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Thread: The BBF HOF Forum Collaboration Game – Game On!

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    The BBF HOF Forum Collaboration Game – Game On!

    Let’s get started! In this thread, we’ll produce our collaborative rankings of the top players in history. In the introductory thread for this game, The BBF HOF Forum Collaboration Game, you’ll find a thorough discussion of the rules. Here’s a briefer presentation of them.

    The basic idea is we rank every player in history, taking turns listing the next name.

    It would help if you already have a system in place for assessing hundreds of players. Well, I would hope at least 300, to capture every HOF-caliber player.

    We’ve established a rotation of Gamers, arranging the names alphabetically to start with. The current rotation is listed in this post. Anyone who wants to join in and play is welcome; your name will be placed at the bottom of the rotation, so wait until it’s your turn to list a player. If you want to quit the game at any time, just let us know and we’ll take your name off the rotation. Periodically, we’ll reorder the rotation.

    We’ll use Hall of Fame criteria for ranking players, so everything counts (character, managing, their overall contribution). Active players will be included, but they should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up. Negro leaguers will be included. Japanese league stars with less than four years in MLB will not be included.

    Players whose primary contribution was non-playing (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, etc.) will be ranked only on consideration of their playing career, not their total contribution.

    Gamers have three options:

    1) Add a player - Pretty simple, just recopy the list, adding your guy at the bottom. Doing this means you’re OK with the previous two players listed. A brief justification for your player is a good thing to include, but not required. Place the statement, “[Gamer X] is now on the clock” to signify the end of your turn. More about “on the clock” later.
    2) Remove a player – You may remove one of the last two names on the list, adding your player at the bottom. After your player’s name, place this statement in parentheses: “sorry, I had to remove [player X] – Xth time”. (The same player can be removed up to a maximum of three times; after that he stays put the fourth time he is listed. A player may be listed a maximum of three times by the same Gamer.) Then place the “clock” statement to end your turn.
    3) Reinstate and add – Before listing your player you can list the name of a player who was Removed in the previous turn. After the reinstated player’s name, place the word “reinstated” in parentheses. (You may not Reinstate and Remove in the same turn.) Then place the “clock” statement to end your turn.

    On The Clock – A Gamer ends his official turn with the statement “[Gamer X] is now on the clock”. Gamer X has to wait at least an hour before he may post his official turn. This delay is to encourage discussion and feedback from the other Gamers as to the previous turn, as well as discussing the upcoming pick. They can try to persuade Gamer X to play his turn in a certain way. If Gamer X posts his turn early (<57 minutes after the previous turn) one of the other Gamers must alert him that he posted too early, that his turn is not official. In this case, after the required hour has passed Gamer X must make a post to reaffirm his turn or it will not count.

    Unexcused Absence - Gamer X forfeits his turn if he has not posted his official turn (or reaffirmed his turn if posted too early) within 24 hours of being On the Clock. One of the Gamers should alert the Gamer following Gamer X that he is now On the Clock. Gamer X will be placed at the end of the round, if he requests to stay in the game; otherwise he will have no turn this round. This counts as an Unexcused Absence. After two consecutive Unexcused Absences or four overall, a Gamer will be allowed only a 12-hour clock for his turn. (It would be helpful if, when a Gamer is near to having his Clock expire (say, less than four hours to go) if the following gamer sent him a reminder via PM.)

    Excused Absence - If Gamer X knows he will be away from the game, he should make this known to the other Gamers before his turn comes up. This way, everyone knows to skip him and put the next Gamer on the Clock. Gamer X will be moved to the end of the current rotation if he requests it; otherwise we’ll simply skip his turn. This eliminates having the game on hold for 24 hours, keeping things moving.

    So, each name will have to pass the scrutiny of at least two other voters before it becomes permanent. We’re collaborating to, hopefully, produce a better ranking than any one of us could produce on our own.

    In actual play, I would hope that the Remove option would only be used for players you think are listed significantly early, and not to replace guys you have coming up soon in your queue anyway. See the introductory thread for an example of the sequence of play.

