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Thread: Historic Game Logs

  1. #101
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    Retrosheet has updated their game logs to include several more years of more detailed info for most of these players.

  2. #102
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    Cool, so maybe you should start the Ubi request line, and we can fire questions at you
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Cool, so maybe you should start the Ubi request line, and we can fire questions at you
    It'd be like our "Ask Bill Burgess" Thread!

  4. #104
    Retrosheet currently has Ruth vs. Grove:

    Code:
    Pitcher          R/L  AB   H  2B  3B  HR  BB IBB  SO HBP  SH  SF   AVG   OBP   SLG
    Lefty Grove        L  95  28   2   0   4   8   0  33   0   0   0  .295  .350  .442
    33 strikeouts in 95 AB's?

    Ubi, didn't you figure out the actual (complete) Grove vs. Ruth line is 43-134 (.320 BA) with 11 walks, 9 homeruns?

    How many times did he fan Ruth in 134 at bats? 50 something? WOW.

  5. #105
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    I'd have to look at the data to know but I do know that the box scores and recaps generally didn't do the best job detailing who got struck by whom.

  6. #106
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    I have him with at least 38 strikeouts in 149 PA.

    Edit: Retrosheet has some PBP files for 2 of Grove's seasons and while those files didn't contain any info on the 3 missing PA it did validate the data I found scanning the box scores and recaps as well as revealing two more strikeouts. So Grove struck Ruth out at least 40 times in 143 PA.
    Last edited by Ubiquitous; 02-09-2013 at 10:43 PM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    Retrosheet currently has Ruth vs. Grove:

    Code:
    Pitcher          R/L  AB   H  2B  3B  HR  BB IBB  SO HBP  SH  SF   AVG   OBP   SLG
    Lefty Grove        L  95  28   2   0   4   8   0  33   0   0   0  .295  .350  .442
    33 strikeouts in 95 AB's?

    Ubi, didn't you figure out the actual (complete) Grove vs. Ruth line is 43-134 (.320 BA) with 11 walks, 9 homeruns?

    How many times did he fan Ruth in 134 at bats? 50 something? WOW.


    Of course that doesn't include the game where Ruth suited up with the Giants and homered off Grove. No worries. Lefty vs lefty matchup, against arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Of course there will be some K's. Ruth dealt with more "specialized" relief pitching than anyone of his time, understandably. He was game-planned against and was the primary focus of opposing managers to a greater degree than anyone before or since. Strategies changed because of him. It was like trying to stop a downhill boulder, pulling out all the stops.

    9 homers is the correct number off Grove.

    According to Jenkinson:

    9/3/26 - In Philly - Fouth inning solo shot, 400 feet "Towering drive over right field fence and across 20th street."

    9/27/27 - In Philly - Sixth inning grand slam, 435 feet "Line drive deep into right center field bleachers."

    9/11/28 - In NY - Eighth inning two-run homer, 450 feet "To 40th bleacher row in right field to win."

    6/29/29 - In Philly - Fifth inning two-run homer, 450 feet "Over fence just right of center field."

    6/29/29 - In Philly - Seventh inning solo shot, 375 feet "High over right field fence near foul line."

    5/21/30 - In Philly - Eighth inning two-run homer, 470 feet "Far over right field fence and over house across 20th street."

    4/20/32 - In NY - Third inning two-run homer, 320 feet "Just over right field fence into lower bleachers."

    6/10/33 - In Philly - First inning solo shot, 450 feet "Far over right field fence and onto house across 20th street."

    6/10/33 - In Philly - Third inning two-run homer, 375 "Over right field fence into 20th street."
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 02-10-2013 at 09:49 PM.
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Of course that doesn't include the game where Ruth suited up with the Giants and homered off Grove. No worries. Lefty vs lefty matchup, against arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Of course there will be some K's. Ruth dealt with more "specialized" relief pitching than anyone of his time, understandably. He was game-planned against and was the primary focus of opposing managers to a greater degree than anyone before or since. Strategies changed because of him. It was like trying to stop a downhill boulder, pulling out all the stops.

    9 homers is the correct number off Grove.
    I know close doesn't count, not in the book.........but

    April 15, 1930, Grove pitching. Babe clears wall in deep RCF but the ball strikes speaker supports and bounds back on to the field, Babe sent back to second base.

