Epstein Drills

[dhardy123]

Hi All,

I received the DVD and CD and book from Mike Epstein. I want to start working on some of the drills this week. Are there any improvements or changes that I should make before I begin teaching them?

TIA

[Mark H]

Probably a CallyJr and JBooth question. My recommendation would be more sweeping than you are looking for.

[hiddengem]

I have a teamate...a first rounder, who went to see Epstein this offseason. Probably spent a good 2-3 weeks, flying out to see him for extended periods of time. He's had some good spurts, but overall I wouldn't say it was what he was hoping for. I don't know anything about Epstein..but he does alot of drills where it really looks like he's collapsing on his backside, and the good fastball seems to hurt him most of the time. He deffinetly tends to spin on his back side too much.

[Jake Patterson]

Shouldn't you be asking Mike this question?

[Mark H]

I took him to be asking what adjustments and or additions others have made to Mike's drills. Largely relative to the points HG mentioned.

[Chris O'Leary]

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[MarkL]

Epstein's stuff doesn't seem to scale well because he doesn't seem to understand bat drag.

more because he doesn't understand stride/ weight shift....nor does pcr(w).

[hiddengem]

more because he doesn't understand stride/ weight shift....nor does pcr(w).

That is one thing my teamate doesn't do well..shift..just sits and spins. Hurts him quite badly. I'll take my disconnection at times with a good shift, over a spinner anyday.

[Chris O'Leary]

..........

[Go Cardinals]

Epstein's stuff doesn't seem to scale well because he doesn't seem to understand bat drag. Your teammate's problems with the good fastball reinforce this idea.

have you ever even seen his swing? assuming it's the guy I think he is talking about, he doesn't have any bat drag in it.

[BallCoach06]

Having worked with the Epstein drills for the past 2-3 years, I can understand the weight shift. Which is why I now incorporate the drills that Sparky Parker has put together.

As far as the bat drag issue, I don't see where that would come from doing the Epstein drills. In doing the drills in a team environment and 1:1 lesson work, I have not seen that being an issue at all.

[Paulypal]

I followed Epstein for a bit, it is not impossible to have success with it, but as HG said there is too much focus on keeping your weight back without enough weight shift in my opinion.

That is why Yeager was a good fit for me personally. I am not trying push Yeager but to me it was a perfect fit of shift/rotation with simple explanations.

[Mark H]

more because he doesn't understand stride/ weight shift....nor does pcr(w).

I thought Paul pointed out PCRW is not a teaching methodology? If you are speaking to what Steve teaches, he does understand and use momentum development/weight shift/stride. Again, I avoid talking about Yeager's stuff since I haven't had a chance to study it in detail. An approach I recommend.

[Mark H]

Having worked with the Epstein drills for the past 2-3 years, I can understand the weight shift. Which is why I now incorporate the drills that Sparky Parker has put together.

As far as the bat drag issue, I don't see where that would come from doing the Epstein drills. In doing the drills in a team environment and 1:1 lesson work, I have not seen that being an issue at all.

I agree bat drag would not come from Epstein's drills since the bat on the deltoid takes the arms pretty much out of the equation to isolate on learning Mike's take on rotation. When I asked Mike in person how he transitions kids off the deltoid, he looked like he'd never thought about it and said "some kids never do".

I think dhardy is asking for just the sort of info you describe in terms of incorporating something to deal with the lack of or backward weight shift in Mike's drills. Perhaps you can help him.

[crazyhawk]

Mark, I get that you are an SE advocate, but it does get a bit frustrating when you come into every thread that discusses a different guru and throw your quick 2 cents in concerning what that person doesn't teach and what SE will do to help that. This person asked a specific question concerning Epstein...not any other guru.

To the person who requested additional drills, call Jake Epstein. He goes over this on the phone and told me that it is a question that is asked daily and he goes over his philosophy. I don't want to misrepresent the way he said it to me...just give him a call or e-mail. He was very nice.

[Mark H]

Crazy,

If you'll read again you will see where I defended Mike's drills to say they will NOT, on their own, produce bat drag and I suggested resources on here for people who could help with the question. I know Mike's stuff. If I said something inaccurate, feel free to point it out. Also feel free to jump in on any Englishbey threads and scold the Yeager or Epstein advocates who jump in there. I didn't bring up Steve till PCR was mentioned. As far as the Epstein's offering adaptations of their drills that would be very cool but I'd wager CallyJr has better stuff based on his results though he doesn't seem to agree.

[callyjr]

This is my concern with Epstein's stuff.

It works GREAT at the youth levels but doesn't appear to scale well (e.g. beyond 7th grade or so).




Epstein's stuff doesn't seem to scale well because he doesn't seem to understand bat drag. Your teammate's problems with the good fastball reinforce this idea.

Ryan Garko is Epstein trained, there are quite a few college kids that signed big contracts this year as well. Its works at the next level as well as any other program, but you know as well as any that it takes a special talent to be at that level. Chris when you get the chance to work with the ML level player then I think its fair for you to say whether a program is good for the hi level player or not, until then well I'll just leave it at that.

[callyjr]

Hi All,

I received the DVD and CD and book from Mike Epstein. I want to start working on some of the drills this week. Are there any improvements or changes that I should make before I begin teaching them?