    Above all, we should maintain a spirit of cooperation. We’re working together to produce the very best rankings that we can. Discussion is encouraged here! We seek to enlighten others, relying on the force of our evidence more than our rhetoric. We hope that all Gamers will engage in a civil discourse that has become the hallmark of this forum.
    Pitchers -
    1 8 Walter Johnson *
    2 15 Lefty Grove *
    3 18 Greg Maddux #
    4 21 Roger Clemens +
    5 23 Cy Young *
    6 27 Pete Alexander *
    7 31 Christy Mathewson *
    8 34 Tom Seaver *
    9 35 Satchel Paige --
    10 41 Warren Spahn *
    11 44 Randy Johnson #
    12 46 Steve Carlton *
    13 50 Kid Nichols *
    14 58 Bob Feller *
    15 59 Smokey Joe Williams --
    16 66 Bob Gibson *
    17 67 Pedro Martinez #
    18 74 Carl Hubbell *
    19 75 Nolan Ryan *
    20 78 Sandy Koufax *
    21 84 Robin Roberts *
    22 88 Eddie Plank *
    23 89 Jim Palmer *
    24 95 Bert Blyleven
    25 103 Gaylord Perry *
    26 105 Ed Walsh *
    28 114 Phil Niekro *
    29 116 Tim Keefe *
    30 118 Mordecai Brown *
    31 123 Whitey Ford *
    32 126 Juan Marichal *
    33 128 Dazzy Vance *
    34 129 Bullet Joe Rogan --
    36 136 John Clarkson *
    37 142 Hal Newhouser *
    39 149 Fergie Jenkins *
    40 150 Tom Glavine #
    41 152 Don Sutton *
    42 166 Amos Rusie *
    43 172 Curt Schilling +
    44 173 John Smoltz #
    45 174 Charley Radbourn *
    46 176 Rube Foster --
    47 177 Mike Mussina #
    50 183 Rube Waddell *
    51 184 Red Ruffing *
    52 187 Don Drysdale *
    53 190 Stan Coveleski *
    54 192 Early Wynn *
    55 201 Ray Brown --
    56 202 Jim Bunning *
    57 203 Al Spalding *
    58 204 Ted Lyons *
    59 205 Eppa Rixey *
    60 215 Wes Ferrell
    61 218 Bill Foster --
    62 222 Kevin Brown +
    63 223 Joe McGinnity *
    64 224 Pud Galvin *
    65 229 Dizzy Dean *
    66 231 Red Faber *
    67 239 Jose Mendez --
    68 252 Bob Lemon *
    70 259 Clark Griffith *
    71 263 Bob Caruthers
    72 269 Vic Willis *
    74 272 Johan Santana #
    76 287 Jim McCormick
    77 290 Tommy Bridges
    78 296 Carl Mays
    79 299 Burleigh Grimes *
    80 306 Addie Joss *
    81 307 Mickey Welch *
    82 308 Billy Pierce
    83 310 Dave Stieb
    84 312 Tony Mullane
    85 313 Urban Shocker
    86 316 Tommy John
    87 318 Hilton Smith --
    88 321 Wilbur Cooper
    89 323 Bret Saberhagen
    90 330 Dick Redding ---
    91 338 Luis Tiant
    92 340 Ron Guidry
    93 344 Bucky Walters
    94 345 Jack Morris
    95 349 Lefty Gomez *
    97 358 Leon Day --
    98 359 Jim Creighton
    100 361 David Cone
    102 364 Jim Kaat
    103 368 Herb Pennock *
    104 369 Catfish Hunter *
    105 370 Chief Bender *
    106 372 Rick Reuschel
    107 381 Tommy Bond
    108 382 Don Newcombe
    109 386 Lon Warneke
    111 399 Dolf Luque
    112 402 Eddie Cicotte +
    113 403 Waite Hoyt *
    114 406 Frank Tanana
    116 410 Roy Oswalt #
    117 415 Dutch Leonard
    118 428 Mickey Lolich
    119 431 Jerry Koosman
    120 432 Bill Jackman ---
    121 436 Orel Hershiser
    122 437 Roy Halladay #
    124 441 Hippo Vaughn
    125 449 Dizzy Trout
    128 454 Jack Quinn
    130 457 Brandon Webb #
    131 459 Vida Blue
    132 462 Kevin Appier
    133 464 Andy Cooper --
    134 465 Noodles Hahn
    135 468 Silver King
    136 470 Virgil Trucks
    137 471 Chuck Finley
    138 474 Allie Reynolds
    139 477 Harry Brecheen
    140 479 Smoky Joe Wood
    141 485 Babe Adams
    Relief Pitchers
    27 113 Mariano Rivera #
    35 133 Dennis Eckersley *
    38 146 Hoyt Wilhelm *
    48 178 Rich Gossage *
    49 181 Rollie Fingers *
    69 258 Bruce Sutter *
    73 270 Trevor Hoffman #
    75 281 Dan Quisenberry
    96 356 Billy Wagner #
    99 360 Kent Tekulve
    101 362 Lee Smith
    110 388 John Franco +
    115 408 Firpo Marberry
    123 438 John Hiller
    126 450 John Wetteland
    127 451 Tom Henke
    129 455 Sparky Lyle
    Catchers
    01 10 Josh Gibson --
    02 25 Yogi Berra *
    03 30 Johnny Bench *
    04 49 Mike Piazza +
    05 61 Mickey Cochrane *
    06 77 Roy Campanella *
    07 79 Buck Ewing *
    08 98 Ivan Rodriguez #
    09 99 Gary Carter *
    10 101 Carlton Fisk *
    11 124 Bill Dickey *
    12 130 Gabby Hartnett *
    13 132 Deacon White
    14 157 Louis Santop --
    15 170 Ted Simmons
    16 189 Joe Torre
