherry	Magee	 3+
    Joe	Gordon	 4
    Stan	Hack	 3
    Minnie	Minoso	 4+
    Dick	Allen	 4
    Ron	Santo	 5
    Joe	Torre	 4
    Bert	Blyleven 4+
    Bobby	Grich	 4+
    Ted	Simmons	 4
    Andre	Dawson	 5-
    Dale	Murphy	 5-
    Alan	Trammell 4
    Mark	McGwire	 5
    Tim	Raines	 5+
    ===========================
    The 500 Player Pyramid

    We’re taking the top 500 players of all time and ranking them from 1 to 10. These are the top 371 players of all time, which we determined in the first nine rounds:
    Code:
    THE TOP 371 PLAYERS IN BASEBALL HISTORY 
    
    Pitchers (101) 
    10 Johnson W*
    9 Young C*
    9 Grove*
    9 Alexander*
    9 Clemens
    9 Mathewson*
    8 Spahn*
    8 Seaver*
    8 Maddux
    8 Paige*(n)
    8 Johnson R
    8- Carlton*
    7+ Feller*
    7+ Gibson B*
    7 Nichols*
    7 Hubbell*
    7 Koufax*
    7 Palmer*
    7 Ford*
    7- Martinez P
    6+ Marichal*
    6 Brown*
    6 Williams J*(n)
    6 Walsh*
    6 Ryan*
    6- Roberts*
    6- Perry G*
    5 Clarkson*#
    5 Wilhelm*
    5 Plank*
    5 Jenkins*
    5 Niekro P*
    5 Keefe*#
    5 Rogan*(n)
    5 Vance*
    5- Dean*
    4+ Blyleven
    4+ Eckersley*
    4+ Glavine
    4+ Gossage*
    4+ Coveleski*
    4 Newhouser*
    4 Radbourn*#
    4 Rusie*#
    4 McGinnity*
    4 Sutton D*
    4 Wynn E*
    4 Drysdale*
    4 Fingers*
    4- Waddell*
    4- Lyons*
    3+ Faber*
    3+ Rivera M
    3+ Sutter
    3+ Lemon B*
    3+ Bunning*
    3+ Mays C
    3 Galvin*#
    3 Joss*
    3 Brown K
    3 Ferrell W
    3 Ruffing*
    3 Mussina
    3 Rixey*
    3 Foster W*(n)
    3 Tiant
    3 Schilling
    3 Welch M*
    3 Caruthers #
    3 John T
    3 Day L*(n)
    3 Hunter*
    3- Hoffman T
    3- Kaat
    3- Smith Lee
    3- Brown Ray*(n)
    3- Smith H*(n)
    2+ Griffith C*#
    2+ Smoltz J
    2+ Spalding A*#
    2 Foster Ru*(n)
    2 Gomez L*
    2 Grimes B*
    2 Morris J
    2 Guidry R
    2 Quisenberry D
    2 Bridges T
    2 Pennock H*
    2 Mullane T #
    2 Redding D(n)
    2 Walters B
    2 Gooden D
    2 Cicotte E
    2 Hershiser O
    2- Bender C*
    2- Chesbro J*
    2- Hoyt W*
    2- Luque D
    2- Willis V*
    2- McCormick J #
    2- Lyle S
    Code:
    Catchers (27)
    9- Gibson J*(n)
    8+ Bench*
    8+ Berra*
    7 Cochrane*
    7- Piazza
    7- Campanella*
    7- Rodriguez I
    6 Ewing*#
    6 Dickey*
    6- Hartnett*
    5+ Fisk*
    5+ Carter G*
    4 Santop*(n)
    4 Torre
    4 Simmons T
    3+ Mackey*(n)
    3 Freehan
    3 White Dea #
    3 Munson
    3 Bresnahan*
    3- Lombardi*
    2+ Bennett C #
    2 Howard E
    2 McVey C #
    2 Schang W
    2 Parrish Lan
    2- Schalk R*
    