TIA

As I told you when you ordered them to PM with a video your boy and the torque drill and I will show you what I would like you to try in addition. Then we can move on from there.

Cally

[Ursa Major]

Crazyhawk, the original post asked for "improvements or changes that I should make" to supplement what he received from Epstein. In that vein, it's fine for someone who knows Englishbey's teachings to say "hey, this drill/cue/idea may be a good thing to throw in as well (or in lieu of) what Epstein teaches." Same for someone who knows something of Yeager, or Mankin, or Nyman. So, if MarkH touts Englishbey's teachings and nothing else in everything he posts, that's fine -- I'll make my own decisions as to whether his suggestions are helpful or not, and as to whether someone else's drills might be better. More information is always better than less information.

I think the important role of coaches is to absorb and steal from all these sources to see what might help a particular kid. Sometimes even "bad" ideas from otherwise clueless gurus may be just the ticket for a kid to temporarily "get" the next step in his or her development.

And Cally, I think they're a logical flaw in your challenging Chris O by saying, "Chris when you get the chance to work with the ML level player then I think its fair for you to say whether a program is good for the hi level player or not." What Chris said in questioning whether Epstein's teaching is "scalable" is that he's seen it's flaws manifested in kids beyond 7th grade. That's his observation and he's a talented guy and his opinion is worthy of some respect. Now, it's possible that Epstein's system does have failings for middle school and high school kids but those failings somehow magically evaporate at higher levels, and so Chris' conclusion as to "non-scalability" possibly was too broad to the extent you could read it to encompass pro players. But, to say that none of us can judge whether a piece of teaching is helpful at higher levels until we coach major leaguers is pretty pointless -- I don't care if what I teach helps pro players, as I (and just about everyone else here) coaches youth hitters.

[rkbenn]

Is it fair to say that Epstein doesn't teach the importance of weight shift? Keep the weight back on your rear inner thigh? I felt that my son's mechanics were great below the waist and I started with hips and up.

[callyjr]

Crazyhawk, the original post asked for "improvements or changes that I should make" to supplement what he received from Epstein. In that vein, it's fine for someone who knows Englishbey's teachings to say "hey, this drill/cue/idea may be a good thing to throw in as well (or in lieu of) what Epstein teaches." Same for someone who knows something of Yeager, or Mankin, or Nyman. So, if MarkH touts Englishbey's teachings and nothing else in everything he posts, that's fine -- I'll make my own decisions as to whether his suggestions are helpful or not, and as to whether someone else's drills might be better. More information is always better than less information.

I think the important role of coaches is to absorb and steal from all these sources to see what might help a particular kid. Sometimes even "bad" ideas from otherwise clueless gurus may be just the ticket for a kid to temporarily "get" the next step in his or her development.

And Cally, I think they're a logical flaw in your challenging Chris O by saying, "Chris when you get the chance to work with the ML level player then I think its fair for you to say whether a program is good for the hi level player or not." What Chris said in questioning whether Epstein's teaching is "scalable" is that he's seen it's flaws manifested in kids beyond 7th grade. That's his observation and he's a talented guy and his opinion is worthy of some respect. Now, it's possible that Epstein's system does have failings for middle school and high school kids but those failings somehow magically evaporate at higher levels, and so Chris' conclusion as to "non-scalability" possibly was too broad to the extent you could read it to encompass pro players. But, to say that none of us can judge whether a piece of teaching is helpful at higher levels until we coach major leaguers is pretty pointless -- I don't care if what I teach helps pro players, as I (and just about everyone else here) coaches youth hitters.

Ursa,

I understand what your saying however but to say that the system doesn't work at the major league level like Chris said is un true. Not many of us know what is is like to work with a hi level athlete. I have worked with kids that play with my son that just turned 8 and I have worked with kids all the way up to college, I have worked with a Single A kid that had a near perefect swing already, they all seem to be doing just fine at their levels. Couple of Batting titles, All region honors, ect...The difference between the youth and College kids completely 1000% opposites. If your not working with the higher level athlete you truely cannot judge how a system works IMO.

The thing that gets me is baseball is a game of adjustments, no matter what system you use your still making adjustments, but people like Chris want to say that a system doesn't work because a person he knows didn't have success with it. Maybe there isn't a system that works for that kid, maybe he cannot make the adjustments. The core Epstein drills will put any person on the correct path to a successful swing, making the adjustments from there is up to the individual.

Cally

[Chris O'Leary]

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[crazyhawk]

Where do you get the bat drag problems when it comes to Epstein"s hitting theories? I just don't get it. In general, I am a Epstein believer but I believe there are things that you do need to tweak to make it more effective. However, I just don't get your bat drag comments you have brought up. Can you explain what you mean by this when it pertains to Epstein? I think it is one of the strengths of Epstein's approach.

[Chris O'Leary]

..........

[callyjr]

I'm already there with a couple of guys.

While I think some of Epstein's stuff is good, I'm not convinced he understands important concepts like bat drag and the weight shift.

He does understand bat drag, when training in person he uses video just liike the rest of us an shows the hitters when the back elbow is getting ahead. When I was working with my son 2 years ago it was the first thing he pointed out to me when I sent him a copy of the video. He also doesn't promote a stride, but he does encourage weight shift, he says its whatever feels comfortable to to hitter. I personally like the stride.

Cally