    17 221 Bill Freehan
    18 235 Charlie Bennett
    19 236 Roger Bresnahan *
    20 266 Cal McVey
    21 275 Thurman Munson
    22 285 Biz Mackey --
    23 298 Ernie Lombardi *
    24 303 Elston Howard
    25 317 Quincy Trouppe ---
    26 320 Lance Parrish
    27 331 Wally Schang
    28 380 Jorge Posada #
    29 385 Deacon McGuire
    30 387 Gene Tenace
    31 390 Walker Cooper
    32 392 Ray Schalk *
    33 401 Darrell Porter
    34 407 Bob Boone
    35 420 Ted Radcliffe ---
    36 433 Duke Farrell
    37 446 Jim Sundberg
    38 461 Johnny Kling
    39 494 Darren Daulton
    First Basemen
    01 12 Lou Gehrig *
    02 22 Jimmie Foxx *
    03 33 Cap Anson *
    04 39 Dan Brouthers *
    05 47 Hank Greenberg *
    06 68 Frank Thomas #
    07 70 Johnny Mize *
    08 73 Jeff Bagwell +
    09 76 Buck Leonard --
    10 80 Harmon Killebrew *
    11 82 Eddie Murray *
    12 86 Willie McCovey *
    13 97 Roger Connor *
    14 110 Mule Suttles --
    15 115 Mark McGwire
    16 121 Albert Pujols #
    17 137 Dick Allen
    18 144 Rafael Palmeiro +
    19 158 Jim Thome #
    20 168 Joe Start
    21 191 Fred McGriff +
    22 198 Orlando Cepeda *
    23 199 Carlos Delgado #
    24 209 Tony Perez *
    25 217 George Sisler *
    26 232 Keith Hernandez
    27 233 Will Clark
    28 241 Bill Terry *
    29 255 Todd Helton #
    30 286 Frank Chance *
    31 302 Steve Garvey
    32 314 Jake Beckley *
    33 322 Don Mattingly
    34 329 Norm Cash
    35 333 Gil Hodges
    36 351 Jim Bottomley *
    37 371 John Olerud +
    38 389 Mickey Vernon
    39 391 Boog Powell
    40 397 Jason Giambi #
    41 398 Ben Taylor --
    42 413 Mark Grace
    43 425 Andres Galarraga +
    44 430 David Ortiz #
    45 445 Jack Fournier
    46 472 Ed Konetchy
    47 486 Luke Easter ---
    48 499 Dolph Camilli
    Second Basemen
    01 14 Rogers Hornsby *
    02 19 Eddie Collins *
    03 29 Nap Lajoie *
    04 32 Joe Morgan *
    05 36 Jackie Robinson *
    06 57 Charlie Gehringer *
    07 63 Frankie Frisch *
    08 72 Craig Biggio +
    09 87 Rod Carew *
    10 108 Roberto Alomar +
    11 120 Ryne Sandberg *
    12 140 Bobby Grich
    13 154 Ross Barnes
    14 160 Lou Whitaker
    15 169 Joe Gordon *
    16 180 Jeff Kent #
    17 188 Billy Herman *
    18 210 Bid McPhee *
    19 227 Bobby Doerr *
    20 248 Hardy Richardson
    21 256 Nellie Fox *
    22 257 Frank Grant --
    23 274 Larry Doyle
    24 289 Red Schoendienst *
    25 301 Willie Randolph
    26 304 Cupid Childs
    27 311 Tony Lazzeri *
    28 339 Dick McAuliffe
    29 375 Bill Mazeroski *
    30 377 Johnny Evers *
    31 378 Buddy Myer
    32 379 Del Pratt
    33 394 Fred Dunlap
    34 411 Chino Smith ---
    35 429 Jim Gilliam
    36 442 Julio Franco +
    37 448 Bill Monroe ---
    38 482 Chuck Knoblauch
    39 487 Tony Phillips
    40 489 Frank White
    41 497 Davey Lopes
    Third Basemen
    01 16 Mike Schmidt *
    02 42 George Brett *
    03 45 Eddie Mathews *
    04 62 Wade Boggs *
    05 83 Frank Baker *
    06 92 Chipper Jones #
    07 104 Ron Santo
    08 134 Paul Molitor *
    09 153 Brooks Robinson *
    10 159 Jud Wilson --
    11 162 Jimmy Collins *
    12 193 Edgar Martinez +
    13 197 Darrell Evans
    14 211 Ezra Sutton
    15 212 John Beckwith ---
    16 213 Heinie Groh
    17 216 Ken Boyer
    18 242 Stan Hack
    19 245 Pie Traynor *
    20 254 Graig Nettles
    21 267 Ray Dandridge --
    22 268 Tommy Leach
    23 282 Bob Elliott
    24 295 Scott Rolen #
    25 332 Sal Bando
    26 336 George Kell *
    27 341 Al Rosen
    28 343 John McGraw *
    29 355 Lave Cross
    30 366 Ron Cey
    31 373 Buddy Bell
    32 393 Robin Ventura +
    33 396 Matt Williams
    34 424 Ned Williamson
    35 426 Levi Meyerle
    36 440 Bus Clarkson ---
    37 463 Gary Gaetti
    38 473 Bill Madlock
    39 476 Ollie Marcelle ---
    40 483 Bobby Bonilla
    41 484 Larry Gardner
    42 496 Toby Harrah
    43 500 Eddie Yost
    Shortstops
    01 4 Honus Wagner *
    02 26 Alex Rodriguez #
    03 37 Pop Lloyd --
    04 43 Cal Ripken *
    05 51 Arky Vaughan *
    06 69 Robin Yount *
    07 81 Ernie Banks *
    08 94 George Wright *
    09 111 Barry Larkin +
    10 112 Joe Cronin *
    11 117 Alan Trammell
    12 122 George Davis *
    13 138 Pee Wee Reese *
    14 141 Willie Wells --
    15 148 Bill Dahlen
    16 151 Luke Appling *