    First Base (38) 
    10 Gehrig*
    9 Foxx*
    7+ Greenberg*
    7 Anson*#
    7 Brouthers*#
    6+ Thomas F
    6+ Mize*
    6+ McCovey*
    6 Murray*
    6 Leonard B*(n)
    6 Bagwell
    6 Killebrew*
    5 Sisler*
    5 McGwire
    5 Palmeiro
    5 Connor*#
    5- Suttles(n)
    4 Allen
    4 Perez*
    4 Terry*
    4- Cepeda*
    3+ McGriff
    3+ Hernandez K
    3- Mattingly
    2+ Cash N
    2+ Clark W
    2+ Start J #
    2 Beckley J*#
    2 Pujols A
    2 Thome J
    2 Chance F*
    2 Garvey S
    2 Bottomley J*
    2 Hodges G
    2 Vernon M
    2- Galarraga A
    2- Grace M
    2- Helton T
    
    Second Base (29) 
    9+ Hornsby*
    9 Collins E*
    9- Lajoie*
    8+ Morgan*
    7+ Robinson J*
    7 Gehringer*
    6+ Carew*
    6- Frisch*
    6- Sandberg*
    5 Alomar
    5 Biggio
    4+ Grich
    4 Whitaker
    4 Gordon
    4 Doerr*
    4- Herman Bi*
    3+ Fox N*
    3 McPhee*#
    3 Richardson H #
    3 Barnes #
    3 Randolph
    2+ Kent J
    2+ Lazzeri T*
    2+ Childs C #
    2+ Grant F*(n)#
    2 Doyle L
    2 Mazeroski B*
    2 Schoendienst R*
    2 Evers J*
    
    Third Base (31) 
    9 Schmidt*
    8 Mathews*
    8 Brett*
    7 Boggs*
    5 Baker F*
    5 Santo
    5 Molitor*
    5 Robinson Br*
    4 Dandridge*(n)
    4 Traynor*
    4- Collins J*
    4- Boyer K
    3 Evans Da
    3 Hack
    3 Nettles
    3 Martinez E
    3 Jones Chi
    3- Wilson Ju*(n)
    3- Groh
    3- Beckwith(n)
    2+ Sutton E #
    2 Cey R
    2 Ventura R
    2 Williams Ma
    2 Rolen S
    2 Leach To
    2 Johnson Ju*(n)
    2 Rosen A
    2 Bando S
    2 Bell Bu
    2- Williamson E #
    
    Shortstop (37) 
    10 Wagner*
    8 Rodriguez A
    8 Lloyd*(n)
    8- Ripken*
    7 Vaughan*
    7 Banks*
    6 Yount*
    6- Cronin*
    5 Appling*
    5 Davis G*#
    5 Smith O*
    5- Larkin B
    4+ Wells W*(n)
    4 Trammell
    4 Boudreau*
    4 Dahlen #
    4 Reese*
    4 Ward J*#
    3+ Aparicio*
    3 Jeter
    3 Wright Ge*#
    3 Jennings*#
    3 Sewell J*
    3 Wallace*
    3 Glasscock #
    2+ Rizzuto P*
    2+ Johnson HR(n)
    2 Maranville R*
    2 Stephens V
    2 Concepcion D
    2 Garciaparra N
    2 Bancroft D*
    2 Pearce D #
    2 Tinker J*
    2 Vizquel O
    2- Lundy D(n)
    2- Tejada M
    
    Left Field (31) 
    10 Williams T*
    10 Bonds Ba
    9+ Musial*
    8 Henderson*
    8- Yastrzemski*
    7 Delahanty*#
    6 Rose
    6 Stearnes*(n)
    6 Simmons A*
    5+ Stargell*
    5+ Raines
    5 Williams Bi*
    5 Kiner*
    5- Medwick*
    5- Burkett*#
    4+ Minoso
    4+ Goslin*
    4+ Clarke F*
    4 O’Rourke*#
    4 Brock*
    4- Wheat*
    3+ Magee S
    3 Kelley J*#
    3 Belle A
    3 Irvin*(n)
    3 Rice J
    3- Stovey H #
    2+ Sheckard J
    2 Johnson Bob
    2 Manush H*
    2- Guerrero P
    