    What are the odds, Sept.26, 1930, again same exact spot, hits speaker supports, only a double. Perkins and Rommel pitching that game.
    Ruth, Gehrig and Greenberg with the most career home runs off of Grove, nine.
    Could have put Babe in first, most career home run off of Grove, overall, Lefty did do well against Babe, Lefty one of the greatest.

    To be considered, Babe never faced Lefty intil his 12th season in baseball, 30 years old.
    Also, two lost home run in 1930, he finished with 49, could have been his 5th season with 50 or more.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 02-11-2013 at 05:02 AM.

  9. #109
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    Anything new to post here? Ubi? Are you alive?
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  10. #110
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    At this point it is all up to Retrosheet.

  11. #111
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    Well thanks for all the time you put in.
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Of course that doesn't include the game where Ruth suited up with the Giants and homered off Grove. No worries. Lefty vs lefty matchup, against arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Of course there will be some K's. Ruth dealt with more "specialized" relief pitching than anyone of his time, understandably. He was game-planned against and was the primary focus of opposing managers to a greater degree than anyone before or since. Strategies changed because of him. It was like trying to stop a downhill boulder, pulling out all the stops.

    9 homers is the correct number off Grove.

    According to Jenkinson:

    9/3/26 - In Philly - Fouth inning solo shot, 400 feet "Towering drive over right field fence and across 20th street."

    9/27/27 - In Philly - Sixth inning grand slam, 435 feet "Line drive deep into right center field bleachers."

    9/11/28 - In NY - Eighth inning two-run homer, 450 feet "To 40th bleacher row in right field to win."

    6/29/29 - In Philly - Fifth inning two-run homer, 450 feet "Over fence just right of center field."

    6/29/29 - In Philly - Seventh inning solo shot, 375 feet "High over right field fence near foul line."

    5/21/30 - In Philly - Eighth inning two-run homer, 470 feet "Far over right field fence and over house across 20th street."

    4/20/32 - In NY - Third inning two-run homer, 320 feet "Just over right field fence into lower bleachers."

    6/10/33 - In Philly - First inning solo shot, 450 feet "Far over right field fence and onto house across 20th street."

    6/10/33 - In Philly - Third inning two-run homer, 375 "Over right field fence into 20th street."
    Does anyone have Babe's actual career lines against Grove, Big Train, and others? I'd LOVE to see them! Retrosheet is clearly WAY off.

    Code:
    Pitcher          R/L  AB   H  2B  3B  HR  BB IBB  SO HBP  SH  SF   AVG   OBP   SLG
    Lefty Grove        L  95  28   2   0   4   8   0  33   0   0   0  .295  .350  .442

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Well thanks for all the time you put in.
    Agreed. Thank you both for the tons of hours you've dedicated to our little project here. If we had more researchers like you two, we'd have one hell of a lot more answers- and would have them faster!!

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    I have him with at least 38 strikeouts in 149 PA.

    So Grove struck Ruth out at least 40 times in 143 PA.
    That may be the greatest testament to Grove's "stuff" that I've ever read. And that's after reading even after reading the Kaplan biography!

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    That may be the greatest testament to Grove's "stuff" that I've ever read. And that's after reading even after reading the Kaplan biography!
    Do we know how many times Grove appeared in relief, just to pitch against Ruth.

    Poor Babe. Like the pink elephant in the room. Nobody could just let him go about his business, like all the others.
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 02-17-2013 at 01:39 AM.
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    Agreed. Thank you both for the tons of hours you've dedicated to our little project here. If we had more researchers like you two, we'd have one hell of a lot more answers- and would have them faster!!
    Hey Chris, not sure who you are speaking of, other than Ubi. Certainly can't be me. I took that excel file and had a friekin' merry-go-round, six flags style fun time with it. Any attention I put toward that was far from work. I love that kind of stuff. Just wish I was more numerically inclined, if you know what I mean. Still, I echo your sentiments toward Ubi because I know he has put in a lot of time and work. Same with SABR Matt probably, although he's been MIA for a bit.
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  17. #117
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    Should be struck out 40 times in 149 PA.


    From what I recall Grove never came in to just pitch to Ruth. That really didn't happen back then. In those days there was no such thing as a LOOGY. A LHP might get sent in there to pitch to a LH batter but he was also expected to pitch the rest of the inning or even multiple innings.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    Should be struck out 40 times in 149 PA.