    17 161 Ozzie Smith *
    18 167 Derek Jeter #
    19 196 Lou Boudreau *
    20 214 John Ward *
    21 230 Dickey Pearce
    22 234 Bobby Wallace *
    23 253 Jack Glasscock
    24 264 Hughie Jennings *
    25 265 Dobie Moore ---
    26 273 Joe Sewell *
    27 279 Rabbit Maranville *
    28 280 Vern Stephens
    29 291 Luis Aparicio *
    30 294 Homerun Johnson ---
    31 325 Phil Rizzuto *
    32 334 Nomar Garciaparra #
    33 346 Herman Long
    34 357 Dick Lundy ---
    35 374 Dave Concepcion
    36 400 Johnny Pesky
    37 416 Miguel Tejada #
    38 418 Jim Fregosi
    39 419 Dave Bancroft *
    40 434 Omar Vizquel #
    41 444 Bert Campaneris
    42 453 Tony Fernandez
    43 456 Joe Tinker *
    44 488 Alvin Dark
    45 498 Maury Wills
    Left Fielders
    01 5 Ted Williams *
    02 9 Barry Bonds +
    03 11 Stan Musial *
    04 38 Turkey Stearnes --
    05 40 Rickey Henderson *
    06 48 Ed Delahanty *
    07 60 Carl Yastrzemski *
    08 91 Tim Raines
    09 106 Al Simmons *
    10 107 Willie Stargell *
    11 109 Jesse Burkett *
    12 155 Joe Medwick *
    13 163 Minnie Minoso
    14 164 Fred Clarke *
    15 171 Billy Williams *
    16 175 Goose Goslin *
    17 194 Sherry Magee
    18 195 Zack Wheat *
    19 208 Ralph Kiner *
    20 220 Lou Brock *
    21 225 Harry Stovey
    22 246 Monte Irvin --
    23 249 Jim Rice *
    24 260 Albert Belle
    25 284 Joe Kelley *
    26 309 Jimmy Sheckard
    27 319 Tip O'Neill
    28 326 Charlie Keller
    29 348 Charley Jones
    30 350 Bobby Veach
    31 352 Heinie Manush *
    32 353 Bob Johnson
    33 384 Lefty O'Doul
    34 404 Frank Howard
    35 405 Jose Cruz
    36 412 Lance Berkman #
    37 417 George J. Burns
    38 421 Joe Carter
    39 422 Luis Gonzalez #
    40 467 George Foster
    41 475 Ken Williams
    Center Fielders
    01 2 Ty Cobb *
    02 3 Willie Mays *
    03 6 Mickey Mantle *
    04 13 Oscar Charleston --
    05 17 Tris Speaker *
    06 20 Joe DiMaggio *
    07 52 Ken Griffey, Jr. #
    08 64 Duke Snider *
    09 100 Cristobal Torriente --
    10 102 Billy Hamilton *
    11 119 Cool Papa Bell --
    12 127 Paul Hines
    13 131 Jim O'Rourke *
    14 135 Richie Ashburn *
    15 145 Kirby Puckett *
    16 156 Larry Doby *
    17 186 Max Carey *
    18 206 Andre Dawson
    19 207 Pete Hill --
    20 238 Jim Edmonds #
    21 243 Earl Averill *
    22 247 George Gore
    23 250 Pete Browning
    24 251 Jimmy Wynn
    25 261 Dale Murphy
    26 262 Hugh Duffy *
    27 271 Bernie Williams +
    28 276 Edd Roush *
    29 277 Willard Brown --
    30 278 Alejandro Oms ---
    31 288 George Van Haltren
    32 292 Hack Wilson *
    33 305 Lip Pike
    34 335 Jimmy Ryan
    35 347 Wally Berger
    36 363 Fielder Jones
    37 365 Al Oliver
    38 367 Vada Pinson
    39 376 Fred Lynn
    40 383 Kenny Lofton +
    41 414 Cesar Cedeno
    42 427 Brett Butler
    43 435 Benny Kauff
    44 447 Andruw Jones #
    45 466 Amos Otis
    46 469 Dummy Hoy
    47 480 Dom DiMaggio
    48 491 Cy Williams
    49 492 Roy Thomas
    50 495 Spotswood Poles ---
    Right Fielders
    01 1 Babe Ruth *
    02 7 Hank Aaron *
    03 24 Frank Robinson *
    04 28 Mel Ott *
    05 53 Al Kaline *
    06 54 Pete Rose +
    07 55 Reggie Jackson *
    08 56 Tony Gwynn *
    09 65 Sam Crawford *
    10 71 Roberto Clemente *
    11 85 Martin Dihigo --
    12 90 Paul Waner *
    13 93 King Kelly *
    14 96 Harry Heilmann *
    15 125 Joe Jackson +
    16 139 Gary Sheffield #
    17 143 Dave Winfield *
    18 147 Manny Ramirez #
    19 165 Sam Thompson *
    20 179 Vlad Guerrero #
    21 182 Sammy Sosa +
    22 185 Enos Slaughter *
    23 200 Willie Keeler *
    24 219 Elmer Flick *
    25 226 Dwight Evans
    26 228 Ichiro Suzuki #
    27 237 Larry Walker +
    28 240 Dave Parker
    29 244 Chuck Klein *
    30 283 Reggie Smith
    31 293 Bobby Bonds
    32 297 Jose Canseco
    33 300 Gavy Cravath
    34 315 Tony Oliva
    35 324 Kiki Cuyler *
    36 327 Ken Singleton
    37 328 Juan Gonzalez +
    38 337 Sam Rice *
    39 342 Rusty Staub
    40 354 Buzz Arlett
    41 395 Rocky Colavito
    42 409 Harry Hooper *
    43 423 Jack Clark
    44 439 Harold Baines
    45 443 Mike Tiernan
    46 452 Darryl Strawberry
    47 458 Roger Maris
    48 460 Babe Herman
    49 478 Paul O'Neill
    50 481 Bobby Murcer
    51 490 Bobby Abreu #
    52 493 Brian Giles #