    Center Field (39) 
    10+ Cobb*
    10 Mays W*
    10- Mantle*
    9+ Speaker*
    9 DiMaggio J*
    8+ Charleston*(n)
    8 Griffey
    6+ Snider*
    6 Bell C*(n)
    6 Hamilton*#
    5- Doby*
    5- Dawson
    5- Murphy Dal
    4+ Puckett*
    4 Ashburn*
    4 Wynn J
    4 Averill*
    3+ Van Haltren #
    3+ Roush*
    3+ Carey*
    3 Duffy*#
    3 Hines #
    3 Gore #
    3 Hill P*(n)
    3- Lynn
    2+ Williams Be
    2+ Wilson H*
    2 Ryan J #
    2 Berger W
    2 Edmonds J
    2 Pinson V
    2 Pike L #
    2 Browning P #
    2 McGee W
    2- Combs E*
    2- Davis W
    2- Jones An
    2- Oliver A
    2- Waner L*
    
    Right Field (38) 
    10+ Ruth*
    10- Aaron*
    9- Robinson F*
    8 Ott*
    8- Gwynn*
    7+ Clemente*
    7 Kaline*
    7 Crawford*
    7- Jackson R*
    6 Waner P*
    6 Jackson J
    6- Heilmann*
    5+ Dihigo*(n)
    5+ Winfield*
    5+ Torriente*(n)
    5 Sosa
    4 Ramirez M
    4 Kelly K*#
    4 Sheffield
    4 Keeler*
    4 Evans Dw
    4 Slaughter*
    4- Thompson S*#
    3 Bonds Bo
    3 Flick*
    3- Oliva
    3- Smith Reg
    3- Klein*
    3- Parker D
    2+ Walker L
    2+ Staub R
    2+ Suzuki I
    2 Cuyler K*
    2 Rice S*
    2 Guerrero V
    2 Cravath G
    2 Youngs R*
    2- Hooper H*
    * = member of the Cooperstown hall
    (n) = primarily Negro league player
    # = primarily 19th century player

    See the thread, “The 500 Player Pyramid – Tier 9: The 2’s” for full results of the “2’s” voting.

    RULES

    We’ve decided on the following structure:

    10 10s
    15 9s
    20 8s
    25 7s
    30 6s (due to a tie, this is actually 31)
    40 5s (reduced to 39)
    55 4s (due to ties, reduced to 54)
    75 3s
    100 2s (due to ties, this is actually 102)
    130 1s (now planned for 129)

    We'll conduct voting one level at a time, starting with the 10's down to the 1's.

    Because the upper levels are well-trod ground for most of us, we did the first six rounds on a semi-monthly basis, with ballots due on the 15th and 30th of each month, March through May. We'll go at a slower pace now through the summer months, going to monthly elections for the last four elections, finishing up in September.

    To try and eliminate ties, the top 20% in each level will be specified with a + sign and your bottom 20% with a minus sign. For example, for the first election (10 10's), your top two players will be specified as 10+, the next six will be plain old 10's and the last two you will give 10-. This expresses some intensity to your rankings without having to go through the trouble of absolute rankings. Because of ties at the bottom of the last round, the 10th election (129 1's) will have 25 guys rated 1+, 78 rated 1, and 26 rated 1-.

    Eligible are all players in MLB and Negro leagues 1871 to 2005. Players' activity in the minors or foreign leagues should be considered when ascertaining their value. Players should be rated based upon their value contributed to their team's quest for a championship. Off-field behavior is relevant only to the extent that it relates to the teams' fortunes. Intangibles such as leadership should be considered, but player-managers should not have their contribution as managers included in their value. Issues of time-lining, such as how to account for different schedule lengths and levels of play are up to the individual voter to decide and should be a topic of the discussions.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    I'm not sure how James would handle McGwire today. Mcgwire's #3 comes after his 2000 season. That is before his horrific 2001 season and before the whole PEDs scandal. What doesn't help is that James gives no reason why he ranked McGwire at #3 instead writing the following fluff:

    My seven-year old son's favorite player wife... about 55% of McGwire's career value is accounted for by his home runs, a high figure, but not as high as players like Dave Kingman and Steve Balboni. McGwire does do some things well, other than hit home runs.


    Not much thought put into that statement.
    Although it's very deep and thought provoking...compared to his Don Mattingly explaination.