    From what I recall Grove never came in to just pitch to Ruth. That really didn't happen back then. In those days there was no such thing as a LOOGY. A LHP might get sent in there to pitch to a LH batter but he was also expected to pitch the rest of the inning or even multiple innings.
    That just isn't true Ubi. It is not hero worship or out of bounds to point out, that Ruth was the most focused on hitter ever. This included managers throwing the book out the window and trying anything and everything to stop him. Here's a portion from Jenkinson's chapter on Comparative Difficulty that helps illustrate the point.

    The catch for this particular discussion is the reemergence of the "Babe Ruth Factor." Nothing was ever the same for Ruth compared to everybody else of his day, and so it was with relief pitching.

    Connie Mack was most proactive in finding ways to circumvent Ruth. As long as it was legal, Connie would try it. It was Mack who forbade his pitchers to throw Babe a fastball strike until Lefty Grove came along. And it was Connie Mack who formulated the most advanced relief pitching strategies to deal with the Bambino. Mack liked Ruth, but he felt obligated to try to stop him. By 1921, Connie was tired of losing to Ruth, so he appointed a specific man to pitch in relief against him. That man was lefty Dave Keefe, and Mack used hm to relieve his starter in the fourth inning on August 11 in Philadelphia for the sole purpose of retiring George Ruth. Babe liked Connie right back, but not as much as he liked hitting homers. So he knocked Keefe’s trademark forkball to the top of the left field bleachers, and that was the end of this particular experiment.

    In 1922 the St. Louis Browns tried a pair of tricky lefties to face Ruth in key situations. The first was Bill Bayne, whose curveball drove Ty Cobb nuts. He did okay, but the next day on May 22, Hub Pruett used his screwball to fan Babe in the tenth inning. Ruth looked so pitiful against Pruett that the Browns then used him to start against the Yankees, even though he wasn’t particularly effective against anybody else. Hub’s subsequent success against the Bambino is now legendary. Then, something really odd happened on April 22, 1923. Trailing Washington 4-3 in the ninth inning, Babe was due to face Walter Johnson. The Big Train was past his prime, but he was still one of the best. Plus, he was Walter Johnson, who backed down from no one. Nevertheless, he was yanked in favor of lefthander George Mogridge, who saved the game for Johnson. It’s not that Ruth was the only hitter to face relief pitchers during his era; it’s just that he had to do it more often than anyone else. Just as Lefty Grove eventually became a great occasional closer against all teams, he was used most often against Ruth.
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  19. #119
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    As I said, in those days pitchers weren't just sent in to pitch to one hitter and then get pulled. Relievers pitched to multiple batters and over multiple innings. Nothing in the Jenkinson excerpt disputes what I said nor does anything I said dispute what I said.

    Mack may have brought Grove in to pitch to Ruth but Grove wasn't pulled after facing Ruth. He would go on to pitch to more batters. As I said there wasn't LOOGYs back then.

    I'll also add that relief pitching back then wasn't very good as compared to the starters so it really doesn't mean much that Ruth might or might not have faced more relief pitching than any other player of that era.

    Ruth like all great home run hitters hit his home runs off of a group of pitchers that overall were below average. He, like his fellow home run hitters of time period, hit more home runs in later innings than did current generation of home run hitters.

  20. #120
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    Grove faced exactly one batter on 9/6/1926 and it was against the Yankees but he didn't face Ruth. He faced righty Lazzeri and walked him.

    On 7/3/1930 he faced 2 batters and in that appearance he did face Ruth. But he only faced two batters because he got the final two outs of the 9th inning.

    Over Grove's entire career he faced only one batter in an appearance twice. Once in 1926 as I already mentioned and once in his final season 1941. When facing Ruth the least amount of batters faced was the 2 in the game I already mentioned. At no other time did Grove square off against the Yankees and not face 3 or more batters.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    As I said, in those days pitchers weren't just sent in to pitch to one hitter and then get pulled. Relievers pitched to multiple batters and over multiple innings. Nothing in the Jenkinson excerpt disputes what I said nor does anything I said dispute what I said.

    Mack may have brought Grove in to pitch to Ruth but Grove wasn't pulled after facing Ruth. He would go on to pitch to more batters. As I said there wasn't LOOGYs back then.
    Nobody ever said they were brought in and taken right out. You're missing the point. Jenkinson has poured over game recap after game recap of each and every one of Ruth's games and he stated that Grove was used "most often against Ruth" in relief. The point isn't whether the pitcher stayed in after facing Ruth; the point is WHEN they were brought in, and it was to face Ruth. You have habit on here of playing devils advocate to the point where it becomes rather absurd. Now you're questioning Jenkinson's research? Really? I know you don't like Ruth, this is too much Ubi.