    CURRENT ROTATION OF GAMERS
    Round 55:
    henrich
    dgarza
    jjpm74
    STLCards2
    John Shoemaker
    bambambaseball
    Freakshow
    Erik Bedard
    leecemark

    ALL PLAYERS LISTED, ALPHABETICALLY (#1 to 100)
    Code:
    9 Aaron, Hank* 	 1 Alexander, Pete* 	 3 Anson, Cap* 	         3 Bagwell, Jeff+ 	 5 Baker, Frank*
    6 Banks, Ernie*  2 Bench, Johnny* 	 2 Berra, Yogi* 	 4 Biggio, Craig+ 	 1 Blyleven, Bert
    5 Boggs, Wade* 	 7 Bonds, Barry+ 	 5 Brett, George* 	 3 Brouthers, Dan* 	 2 Campanella, Roy*
    4 Carew, Rod* 	 1 Carlton, Steve* 	 2 Carter, Gary* 	 8 Charleston, Oscar* 	 1 Clemens, Roger+
    9 Clemente, Rob* 8 Cobb, Ty* 	         2 Cochrane, Mickey* 	 4 Collins, Eddie* 	 3 Connor, Roger*
    9 Crawford, Sam* 7 Delahanty, Ed* 	 9 Dihigo, Martin* 	 8 DiMaggio, Joe* 	 2 Ewing, Buck*
    1 Feller, Bob* 	 3 Foxx, Jimmie* 	 4 Frisch, Frankie* 	 3 Gehrig, Lou* 	 4 Gehringer, Charlie*
    1 Gibson, Bob* 	 2 Gibson, Josh* 	 3 Greenberg, Hank* 	 8 Griffey, Jr, Ken# 	 1 Grove, Lefty*
    9 Gwynn, Tony* 	 9 Heilmann, Harry* 	 7 Henderson, Rickey+ 	 4 Hornsby, Rogers* 	 1 Hubbell, Carl*
    9 Jackson, Reg*  1 Johnson, Randy# 	 1 Johnson Walter* 	 5 Jones, Chipper# 	 9 Kaline, Al*
    9 Kelly, King* 	 3 Killebrew, Harmon* 	 1 Koufax, Sandy* 	 4 Lajoie, Nap* 	 3 Leonard, Buck*
    6 Lloyd, Pop* 	 1 Maddux, Greg# 	 8 Mantle, Mickey* 	 1 Martinez, Pedro# 	 5 Mathews, Eddie*
    1 Mathewson, Chr*8 Mays, Willie* 	 3 McCovey, Willie* 	 3 Mize, Johnny* 	 4 Morgan, Joe*
    3 Murray, Eddie* 7 Musial, Stan* 	 1 Nichols, Kid* 	 9 Ott, Mel* 	         1 Paige, Satchel*
    1 Palmer, Jim* 	 2 Piazza, Mike+ 	 1 Plank, Ed* 	         7 Raines, Tim 	         6 Ripken, Cal*
    1 Roberts, Robin*9 Robinson, Frank* 	 4 Robinson, Jackie* 	 6 Rodriguez, Alex# 	 2 Rodriguez, Ivan#
    9 Rose, Pete+ 	 9 Ruth, Babe* 	         1 Ryan, Nolan* 	 5 Schmidt, Mike* 	 1 Seaver, Tom*
    8 Snider, Duke*  1 Spahn, Warren* 	 8 Speaker, Tris* 	 8 Stearnes, Turkey* 	 3 Thomas, Frank#
    8 Torriente, Cri*6 Vaughan, Arky* 	 6 Wagner, Honus* 	 9 Waner, Paul* 	 1 Williams, Joe*
    7 Williams, Ted* 6 Wright, George* 	 7 Yastrzemski, Carl* 	 1 Young, Cy* 	         6 Yount, Robin*
    (#101-200)
    Code:
    3 Allen, Dick 	 2 Alomar, Roberto+ 	 6 Appling, Luke* 	 8 Ashburn, Richie* 	 4 Barnes, Ross
    8 Bell, Cool Pa* 6 Boudreau, Lou* 	 1 Brown, Mordecai* 	 7 Burkett, Jesse* 	 8 Carey, Max*
    3 Cepeda, Orlan* 7 Clarke, Fred* 	 1 Clarkson, John* 	 5 Collins, Jimmy* 	 1 Coveleski, Stan*
    6 Cronin, Joe* 	 6 Dahlen, Bill 	 6 Davis, George* 	 3 Delgado, Carlos# 	 2 Dickey, Bill*
    8 Doby, Larry* 	 1 Drysdale, Don* 	 1 Eckersley, Dennis* 	 5 Evans, Darrell 	 1 Fingers, Rollie*
    2 Fisk, Carlton* 1 Ford, Whitey* 	 1 Foster, Rube* 	 1 Glavine, Tom# 	 4 Gordon, Joe
    7 Goslin, Goose* 1 Gossage, Rich* 	 4 Grich, Bobby 	 9 Guerrero, Vlad# 	 8 Hamilton, Billy*
    2 Hartnett, Gab* 4 Herman, Billy* 	 8 Hines, Paul 	         9 Jackson, Joe+ 	 1 Jenkins, Fergie*
    6 Jeter, Derek#  1 Keefe, Tim* 	         9 Keeler, Willie* 	 4 Kent, Jeff# 	         6 Larkin, Barry+
    7 Magee, Sherry  1 Marichal, Juan* 	 5 Martinez, Edgar+ 	 3 McGriff, Fred+ 	 3 McGwire, Mark
    7 Medwick, Joe*  7 Minoso, Minnie 	 5 Molitor, Paul* 	 1 Mussina, Mike# 	 1 Newhouser, Hal*
    1 Niekro, Phil*  8 O’Rourke, Jim* 	 3 Palmeiro, Rafael+ 	 1 Perry, Gaylord* 	 8 Puckett, Kirby*
    3 Pujols, Albert#1 Radbourn, Charley* 	 9 Ramirez, Manny# 	 6 Reese, Pee Wee* 	 1 Rivera, Mariano#
    5 Robinson, Bro* 1 Rogan, Joe* 	         1 Ruffing, Red* 	 1 Rusie, Amos* 	 4 Sandberg, Ryne*
    5 Santo, Ron 	 2 Santop, Louis* 	 1 Schilling, Curt+ 	 9 Sheffield, Gary# 	 7 Simmons, Al*
    2 Simmons, Ted 	 9 Slaughter, Enos* 	 6 Smith, Ozzie* 	 1 Smoltz, John# 	 9 Sosa, Sammy+
    7 Stargell, Will*3 Start, Joe 	         3 Suttles, Mule* 	 1 Sutton, Don* 	 3 Thome, Jim#
    9 Thompson, Sam* 2 Torre, Joe 	         6 Trammell, Alan 	 1 Vance, Dazzy* 	 1 Waddell, Rube*
    1 Walsh, Ed* 	 6 Wells, Willie* 	 7 Wheat, Zack* 	 4 Whitaker, Lou 	 2 White, Deacon
    1 Wilhelm, Hoyt* 7 Williams, Billy* 	 5 Wilson, Jud* 	 9 Winfield, Dave* 	 1 Wynn, Early*
    (#201-300)
    6 Aparicio, Luis* - 8 Averill, Earl* - 5 Beckwith, John - 7 Belle, Albert - 2 Bennett, Charlie
    9 Bonds, Bobby - 5 Boyer, Ken - 2 Bresnahan, Roger* - 1 Bridges, Tommy - 7 Brock, Lou*
    1 Brown, Kevin+ - 1 Brown, Ray* - 8 Brown, Willard* - 8 Browning, Pete - 1 Bunning, Jim*
    9 Canseco, Jose - 1 Caruthers, Bob - 3 Chance, Frank* - 3 Clark, Will - 9 Cravath, Gavy
    5 Dandridge, Ray* - 8 Dawson, Andre - 1 Dean, Dizzy* - 4 Doerr, Bobby* - 4 Doyle, Larry
    8 Duffy, Hugh* - 8 Edmonds, Jim# - 5 Elliott, Bob - 9 Evans, Dwight - 1 Faber, Red*
    1 Ferrell, Wes - 9 Flick, Elmer* - 1 Foster, Bill* - 4 Fox, Nellie* - 2 Freehan, Bill
    1 Galvin, Pud* - 6 Glasscock, Jack - 8 Gore, George - 4 Grant, Frank* - 1 Griffith, Clark*
    1 Grimes, Burleigh* - 5 Groh, Heinie - 5 Hack, Stan - 3 Helton, Todd# - 3 Hernandez, Keith
    8 Hill, Pete* - 1 Hoffman, Trevor# - 7 Irvin, Monte* - 6 Jennings, Hughie* - 6 Johnson, Homerun
    7 Kelley, Joe* - 7 Kiner, Ralph* - 9 Klein, Chuck* - 5 Leach, Tommy - 1 Lemon, Bob*
    2 Lombardi, Ernie* - 1 Lyons, Ted* - 2 Mackey, Biz* - 6 Maranville, Rabbit* - 1 Mays, Carl
    1 McCormick, Jim - 1 McGinnity, Joe* - 4 McPhee, Bid* - 2 McVey, Cal - 1 Mendez, Jose*
    6 Moore, Dobie - 2 Munson, Thurman - 8 Murphy, Dale - 5 Nettles, Graig - 8 Oms, Alejandro
    9 Parker, Dave - 6 Pearce, Dickey - 3 Perez, Tony* - 1 Quisenberry, Dan - 7 Rice, Jim
    4 Richardson, Hardy - 1 Rixey, Eppa* - 5 Rolen, Scott# - 8 Roush, Edd* - 1 Santana, Johan#
    4 Schoendienst, Red* - 6 Sewell, Joe* - 3 Sisler, George* - 9 Smith, Reggie - 1 Spalding, Al*
    6 Stephens, Vern - 7 Stovey, Harry - 1 Sutter, Bruce* - 5 Sutton, Ezra - 9 Suzuki, Ichiro#
    3 Terry, Bill* - 5 Traynor, Pie* - 8 Van Haltren, George - 9 Walker, Larry+ - 6 Wallace, Bobby*
    6 Ward, John* - 8 Williams, Bernie+ - 1 Willis, Vic* - 8 Wilson, Hack* - 8 Wynn, Jimmy
    (#301-400)
    9 Arlett, Buzz - 5 Bando, Sal - 3 Beckley, Jake* - 5 Bell, Buddy - 1 Bender, Chief*
    8 Berger, Wally - 1 Bond, Tommy - 3 Bottomley, Jim* - 3 Cash, Norm - 5 Cey, Ron
    4 Childs, Cupid - 9 Colavito, Rocky - 6 Concepcion, Dave - 1 Cone, David - 2 Cooper, Walker
    1 Cooper, Wilbur - 1 Creighton, Jim - 5 Cross, Lave - 9 Cuyler, Kiki* - 1 Day, Leon*
    4 Dunlap, Fred - 4 Evers, Johnny* - 1 Franco, John+ - 6 Garciaparra, Nomar# - 3 Garvey, Steve
    3 Giambi, Jason# - 1 Gomez, Lefty* - 9 Gonzalez, Juan - 1 Guidry, Ron - 3 Hodges, Gil
    2 Howard, Elston - 1 Hunter, Catfish* - 1 John, Tommy - 7 Johnson, Bob - 7 Jones, Charley
    8 Jones, Fielder - 1 Joss, Addie* - 1 Kaat, Jim - 5 Kell, George* - 7 Keller, Charlie
    4 Lazzeri, Tony* - 8 Lofton, Kenny+ - 6 Long, Herman - 6 Lundy, Dick - 1 Luque, Dolf
    8 Lynn, Fred - 7 Manush, Heinie* - 3 Mattingly, Don - 4 Mazeroski, Bill* - 4 McAuliffe, Dick
    5 McGraw, John* - 2 McGuire, Deacon - 1 Morris, Jack - 1 Mullane, Tony - 4 Myer, Buddy
    1 Newcombe, Don - 7 O'Doul, Lefty - 3 Olerud, John+ - 9 Oliva, Tony - 8 Oliver, Al
    7 O'Neill, Tip - 2 Parrish, Lance - 1 Pennock, Herb* - 6 Pesky, Johnny - 1 Pierce, Billy
    8 Pike, Lip - 8 Pinson, Vada - 2 Posada, Jorge# - 3 Powell, Boog - 4 Pratt, Del
    4 Randolph, Willie - 1 Redding, Dick - 1 Reuschel, Rick - 9 Rice, Sam* - 6 Rizzuto, Phil*
    5 Rosen, Al - 8 Ryan, Jimmy - 1 Saberhagen, Bret - 2 Schalk, Ray* - 2 Schang, Wally
    7 Sheckard, Jimmy - 1 Shocker, Urban - 9 Singleton, Ken - 1 Smith, Hilton* - 1 Smith, Lee
    9 Staub, Rusty - 1 Stieb, Dave - 3 Taylor, Ben* - 1 Tekulve, Kent - 2 Tenace, Gene
    1 Tiant, Luis - 2 Trouppe, Quincy - 7 Veach, Bobby - 5 Ventura, Robin+ - 3 Vernon, Mickey
    1 Wagner, Billy# - 1 Walters, Bucky - 1 Warneke, Lon - 1 Welch, Mickey* - 5 Williams, Matt
    (#401-500)
    9 Abreu, Bobby#
    1 Adams, Babe
    1 Appier, Kevin
    9 Baines, Harold
    6 Bancroft, Dave*
    7 Berkman, Lance#
    1 Blue, Vida
    3 Bonilla, Bobby
    2 Boone, Bob
    1 Brecheen, Harry
    7 Burns, George J.
    8 Butler, Brett
    3 Camilli, Dolph
    6 Campaneris, Bert
    7 Carter, Joe
    8 Cedeno, Cesar
    1 Cicotte, Eddie+
    9 Clark, Jack
    5 Clarkson, Bus
    1 Cooper, Andy*
    7 Cruz, Jose
    6 Dark, Alvin
    2 Daulton, Darren
    8 DiMaggio, Dom
    3 Easter, Luke
    2 Farrell, Duke
    6 Fernandez, Tony
    1 Finley, Chuck
    7 Foster, George
    3 Fournier, Jack
    4 Franco, Julio+
    6 Fregosi, Jim
    5 Gaetti, Gary
    3 Galarraga, Andres+
    5 Gardner, Larry
    9 Giles, Brian#
    4 Gilliam, Jim
    7 Gonzalez, Luis#
    3 Grace, Mark
    1 Hahn, Noodles
    1 Halladay, Roy#
    5 Harrah, Toby
    1 Henke, Tom
    9 Herman, Babe
    1 Hershiser, Orel
    1 Hiller, John
    9 Hooper, Harry*
    7 Howard, Frank
    8 Hoy, Dummy
    1 Hoyt, Waite*
    1 Jackman, Bill
    8 Jones, Andruw#
    8 Kauff, Benny
    1 King, Silver
    2 Kling, Johnny
    4 Knoblauch, Chuck
    3 Konetchy, Ed
    1 Koosman, Jerry
    1 Leonard, Dutch
    1 Lolich, Mickey
    4 Lopes, Davey
    1 Lyle, Sparky
    5 Madlock, Bill
    1 Marberry, Firpo
    5 Marcelle, Ollie
    9 Maris, Roger
    5 Meyerle, Levi
    4 Monroe, Bill
    9 Murcer, Bobby
    9 O'Neill, Paul
    3 Ortiz, David#
    1 Oswalt, Roy#
    8 Otis, Amos
    4 Phillips, Tony
    8 Poles, Spot
    2 Porter, Darrell
    1 Quinn, Jack
    2 Radcliffe, Ted
    1 Reynolds, Allie
    4 Smith, Chino
    9 Strawberry, Darryl
    2 Sundberg, Jim
    1 Tanana, Frank
    6 Tejada, Miguel#
    8 Thomas, Roy
    9 Tiernan, Mike
    6 Tinker, Joe*
    1 Trout, Dizzy
    1 Trucks, Virgil
    1 Vaughn, Hippo
    6 Vizquel, Omar#
    1 Webb, Brandon#
    1 Wetteland, John
    4 White, Frank
    8 Williams, Cy
    7 Williams, Ken
    5 Williamson, Ned
    6 Wills, Maury
    1 Wood, Joe
    5 Yost, Eddie

    * = hall of famer
    # = active in 2008
    + = ineligible for HOF
    Last edited by Freakshow; 02-13-2009 at 06:15 AM.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  2. #2
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    1. Babe Ruth

    Classic is now on the clock
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  3. #3
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    Since we're supposed to wait an hour to encourage discussion, here's what my thoughts are regarding the best ever at each position:

    C - Bench
    1B - Gehrig
    2B - Collins/Hornsby
    3B - Schmidt
    SS - Wagner
    LF - Bonds
    CF - Cobb
    RF - Ruth
    P - Clemens

    So who's #2 overall? I've got three candidates: Bonds, Cobb and Wagner. I've argued for Wagner over Cobb before, but I just don't think so now which really leaves Cobb vs. Bonds. At this level, the tiniest thing can move someone down up or down the board. Bonds' steroid use (though I don't count against him for HOF purposes) is a factor in determining whether he was really greater than Cobb. And, unfortunately for Barry, I've got to give Cobb the nod because of it.

    So that puts Cobb at #2. Is he really more deserving than Ruth of #1 though? I'm leaning towards "no" but it's awfully close. Ruth's pitching resume is just a huge plus in determining talent/production from each and they were close enough as contemporaries that I'm not going to give Cobb a mental break here because he didn't play in the 20s until he was later on in years.

    On the other hand, Cobb was largely hailed as the better player back when both players were still living. How much of the difference between these two is actual value versus perceived value and how much is the difference between the two types of games they played? I dunno, but I've got a little less than an hour to figure it out.
    Last edited by Brad Harris; 08-08-2008 at 09:45 AM.
    "What is not discussed, will not be advanced." -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    "They didn't call amphetamines 'ability pills' because they allowed you to re-roll your AD&D character sheet." -- Dan Szymborski

  4. #4
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    No! I demand a re-rank already. Cobb has an easy Top Ten argument, and a very credible Top 5 argument, but not Top 2. Better than Wagner? Better than Mays? I also think Josh Gibson and Ted Williams aren't stretches for that spot. Frankly, I'd put Cobb at about fourth. Mays & Wagner are absolutely better in my eyes.
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  5. #5
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    For this first round, we'll waive the one hour wait requirement, just to get things going. However, after the first rotation, Gamers are expected to wait at least an hour (57 minutes, actually) after the previous turn.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  6. #6
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    Oh to heck with it...

    1. Ty Cobb (sorry, I had to remove Ruth - 1st time)

    dgarza is now on the clock
    "What is not discussed, will not be advanced." -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    "They didn't call amphetamines 'ability pills' because they allowed you to re-roll your AD&D character sheet." -- Dan Szymborski

  7. #7
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    I can see Wagner, but I personally have Cobb #2. So you won't see a removal from me.

    EDIT: Well, now I'll have to reinstate Ruth if dgarza doesn't.