    I don't understand why he does that.

  19. #19

    This crowd, partly ranked in the Hall of Merit

    The Hall of Merit has elected 57 players not in the Hall of Fame and it has turned thumbs down so far to 57 Hall of Fame players. After catching up to the present last year, the group incompletely ranked its own 57. Nineteen of our Top 20 are among them, all but Dale Murphy.

    Here are the four subrankings completed by the Hall of Merit.
    I have highlighted our Top 20 (19 players) simply.

    Twelve of the Hall of Merit members not in Cooperstown are ineligible there pending reinstatement by MLB (2), reconsideraton of the Negro Leagues (6), or recognition of basaeball before 1876 (4). We considered only the late four and one advanced to this finale.

    Not eligible (12)
    Pete Rose
    Grant Johnson
    Ross Barnes
    Joe Jackson
    Cal McVey
    John Beckwith
    Dickey Pearce
    Dobie Moore
    Quincy Trouppe
    Lip Pike
    Dick Lundy
    Alejandro Oms

    Twenty-one of the HOMers are eligible and debuted in the major leagues before 1943. In Cooperstown they are now outside the jurisdiction of the living Hall of Fame members, to be considered periodically by a new veterans committee that meets in person (to be appointed).

    We have seven of those 21, biased in favor of the more recent.

    Eligible major league players, debut before 1943 (21)
    Bill Dahlen
    Deacon White
    Paul Hines

    Jack Glasscock
    George Gore
    Joe Start
    Ezra Sutton
    Heinie Groh
    Hardy Richardson
    Bob Caruthers
    Charlie Bennett
    Sherry Magee
    Stan Hack
    Joe Gordon

    Jimmy Sheckard
    Charlie Keller
    Harry Stovey
    Cupid Childs
    Wes Ferrell
    Charley Jones
    Pete Browning

    Hack, Gordon, Keller, and Ferrell (top to bottom) stick out chronologically. They are all more than one baseball generation younger than Heinie Groh (1912 debut) whose last good season was 1921, and the last of them, Charlie Keller was a pinch-hitter when Minnie Minoso was a rookie (1951).

    The remaining 24 HOMers not in Cooperstown fall in two groups of 12, one under jurisdiction of the living Hall of Famers, periodic vote by mail, and one under BBWAA jurisdiction, annual vote by mail.

    Debut after 1942, no longer under BBWAA jurisdiction (12)
    Bobby Grich
    Ron Santo
    Dick Allen
    Ted Simmons

    Darrell Evans
    Joe Torre
    Minnie Minoso

    Bill Freehan
    Billy Pierce
    Jimmy Wynn
    Graig Nettles
    Ken Boyer

    Under BBWAA jurisdiction (12)
    Bert Blyleven
    Tim Raines
    Mark McGwire
    Alan Trammell

    Lou Whitaker
    Will Clark
    Keith Hernandez
    Dwight Evans
    Dave Stieb
    Bret Saberhagen
    Andre Dawson
    Willie Randolph

