And that's ok Jim.Originally Posted by jbooth
Here are 2 hitters with totally different loading patterns. Neither one was trained to "rotate the hips" into plant.
Both were trained to cock the front hip, and open the front foot approx. 30 degrees to clear the hip into "weighted plant", when simataneous rotation begins:
My short version of the role of unloading the “pelvic cock” --
IMO the "hips move before the shoulders" in a programmed fashion and in doing so generate momentum for transfer via the kinetic chain. This represents the"initial conditions of a ballistic sequence", while in addition generate, via "twisting action" of the torso, the alignment of the shoulders and top arm positioning for reversal of the scapulas (movement of bat in swing plane) on pitches middle to in or for the requisite extension for pitches away. On pitches middle to in the optimum "hooking" action is produced. On pitches away a combination of scapula reversal and arm extension is executed with degradation of the optimum hooking action.
joof
Last edited by joof; 07-28-2008 at 08:58 AM.
Joof, while I understand, this certainly isn't what you'd tell the 12 year old and his dad about hitting........
Cock the front hip and open the front foot 20-30 degrees into plant is a cue that is well understood and easily executed by any age hitter and his father working with his kid.......
This young lady came to me for the first time and when I asked what they were working on --the answer was turning the hips. This is my view of what you get when they conciously turn the hips, out of sequence.
In order to accomplish conscious turning of the hips she;
1. Squished the bug
2. Short cut the load
3. And did, in fact, turn her hips.
hips lead.bmp
Understanding there were several things wrong here this is a pretty good representation of what happens when kids turn the hips as a conscious thought, as opposed to turning their hips timely, powerfully, ie. correctly.
Paul says,
The debate gets comical when relegated to "how much". I really don't pay attention to how much because the degree varies by the
1. type of hitter,
2. to a degree, their flexibility
3. their timing on that pitch,
And I believe that the hips turn reactively. Not that you can't train hitters to rotate their hips better, but that's a different issue.
That said, I believe there is a base, a platform, that is established APPROACHING and into toe touch and I believe this is what Board member is saying. (better than me)
This base is set more UNconsciously--- due to the shift / momentum transfer. It is more reactive. IMO.
If there is no shift-- there is not much need to establish a "base approaching toe touch" nor can you --- because you are simply not in a position to do so.. So they, in general Squish the bug and swing with the arms because that is basically all that is left following a poor shift.
Boardmember,
Very nice post. Nice cue, easy to understand, very nice results as well.
BM
Joof, while I understand, this certainly isn't what you'd tell the 12 year old and his dad about hitting........
I do agree. It may take " five different ways" of describing this overall concept and in addition well planned directed instructional exercises and that still may not fulfill our goal of promoting learning. At this point it represents my position(best level of understanding) on the learning curve.
Am still listening and "turning over rocks".
joof
Totally agree.....
When I look at this clip I see the hips definitely leading the shoulders. I see a classic example of separation. The rotation of the hips and shoulders certainly isn't simultaneous.
And then when he is made the final decision to swing rotation of the hips (back hip joint moving toward the front) and the upper body occur almost simultaneously.
I just don't understand how someone can spend so much time promoting themselves as knowledgeable AND is not able to see what is right in front of their eyes.
Reading through this thread it seems to me the questions are why, when and how, not whether.
Of course, they are not simultaneous, but why? That is what is being debated, I think????
Anyway, it has been said and I agree that it is all about the loading (or cocking).
You cannot unload what you haven't loaded...
Certainly loading gets the body ready to shift its weight. And it's the weight shift that powers the rotation. Look at both clips of the softball players. As soon as the weight shift begins, so does the hip rotation. This rotation will occur whether the foot is at 30 degrees or not.
BM this is what I did in my swing mate test. When I didn't do this it felt like I could not sync body segments. I believe this needs to be done before decision time. IMO this action is part of the load not unload.Both were trained to cock the front hip, and open the front foot approx. 30 degrees to clear the hip into "weighted plant", when simataneous rotation begins:
You've changed the subject. The debate isn't about how to teach separation, or how much you get. There IS separation, and the hips move before the shoulders. The debate started when I responded to the following statement made by JustTheFacts;And that's ok Jim.
Here are 2 hitters with totally different loading patterns. Neither one was trained to "rotate the hips" into plant.
Both were trained to cock the front hip, and open the front foot approx. 30 degrees to clear the hip into "weighted plant", when simataneous rotation begins:
He sees very little separation, and I see a lot;For the most part this is bull crap. If you look at the homerun swings of most major-league hitters there is very little separation i.e. at the most one frame on a 30 frame per second VCR. What appears to be separation does occur when a major-league hitter is making an adjustment to an off speech pitch i.e. upper body lags behind the hips. Take a look at the homerun clips of Josh Hamilton ( 500 foot homeruns) there is very little separation between hips and upper body.
