Box versus No Box

[Mark H]

YOU seem to be on a personal head-hunt for PCR and Steve in particular.

Perhaps it goes back to the spat Yeager and Nyman had and perhaps MBS connects Steve with Nyman. If so, he could relax a little. While very bright everyone knows, including himself, that Nyman can be a jerk sometimes and I should add a very giving person at other times. There is no business relationship between the two of them, Steve's ideas are a combination of many different people along with his own research and experimentation. Now, if someone doesn't care for Paul or Steve personally and or doesn't care for their ideas, I have no problem with them criticizing either one of them or their ideas. Just make sure you have their position correct when you criticize it. This was my heartburn with the two banned ones. I viewed them as being intentionally intellectually dishonest. I criticize Epstein and Mankin but I made sure I was very familiar with their work first. If I comment on Yeager, for now, it's going to be a comment on a particular post or sentence someone made on here. If I study Yeager and decide I disagree with something he says (after all what's being posted on here may be a poor representation of what he teaches, I wouldn't know) that won't mean I think he's a bad person nor do I think poorly of Epstein or Mankin. Mankin certainly seems be the finest of gentlemen. At times, when Epstein or Mankin was being mischaracterized I have come to their defense. Intellectual honesty requires it.

[Mark H]

Good stuff being discussed here.

The following, very unambiguous section is from The Mike Schmidt Study - Youth version only. Emphasis is mine. How does this relate to and resolve with maintaining the box. It was obviously a very strong feeling for Mr. Schmidt.


"It is very important to know that the hands and wrists start the bat forward from the launching position. You may have the urge to pull the bat forward with your shoulders by opening up the front side of your body—but don't do it. Use the hands and wrists first. The hands begin twisting the bat from the launching position. Let me say this again because it is very important. The hands are what start the bat forward from the launching position. The bat is not pulled forward by the momentum
of the stride, or pulled forward with extended arms. The bat is twisted forward into the swing by the strength of the hands and wrists. In other words, the hands start the bat."

Doesn't this, at the very least, say that the swing needs to be started in such a way that the forces the bat places on the hands and wrists would cause a HOF hitter to write the above?

Thing is, you can find a HOF, guru or credentialed expert on any side of the argument you wish to take. What then?

[Mark H]

How is it people talk about what each instructor really means about hitting yet they openly say they have never watched the dvd's or researched these said instructor's?

Exactly. Or worse, they have and yet mischaracterize it.

[Hard Liner]

There are many actions that occur simultaneously,...

Thanks for the reply and there is much of interest in it. Much to explore, too, but we both know how detailed sequences go, so I'll leave it here, for now.

[DunninLA]

Nice thread.

As a novice working with my own and other kids, it has not been a very useful term, and TRIANGLE is actually closer to what I see in all the clips everyone posts, especially for those hitters like Griffey who often almost bar out the lead arm when they bring the hands back. But it's not exactly like a triangle either, as its shape seems to morph from setup through launch a little. Among the terms that are useful -- athletic posture, hands back, hips first, connection, etc., neither box nor triangle really does much.

[Hard Liner]

Thing is, you can find a HOF, guru or credentialed expert on any side of the argument you wish to take. What then?

You're preachin' to the choir on that point.

Being skeptical of elite hitters conclusions that are based on their feel is understandable, but I think it too often gets rolled into being skeptical of anything they have to say, period. The criticism, sometimes condescending, of the pros use of the term swing down, for instance, is mostly uncalled for, imo. The feeling that's required to end up with what later gets computer analyzed as a good swing is what I'm interested in.

Schmidt strongly, unambiguously felt a powerful sensation in his hands and wrists early in the swing. I can't help but have some interest in that. Heck, maybe it was an editorial error, but, barring something like that, I'm taking his word on what he felt.

[Stealth]

Exactly. Or worse, they have and yet mischaracterize it.

Mark H - does this mean you will watch Yeager dvd's now so you can participate with an open mind. Invest in the time please..............

[Mark H]

You're preachin' to the choir on that point.

Being skeptical of elite hitters conclusions that are based on their feel is understandable, but I think it too often gets rolled into being skeptical of anything they have to say, period..

I agree. Good cautionary point.

The criticism, sometimes condescending, of the pros use of the term swing down, for instance, is mostly uncalled for, imo. The feeling that's required to end up with what later gets computer analyzed as a good swing is what I'm interested in..

Feel is somewhat individual but I do agree that what an elite hitter feels is interesting and useful even as we make sure we understand reality.

Schmidt strongly, unambiguously felt a powerful sensation in his hands and wrists early in the swing. I can't help but have some interest in that. Heck, maybe it was an editorial error, but, barring something like that, I'm taking his word on what he felt.

No question in my mind that he wrote what he felt.

[Mark H]

Mark H - does this mean you will watch Yeager dvd's now so you can participate with an open mind. Invest in the time please..............

Absolutely. It's on my to do list.

[hiddengem]

HG, how often do you see Yeager? I'm interested in a comparison between hours spent with each. As I mentioned, I talk to SE on the phone often.