  8. #8
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    Ok, so Classic posted Cobb before he was supposed to. Then I responded that I didn't agree with Ty at #2. Then Classic was allowed to re-post his pick in order to get things going in the first round, removed Ruth, and placed Cobb at the top. This project is off to a start.

    Classic, what made you want to buck the consensus?
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  9. #9
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    Personally, I usually rank Mays #2 over Wagner and Cobb, due to league quality issues. Another strike against Cobb is that, using HOF criteria he suffers in the character and leadership sorts of areas.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  10. #10
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    Considering how this project works, Cobb may end up lower now than Classic intended. Surely, the next guy (dgarza) will chuck Ruth at the top. Then, if the next person doesn't put Cobb at #2, Classic potentially ends up having wasted his pick. There's definitely a strategy to this in order to have at least some things go your way, if not all.

    If it's of any use, here's my position bests:

    C - Gibson
    1B - Gehrig
    2B - Hornsby
    SS - Wagner
    3B - Schmidt
    RF - Ruth
    CF - Mays
    LF - T Williams
    P - W Johnson

    Oh, and Erik, you need to check your PMs. Very important.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Bedard View Post
    I can see Wagner, but I personally have Cobb #2. So you won't see a removal from me.

    EDIT: Well, now I'll have to reinstate Ruth if dgarza doesn't.
    dgarza's options:
    1 - Add a player at #2 after Cobb
    2 - Reinstate Ruth at #2 and add another player at #3
    3 - Remove Cobb and put another player in his place at #1
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  12. #12
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    Let's say dgarza puts Ruth in at #2. Can I remove Cobb from #1 and put in Cobb at #2?

  13. #13
    So what about this :

    In actual play, I would hope that the Remove option would only be used for players you think are listed significantly early, and not to replace guys you have coming up soon in your queue anyway. See the introductory thread for an example of the sequence of play.

    Ruth has already been planned to be removed, but it's not like he's significantly early at #1.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    Another strike against Cobb is that, using HOF criteria he suffers in the character and leadership sorts of areas.
    That sure didn't play out in the BBWAA voting in 1936 when Cobb received more votes than Ruth. Surely those voters were in a better position to observe and possess first-hand knowledge of both players than we are. I have a very strong impression that the majority of observers who watched both men play picked Cobb over Ruth as the greatest they ever saw.

    And whatever "character" or "leadership" - two very broadly defined terms so far as the HOF is concerned - issues Cobb had, they certainly weren't felt to be hindrances to his team's success. Cobb was hired to manage the Tigers at the age of 34! No less a gentleman than Connie Mack hired Ty Cobb to help turn his A's back into contenders in 1927-28 before Cobb finally hung up his spikes for good. Fans erupted in effusive praise for Cobb in his first game in Detroit after signing with Philadelphia. These don't seem like the kinds of things you'd expect of someone with "character" and "leadership" problems.

    Furthermore, I think Cobb brought an element of intimidation to his opponents that is very likely unmatched in influence in baseball history.

    Perhaps it boils down to me preferring the kind of game Cobb played over the kind Ruth brought to baseball, but in the end, I feel better going with Cobb, regardless of what subsequent players decide to do.
    "What is not discussed, will not be advanced." -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    "They didn't call amphetamines 'ability pills' because they allowed you to re-roll your AD&D character sheet." -- Dan Szymborski

  15. #15
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    dgarza, different standards should apply early in the game, particularly for the Top 10. I think Freakshow's talking more about the difference between a player being #260 or #270....not much of a difference, as long as we're making the right sort of groupings around that point. As I predicted in the startup thread, the earliest rounds will have a lot of re-ranking whereas people won't care much later on unless a pick is absolutely absurd.
    1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

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  16. #16
    I would like to request to have the rules/schedule/etc stickied

    so that we don't have to dig them out

  17. #17
    1. Babe Ruth (sorry, I had to remove Cobb - 1st time)

    Erik Bedard is on the clock
    Last edited by dgarza; 08-08-2008 at 10:36 AM.

  18. #18
    Maybe we'll only get 2 players listed at the end of Round 1.
    ????

  19. #19
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    1. Babe Ruth
    2. Ty Cobb

    Freakshow is now on the clock

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Bedard View Post
    Let's say dgarza puts Ruth in at #2. Can I remove Cobb from #1 and put in Cobb at #2?
    Reading the rules literally, nothing says that the guy you add can't be the one you just removed. So, yes, that would be allowed.

    Oh, and Classic is playing by the rules. If he thinks Cobb is #1, well that's not really such an isolated point of view. It's up to the following Gamers to let that stand, or not.

    OTOH, unless Classic thinks Ruth was seriously overranked, he should not have replaced him. As I wrote in the lead thread:

    we should maintain a spirit of cooperation. We’re working together to produce the very best rankings that we can.
    Last edited by Freakshow; 08-08-2008 at 11:01 AM.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  21. #21
    Stop the clock ...I messed up...I think

  22. #22
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    One more thing we should do in this first round, since the posts and edits are flying hot and fast:

    When you post your turn, Quote the previous turn.

    Thank you.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  23. #23
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    --I suggest that removals of Ruth from the #1 spot are pretty much a waste of time. I agree that there are several other very reasonable choices for the best ever, but there is such a strong consenus for him there that removing him will, for practical purposes, only get the project off to a slow start. I'd say that in the early going removals might be best used if you think someone is overrated by at least 5 spots. As we progress then that might drop to 10 or even 20 as the difference are smaller and the rank matters less (is say 62 really more prestigous than 75 or 150 more than 170?).

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Stop the clock ...I messed up...I think
    Edit post #17 with your turn.

    Then, if that changes Erik's turn, he can edit #19.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Stop the clock ...I messed up...I think
    Never mind...I didn't mess up...I reposted my old post. What I did was within rules. i just need to get used to how the options work.
    If I had reinstated, Cobb would have still been #1, and I wanted Ruth #1.

    Sorry

    Everything should still be the same

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