    I'll also add that relief pitching back then wasn't very good as compared to the starters so it really doesn't mean much that Ruth might or might not have faced more relief pitching than any other player of that era.
    And it's so spectacular in this era? An era where #4 starters make 12 million bucks a year. That tells us pitching is scarce.

    There were releif specialists brought in specifically to face him above any and every other hitter and he faced more specialized relievers than anyone. That might not mean anything to someone who is biased and blind, but it's pretty telling actually for all others.

    Ruth like all great home run hitters hit his home runs off of a group of pitchers that overall were below average.
    A. They were the same pitchers everyone else was facing
    B. Any amount of unbiased research, and you'll discover the he faced the utmost focus and energy from those same pitchers, compared to all others. Apart from numbers that bbref shows us, this would cause his relative numbers to raise, if we could account for it.

    He, like his fellow home run hitters of time period, hit more home runs in later innings than did current generation of home run hitters.
    Certainly the failed starters of today, who come in for specialized relief, have an impact. The point I think you're not getting, is that Ruth didn't face relief specialists compared to today, for FOR HIS TIME, it was above and beyond what anyone else faced. Everything is relative.

    Just for fun though, let's look into the late inning HR of Ruth, keeping in mind that many of the HR after the 7th inning, were off relief specialists brought in just to face him.

    CAME BEFORE THE 7TH INNING

    1919----16 of 29 HR (55.1%)
    1920----43 of 54 HR (79.6%)
    1921----40 of 59 HR (67.7%)
    1922----20 of 35 HR (57.1%)
    1923----28 of 41 HR (68.2%)
    1924----29 of 46 HR (63.0%)
    1925----15 of 25 HR (60.0%)
    1926----31 of 47 HR (65.9%)
    1927----40 of 60 HR (66.6%)
    1928----35 of 54 HR (64.8%)
    1929----28 of 46 HR (60.8%)
    1930----34 of 49 HR (69.3%)
    1931----34 of 46 HR (73.9%)
    1932----31 of 41 HR (75.6%)
    1933----24 of 34 HR (70.5%)
    1934----14 of 22 HR (63.6%)
    1935-----6 of 6 HR (100%)
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    Grove faced exactly one batter on 9/6/1926 and it was against the Yankees but he didn't face Ruth. He faced righty Lazzeri and walked him.

    On 7/3/1930 he faced 2 batters and in that appearance he did face Ruth. But he only faced two batters because he got the final two outs of the 9th inning.

    Over Grove's entire career he faced only one batter in an appearance twice. Once in 1926 as I already mentioned and once in his final season 1941. When facing Ruth the least amount of batters faced was the 2 in the game I already mentioned. At no other time did Grove square off against the Yankees and not face 3 or more batters.
    Ubi,
    Just so i'm clear (this has gotten muddled).....are you stating (unequivocally) that even Babe Ruth himself didn't regularly face specialized/platoon pitchers?


    Sultan has been stating this (also unequivocally) for years; i.e., for one...that Ruth faced specialization (before it was even a term).

  23. #123
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    It has gotten muddled. Ubi will retort with the usual back-peddle, stating how he "only said that relievers didn't come right out after facing Ruth"...which is bogus. Clearly he hasn't done the research I thought he had, and at every turn he attempts to discredit Ruth. Keep things real on here, that is all I ask. This is literally like trying to convince someone that Mickey Mantle was a switch hitter; it's that obvious.

    Just step back for a moment and try to comprehend the baseball world back then. Forget the close fences and the tiny zone of today. Just for a moment, picture a game where small ball was the norm. Then comes this guy who challenges for batting crowns while out-homering entire teams. Not just home runs....balls that fly further than anyone imagined. Yes, Babe was the most focused upon, and game-planned for, hitter ever...and if we had actual numbers for career intentional passes, he would lead everyone by a wide margin..

    “If Babe doesn’t get his chance to swing, he’ll start swinging at them [pitchers].” – Boston Herald on Ruth being intentionally passed in five straight plate appearances 6/18/18

    That was 1918. Imagine how much worse things got for him later on.

    Here's some further education for those interested.

    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...891#post651891

    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...894#post651894

    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...915#post651915
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 02-17-2013 at 08:53 PM.
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  24. #124
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    Have fun guys. See you in a year or so.

  25. #125
    Randy,
    I was specifically thanking you and Ubi (don't know his real name!)

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