To this point, I have spent exactly the same amount of personal time with him in the cage, about 6-8hrs, along with numerous phone calls and emails. The main difference is I was able to walk away from Chris the first day with a solid understanding of what he teaches.

Still, I spend hours on his site watching his video library to try to assess what he means when he says ...

IMO this is a very telling statement.

[mudvnine]

Originally Posted by Stealth
Mark H - does this mean you will watch Yeager dvd's now so you can participate with an open mind. Invest in the time please..............

Absolutely. It's on my to do list.

I don't think you'll be disappointed.

But I also hope that nobody here trys to interpret your willingness to continue learning as an insult or in anyway disrespect to your current mentor. We all owe a lot to the ones who built our foundations (I know you know who mine was) and although we might not always agree on the many different concepts or styles of these many individuals, they were the ones to provide us the knowledge, understanding and desire to continue our quest.

[Jake Patterson]

But I also hope that nobody here trys to interpret your willingness to continue learning as an insult or in anyway disrespect to your current mentor. We all owe a lot to the ones who built our foundations ...

A good overall point for all of us to learn from this thread is that all of us involved in the game should respect those who have given their lives seeking truth (BM's Mantra). And all of the men mentioned in this thread have done just that.
Jake

[Bucketdad]

THIS

is the reason for that. The hips and hands are "going TOGETHER"; and the hands are obviously moving FASTER than the torso is turning, which means a muscle in the back is [contracting and] "pulling" the lead arm and a muscle in the chest is [contracting and] "pulling the rear arm [in/thru]. And if this is true, then the hands ARE moving "independent" of the shoulders.

This clearly supports, from a visual point of view, what SE advocates.
I understand that it is a homerun derby, but it seemed to work for him last night, didn't it!

BD

[CoachB25]

IMO this is a very telling statement.

HG, your comment about the amount of time I spend on SE's site trying to understand what Steve means when he says ... is in response to my poor communication abilities. In making that statement, I didn't mention that that amount of time spent is due to the hours of video on SE's site demonstrating various points. For example, SE has an entire section on Shoulders. To view the video contained in that section alone and along with all of the responses as well as the scientific literature would take a couple of weeks in itself. That is not to mention sections on various other aspects of the swing. I wanted to be sure to clarify.

[Mark H]

Absolutely. It's on my to do list.

While I'm working on that you might reassess your association with Richard. By the way, I have always participated with an open mind. I started studying Epstein and Mankin with the assumption they were wrong. I started studying Englishbey with skepticism as well. There was a time I thought Tom Guerry was a swing mechanics expert. Given the changes in my point of view over the years I think my open mind is self evident. There is little in the way of new ideas I've seen in a long time but I look forward to reading Yeager.

[justthefacts]

David while I'm here for my semiannual posting visit I have a serious question and it may sound like I'm trying to stick needles in you but I'm not.

David, you give high praise to your experience with Yaeger, i.e. that somehow he turned on some lights with respect to what you need to do to swing the bat.

I know that when I tried to help you earlier in the season you found what I had to say of little or no value.

And apparently Steve was unable help you or should I say meet your expectations.

I'm not sure the exact date that you visit Yaeger but I did see a post on another website dated June 21.

I went back and did a little research and saw that on June 21 you were hitting .275. Since then you're hitting .246 and since July 6 your hitting at a .231 clip (6 Hits/26 at-bats).

My question is exactly what did you finds so valuble with Yaeger because the numbers don't seem to translate as one would expect based upon your glowing reviews of your Yaeger visit?

[Go Cardinals]

While I'm working on that you might reassess your association with Richard.

Richard and yeager are practically the same.

[JJA]

GoCardinals,

You don't get off that easy. Richard has ALWAYS been a Dixon guy, a move from the middle guy. His "second engine" stuff was an attempt to get the hands more involved compared to what he thinks Nyman/Englishbey promote. His "second engine" epiphany NEVER talked about pushing and blocking a la Yeager. He may yet again be morphing his positions, but to equate him to Yeager - who as far as know has never advocated handle torque - is incorrect unless Richard has once again rewritten his belief system.

From what I can tell, the Richard-Yeager connection works as follows: Richard hates Steve E and Nyman, and Yeager hates Nyman, therefore Yeager and Richard have equivalent baseball beliefs. Not quite...

[jbooth]

Richard and yeager are practically the same.

Not hardly. Regarding the lower body I would say yes. As to the upper body; not EVEN close. Richard is so far off on how the upper body, arms and hands work in the swing, that it's like hearing a moron explain how to do multiplication with fractions.

[justthefacts]

... that Bryton and other fathers like him see what happens when you attempt to ask questions that a very uncomfortable for some Who post here.

I think it's a very legitimate question.

David while I'm here for my semiannual posting visit I have a serious question and it may sound like I'm trying to stick needles in you but I'm not.

David, you give high praise to your experience with Yaeger, i.e. that somehow he turned on some lights with respect to what you need to do to swing the bat.

I know that when I tried to help you earlier in the season you found what I had to say of little or no value.

And apparently Steve was unable help you or should I say meet your expectations.

I'm not sure the exact date that you visit Yaeger but I did see a post on another website dated June 21.