    plus Dale Murphy, not in the Hall of Merit

  20. #20
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    How does Win Shares see these 20 candidates? Here's an approximate ranking, giving equal weight to the career total and the top 3 years, with all numbers adjusted to a 162-game schedule:
    Code:
    Bill	Dahlen 	 (449: 39-35-29)
    Tim	Raines	 (406: 36-34-32)
    Sherry	Magee	 (374: 40-38-33)
    Dick	Allen	 (344: 42-41-35)
    Bert	Blyleven (346: 29-23-23)
    Paul	Hines	
    Deacon	White	
    Mark	McGwire	 (349: 41-30-30)
    Ron	Santo	 (326: 38-36-32)
    Joe	Torre	 (316: 41-29-28)
    Ted	Simmons	 (321: 30-28-28)
    Andre	Dawson	 (353: 36-29-28)
    Ross	Barnes	
    Harry	Stovey	
    Minnie	Minoso	 (340: 34-31-30)
    Stan	Hack	 (325: 35-32-31)
    Bobby	Grich	 (339: 32-31-30)
    Alan	Trammell (327: 35-29-29)
    Dale	Murphy	 (301: 33-32-32)
    Joe	Gordon	 (301: 32-28-27)
    --The four early players are placed conservatively. I've seen estimates that have Hines and White with more than 400 AWS. As was said, win shares was never designed to accurately rate those guys.
    --WS doesn't adjust for league quality, so players like Magee and Stovey come out lower if you do that.
    --I added two low-prime years to Minoso's career total. If you simply want his schedule-adjusted total, subtract 44.
    --Blyleven is listed as high as he is because I generally give modern pitchers a 20% boost (this is not reflected in the WS numbers shown). I believe WS underrates players like Bert because the replacement level used is too high relative to other positions.
    --Simmons and Torre also were boosted for a catcher bonus, also not reflected in the numbers above.
    --Gordon has two years of war credit.
    Last edited by Freakshow; 07-11-2008 at 05:42 AM.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  21. #21
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    How about the WARP3 view of the 20 candidates? Here's a ranking, giving equal weight to the career total and the top 3 seasons:
    Code:
    Bert	Blyleven 147.7	13.6	10.8	10.6
    Ron	Santo	 112.8	14.0	13.8	13.4
    Alan	Trammell 127.1	13.5	11.3	11.2
    Tim	Raines	 131.1	12.0	11.3	10.5
    Bobby	Grich	 123.9	11.8	11.6	11.0
    Bill	Dahlen 	 127.9	10.4	 9.5	 9.0
    Joe	Gordon	 112.1	11.5	11.1	10.6
    Dick	Allen	  99.2	13.4	11.4	10.9
    Mark	McGwire	 109.8	11.9	10.8	 9.6
    Andre	Dawson	 107.5	11.8	 9.9	 9.4
    Deacon	White	 110.1	10.6	10.1	 9.6
    Paul	Hines	 105.3	11.8	10.3	 8.9
    Stan	Hack	 100.3	10.9	10.2	 9.7
    Joe	Torre	 101.2	11.3	 9.4	 9.3
    Ross	Barnes	  71.9	14.9	12.0	11.8
    Dale	Murphy	  86.4	11.6	10.0	 9.7
    Ted	Simmons	  94.9	 8.9	 8.6	 8.3
    Minnie	Minoso	  89.0	10.5	 8.6	 8.0
    Sherry	Magee	  87.8	10.2	 8.5	 8.0
    Harry	Stovey	  76.6	 9.4	 9.2	 8.3
    --Just a couple adjustments to mention, otherwise the numbers are straight off the B-Pro site.
    --Minoso was again given credit for two more low-prime years. If you disagree, subtract 12 from his career total shown above.
    --Gordon, again, gets two years of war credit added to his career total.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  22. #22
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    My Ballot

    Here's how I have them ranked now. Perhaps minor revisions will come later.

    1 Blyleven
    2 Raines
    3 Santo
    4 Dahlen
    5 Minoso
    6 Torre
    7 Trammell
    8 Allen
    9 McGwire
    10 Hines
    11 White
    12 Grich
    13 Simmons
    14 Barnes
    15 Magee
    16 Gordon
    17 Dawson
    18 Hack
    19 Stovey
    20 Murphy
    Last edited by Freakshow; 07-18-2008 at 07:58 AM. Reason: Barnes-Magee switched
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  23. #23
    Join Date
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    I find myself constantly readjusting my top seven...they all have their own superb arguments for inclusion. The other thirteen are pretty easy because I can see their faults and just far over (or under) the line I have them. Really, I'm absolutely unconcerned whether Trammell ends up above Raines or Santo above Blyleven. These guys should just flat out be in the hall, no debate.
    1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

    1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
    1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
    1966 1974 1977 1978


    1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
    2013


    1996 2006

  24. #24
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    My ballot is completed. Comment on it if you'd like.

  25. #25
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    At the risk of turning this into yet another PED thread, I would ask voters to consider whether they're making McGwire a scapegoat and thereby being unfair to him in ranking him near the bottom of the 20.

    This was my take in a recent post: "Since I believe that a majority of players in the "steroids era" were using PEDs, it is unfair to make examples of the few who've been outed."

    And later: "Players were not the ones in positions of power to effectively control the proliferation of PEDs in baseball."
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

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