Correct!
I'll bet if you TRIED to actively rotate your hips into foot plant you'd really be screwed up...........
It seems to me this IS what Yeager (based on Yeager advocates here) is advocating AND what Jim is agreeing to. I know Jim works with students as well, so I'm sure what he says to them works for him.
I just don't feel it happens that way........
IMO, "Clearing the hips" to fire the ENTIRE swing is much different then actively rotating the hips into foot plant, and sends a completely different message.
The hips and shoulders BEGIN rotating simultaneously after weighted foot plant and the unloading process begins. As the links pick up energy, things begin to align and eventually pass into contact.........
Look at frames 4 thru 8. Frame 4 is when his foot gets weighted. The hips turn while the shoulders are still, in frames 5 and 6.Correct!
I'll bet if you TRIED to actively rotate your hips into foot plant you'd really be screwed up...........
It seems to me this IS what Yeager (based on Yeager advocates here) is advocating AND what Jim is agreeing to. I know Jim works with students as well, so I'm sure what he says to them works for him.
I just don't feel it happens that way........
IMO, "Clearing the hips" to fire the ENTIRE swing is much different then actively rotating the hips into foot plant, and sends a completely different message.
The hips and shoulders BEGIN rotating simultaneously after weighted foot plant and the unloading process begins. As the links pick up energy, things begin to align and eventually pass into contact.........
For two frames after the front foot is weighted the hips turn ahead of the shoulders.
Ah Jim, your probably right. It was a natural progression in my head I guess. No harm intended.
Anyway, MY NEW POINT IS..., I don't believe separation is actively being achieved BECAUSE of concious SEPARATE rotation of the hips from the shoulders "before or at" launch.
I think separation happens during the load, as the shoulders are held back/hands are loaded back/scaps are pinched, OR WHATEVER the hell you do during the positive move into foot plant AND THE FRONT FOOT OPENS TO A DEGREE TO CLEAR THE HIPS......
From there, AT foot plant, EVERYTHING GOES HARD AS HELL..........(this may be the miss-reference to "TURN LIKE HELL" that certain people love to use against Steve.
Once this action begins, stuff just happens..........
You've changed the subject. The debate isn't about how to teach separation, or how much you get. There IS separation, and the hips move before the shoulders. The debate started when I responded to the following statement made by JustTheFacts;
He sees very little separation, and I see a lot;
Sorry Jim, I don't believe the "weighted foot plant" frame you see. I wish you included the feet in your clip...........
Please have another look at your high speed .mpg of Hamilton. I just did.
Weighted foot plant WHEN THE HEAL HITS THE ROAD, is shown in the first few frames of your clip. Go look at it and tell me IF EVERYTHING is rotating together at HEAL PLANT.
While they may not be "ALIGNED", at this point, they are GOING TOGETHER........Check it out.
http://firstpickclub.com/video/HamiltonHRDerby.mpg
When I get home, I'll look at my copy of the clip you posted above, where it show's foot plant, and see If I agree or disagree with your assesment.
Until then......It's fun to discuss stuff with you because there's no "added BS value" of aggenda's.........
Thx!
P.S. As an aside, I don't consider "weighted foot plant" as "when the big toe first touches the ground. I consider "weighted foot plant" as when the front leg bears the weight of the shift, which isn't until the heal is down............
Look at frames 4 thru 8. Frame 4 is when his foot gets weighted. The hips turn while the shoulders are still, in frames 5 and 6.
For two frames after the front foot is weighted the hips turn ahead of the shoulders.
Last edited by BoardMember; 07-28-2008 at 01:48 PM.
Well, they're both doing what I think is correct, so however you want to instruct them to do that, I guess, is an individual thing.And that's ok Jim.
Here are 2 hitters with totally different loading patterns. Neither one was trained to "rotate the hips" into plant.
Both were trained to cock the front hip, and open the front foot approx. 30 degrees to clear the hip into "weighted plant", when simataneous rotation begins:
Got to to be wary of that extrapolated data!! Ha!
Sorry Jim, I don't believe the "weighted foot plant" frame you see. I wish you included the feet in your clip...........
Excellent point!!
I think separation happens during the load, as the shoulders are held back/hands are loaded back/scaps are pinched, OR WHATEVER the hell you do during the positive move into foot plant AND THE FRONT FOOT OPENS TO A DEGREE TO CLEAR THE HIPS......
In our discussions Fpdad(dave s) for the longest has described the unload of the "pelvic cock" as generating a loading of the torso up through the shoulders.
Been a really good thread relating to the "hips ahead of the shoulders" concept.
joof
No I think to the contrary Yeager "expects it happen" more out of correct weight shift during the stride. If the front heel is not yet weighted, and the back of the foot is coming up, then you are in good shape i.e. the front side block has not happened before the backside push completed. Typically then the rear knee has gotten way out in front of the back foot (ground forces
From reading HG and Retkag both of who recently worked directly with him, I am not sure they spent much time on how hard or purposefully to turn the hips. Granted if you watch his video on what happens in the MLB swing you'll see the segmentation is there, but I'd side a little closer to BM in the case that "trying to turn the hips" is not the thought.
True.
It isn't what he advocates.
Insanity reigns....
If you look closely you'll see the head of the bat it begins to rotate in going from frame five to frame six. At most there is a very small amount of hip rotation that precedes what some would perceive as shoulder rotation.jbooth said
Look at frames 4 thru 8. Frame 4 is when his foot gets weighted. The hips turn while the shoulders are still, in frames 5 and 6.
For two frames after the front foot is weighted the hips turn ahead of the shoulders.
But in my opinion this whole discussion is simply a smokescreen skirting around the real issue as to exactly what is being accomplished by this very small amount hip movement prior to when the shoulders start to follow and again it is my contention that the head of the bat moving is the initiation of upper body rotation for high-level players (players that have minimal bat drag and minimal bat lag).
I ask again the questio; exactly what wondrous advantage is there to starting the hips FRACTIONALLY ahead of the shoulders (if indeed that is what is happening).
This whole issue of hips leading the way is in my opinion a joke with respect to really understanding what starting hips early is "allegedly" achieving.
According to Epstein is greater power (rubberbanding). But Epstein advocates counter rotation of the upper body i.e. an extreme amount of differential between hips and shoulders which Hamilton does not exhibit as you hitting 500 foot plus home runs.
So it's not about home run power.
Also counter rotating upper body or creating a large differential between upper body will slow the swing down in terms of how quickly the hitter can get the bat to the ball, IE has the potential to force the player to initiate their swing movement earlier giving them less time to make decisions regarding the flight of the ball.
And then we have the spinning issue which no one has really defined in terms of what the miniscule amount of hip rotation preceding upper body rotation of Hamilton supposedly prevents (prevents spinning).
And last but not least if I'm not mistaken it wasn't hip rotation that HG and retkag were having a problem with which caused them to seek out Yaeger's help.
And it is still undefined/not clear exactly what Yaeger did for either HG and retkag other than they both said that in their opinion he helped them and he was able to explain things better than anyone else whatever that means.
We are chasing a lot of red herrings as well as agendas in these discussions, my not so humble opinion.
Thx Loren. I'm always careful to say that "what I perceive he's teaching is, is ONLY from my understandings of his advocates say here".
They, knowing the stuff, probably leave out a lot of the little stuff, and it can become missunderstood easily.
They are quick to correct my missunderstandings, which I don't mind.......
Paul, I'm glad we're keeping you entertained. We're certainly keeping ourselves entertained!.............
That's my definition also. And, in that case he is rotating the hip before the foot is weighted.
Maybe someday you'll understand it, but at this point in time, I don't think you're open to having your mind changed.
Ted Williams and many, many MLB hitters have said, for years, that you have to get the lower body into the swing. Hips lead the hands. The separation of hips and shoulders is important in two aspects. One, it adds power to the swing and two, it allows the lower half to "get going" while you hold the top back, so that you can hit fastballs and change-ups. If you swing as a unit, most of the time you will be late on the fastball, and early on the change. The separation gets the lower half committed so that you can release the top as soon as you recognize fastball, and by not committing the upper body too soon, you can wait on the change up.
This guy hit 586 HR's .537 SLG% and .294 lifetime avg.
Do you NOT see how early his hips turn, and how significant the displacement is between the hips and shoulders?
http://firstpickclub.com/video/robinson1.mpg
No MLB player swings with a one piece turn, that simply sets the hip/shoulder displacement prior to rotating. They may not consciously think of turning the hips, but they DO think of keeping the shoulder in. And, they know that they need to turn the hips, therefore, logic should tell you that if they keep the shoulder in and turn the hips (even unconsciously) that the hips will move ahead of the shoulders.
The insanity reigning here, is yours in thinking the swing is one piece.
There is approximately a 30 degree angle between his hips and shoulders and this angle was not set in his stance or before his stride. He created this angle during the stride and as the front foot is getting weighted.
Last edited by jbooth; 07-28-2008 at 07:31 PM.
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