I went back and did a little research and saw that on June 21 you were hitting .275. Since then you're hitting .246 and since July 6 your hitting at a .231 clip (6 Hits/26 at-bats).

My question is exactly what did you finds so valuble with Yaeger because the numbers don't seem to translate as one would expect based upon your glowing reviews of your Yaeger visit?

Hiddengem raves about his experience with Yaeger yet the numbers don't reflect improvement.

And as someone (myself) who also tried to help Hiddengem and spent quite a few hours putting material together for him, I would like to know exactly what Yaeger did for him because the numbers don't seem to reflect it.

But of course as usual the "joker's" here choose ridicule possibly because of their inability to deal with real questions and issues.

I don't have a lot to contribute as far as hitting knowledge,

[BallCoach06]

... that Bryton and other fathers like him see what happens when you attempt to ask questions that a very uncomfortable for some Who post here.

I think it's a very legitimate question.



Hiddengem raves about his experience with Yaeger yet the numbers don't reflect improvement.

.

Numbers wise it might seem like a legitimate question, but anyone who has played the game knows that there are times when you are swinging the bat very well and making solid contact, but don't get hits. The opposite also holds true when you are not making good contact and not swinging it well, but the hits are falling.

The only person that can answer this question is HG, and there is the great possibility that the numbers might not show how HG feels about his swing in regards to what he understands and feels is working well for him.

[hiddengem]

David while I'm here for my semiannual posting visit I have a serious question and it may sound like I'm trying to stick needles in you but I'm not.

Sure. You trying to stick Needles in Chris's butt.

David, you give high praise to your experience with Yaeger, i.e. that somehow he turned on some lights with respect to what you need to do to swing the bat.

I know that when I tried to help you earlier in the season you found what I had to say of little or no value.

And apparently Steve was unable help you or should I say meet your expectations.

I'm not sure the exact date that you visit Yaeger but I did see a post on another website dated June 21.

I went back and did a little research and saw that on June 21 you were hitting .275. Since then you're hitting .246 and since July 6 your hitting at a .231 clip (6 Hits/26 at-bats).

My question is exactly what did you finds so valuble with Yaeger because the numbers don't seem to translate as one would expect based upon your glowing reviews of your Yaeger visit?

Just so everybody is clear..This is Paul Nyman from Setpo making these posts.

My feeling is that the only reason you came on here and did this was because you and Yeager don't get along, and you tried to throw a little dagger at me, to try and make yourself look better, and Chris look bad..speaks volumes.

Folks, we're not even looking at a months time that he's talking about here, and there is a 12 point difference from the time he stated up until now.

And there is no way you would have come on here asking me what I found so valuable with Chris if my numbers were better. No chance. By the way how many HR's have I hit since I saw Chris? How many did I have before then? Why didn't you ask me why all of a sudden I hit a bunch of HR's after I saw him?
Did you happen to look at our injury report, was I hurt? Am I playing through an injury? How would you know? This post sure didn't help your cause, and if you had any respect for the game or knew anything about it at all, you would have done this in a Private Message? Why not, alterior motives? Of course.

Chris, didn't "Turn a bunch of lights" on for me. Most of what he teaches, I knew and have been doing for years. I like Chris because I think he has the best information, and can teach it in a way thats easy to understand.

[Hard Liner]

...numbers don't seem to translate as one would expect...

You're getting into an area that makes some fans uncomfortable; namely, the number of ABs required to produce a BA number that one can be reasonably certain reflects ability. It's much larger than you think. Those numbers are misleading.

[jbooth]

...
I think it's a very legitimate question.

Hiddengem raves about his experience with Yaeger yet the numbers don't reflect improvement.

I think your question was a fair one to ask. However, A-Rod and many MLB hitters hit in ups and downs. I've seen A-Rod go 0 for 22. And, 20 to 30 AB's is not a lot of data to judge from. He may be hitting line-drive screamers for outs, or warning track fly balls for outs. The batting average is a poor measure as to whether the swing has improved or not. There's more to hitting than batting average. But, I do think your question was fair to ask in respect to whether HG feels he's swinging and hitting the ball better, regardless of the average.

[CoachB25]

justthefacts asked legitimate questions. I do agree that there are times when you really feel that you are swinging it well and the hits just aren't falling. There are also times when, for what ever reason ie injury or whatever other circumstance, you just can't seem to turn it around no matter how much you believe in what you are doing. Then, one falls in and you're off and running. Hitting is very much that way IMHO.

I think that there are other ligitimate questions not only for HG but also for most the posters that have played. For example, how long did it take to affect change in players you've coached? Is there a time frame for young athletes of which they should record and then mark progressions? When do they move on? Is this different for HG since he is a professional? How much does HG's past prevent from making changes? HG forgive me for this analogy but "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." Is this even valid for a upper echeleon player? Are these phrases such as the "box" suited for one level more than another? Well, I think you get the point.

Take care!

HG, my comment, contained in this post regarding injury, was posted without reading your last post. I think that is a typical occurance for professional players since they so often have to play injured.

BTW, I think I dated this girl: