View Poll Results: PLEASE READ RULES, LIMIT TO 15 VOTES, AND POST BALLOT IN THREAD

Voters
26. You may not vote on this poll
  • Jack Beckley, 1B (1888-1907) - 3rd Year

    19 73.08%
  • Frank Bowerman, C (1895-1909) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Cupid Childs, 2B (1888, 1890-1901) - 9th Year

    13 50.00%
  • Larry Corcoran, SP (1880-1887) - 14th Year

    4 15.38%
  • Lave Cross, 3B (1887-1907) - 3rd Year

    5 19.23%
  • George Davis, SS (1890-1909) - 1st Year

    22 84.62%
  • Bill Dinneen, SP (1898-1909) - 1st Year

    1 3.85%
  • Hugh Duffy, CF/OF (1888-1901, 1904-1906) - 4th Year

    14 53.85%
  • Hobe Ferris, 2B (1901-1909) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Chick Fraser, SP (1896-1909) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Kid Gleason, 2B (1888-1908, 1912) - 2nd Year

    0 0%
  • Frank Isbell, 1B/2B (1898, 1901-1909) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Hughie Jennings, SS (1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912) - 1st Year

    13 50.00%
  • Charley Jones, LF (1875-1880, 1883-1888) - 14th Year

    8 30.77%
  • Fielder Jones, CF (1896-1908) - 2nd Year

    3 11.54%
  • Joe Kelley, LF (1891-1906, 1908) - 2nd Year

    13 50.00%
  • Herman Long, SS (1889-1904) - 6th Year

    11 42.31%
  • Bobby Lowe, 2B (1890-1907) - 3rd Year

    1 3.85%
  • Jim McCormick, SP (1878-1887) - 14th Year

    6 23.08%
  • John McGraw, 3B (1891-1906) - 4th Year

    11 42.31%
  • Deacon McGuire, C (1884-1888, 1890-1908, 1910, 1912) - 2nd Year

    1 3.85%
  • Cal McVey, C/1B (1871-1879) - 14th Year

    9 34.62%
  • Jack O'Connor, C (1887-1904, 1906-1907, 1910) - 1st Year

    1 3.85%
  • Al Orth, SP (1895-1909) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Lip Pike, CF (1871-1878, 1881, 1887) - 14th Year

    12 46.15%
  • Hardy Richardson, 2B/LF (1879-1892) - 14th Year

    18 69.23%
  • Claude Ritchey, 2B (1897-1909) - 1st Year

    1 3.85%
  • Jimmy Ryan, CF (1885-1903) - 7th Year

    9 34.62%
  • Al Spalding, SP (1871-1877) - 14th Year

    19 73.08%
  • Joe Start, 1B (1871-1886) - 14th Year

    14 53.85%
  • Ezra Sutton, 3B (1871-1888) - 14th Year

    12 46.15%
  • Mike Tiernan, RF (1887-1899) - 10th Year

    7 26.92%
  • George Van Haltren, CF (1887-1903) - 7th Year

    18 69.23%
  • John Warner, C (1895-1908) - 2nd Year

    0 0%
  • Mickey Welch, SP (1880-1892) - 14th Year

    14 53.85%
  • Jimmy Williams, 2B (1899-1909) - 1st Year

    2 7.69%
  • None of the Above (Blank Ballot)

    1 3.85%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1914

  1. #1

    BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1914

    PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

    Format and Rules
    Voting Rules: Until further notice, voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
    - NOTE: After 1915, voters may only vote for between 0-10 candidates.

    Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

    Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

    Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
    - Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

    Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


    1914 Guide
    There are 36 candidates on the 1914 ballot; 25 holdovers and 11 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1909 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

    First Timers (11)
    Frank Bowerman
    George Davis
    Bill Dinneen
    Hobe Ferris – 3000 AB Rule
    Chick Fraser
    Frank Isbell
    Hughie Jennings – Age Rule
    Jack O’Connor – Age Rule
    Al Orth
    Claude Ritchey
    Jimmy Williams

    Holdovers (25)
    Code:
    Player			Year of Eligibility	Previous Support	High Support
    Jake Beckley		3rd			73.91%			73.91% (1913)
    Cupid Childs		9th			56.52%			56.52% (1913)
    Larry Corcoran		14th			13.04%			18.18% (1909)	
    Lave Cross		3rd			26.09%			30.43% (1912)
    Hugh Duffy		4th			60.87%			65.22% (1912)
    Kid Gleason		2nd			4.35%			4.35% (1913)
    Charley Jones		14th			34.78%			34.78% (1913)	
    Fielder Jones		2nd			8.70%			8.70% (1913)
    Joe Kelley		2nd			47.83%			47.83% (1913)
    Herman Long		6th			56.52%			56.52% (1913)
    Bobby Lowe		3rd			8.70%			9.09% (1913)
    Jim McCormick		14th			30.43%			40.00% (1910)
    John McGraw		3rd			39.13%			47.83% (1912)
    Deacon McGuire		2nd			4.35%			4.35% (1913)
    Cal McVey		14th			39.13%			56.52% (1909) 
    Lip Pike		14th			47.83%			56.52% (1909)
    Hardy Richardson	14th			69.57%			69.57% (1913)
    Jimmy Ryan		7th			47.83%			48.00% (1908)
    Al Spalding		14th			69.57%			73.91% (1912)
    Joe Start		14th			47.83%			65.22% (1912)
    Ezra Sutton		14th			56.52%			62.50% (1905)
    Mike Tiernan		10th			21.74%			22.73% (1913)
    George Van Haltren	7th			65.22%			69.57% (1912)
    John Warner		2nd			4.35%			4.35% (1913)
    Mickey Welch		14th			34.78%			52.00% (1910)
    Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (8)
    Code:
    Player			1912 Support	Years with At Least 50% Support
    Jake Beckley		73.91%		2
    Hardy Richardson	69.57%		10
    Al Spalding		69.57%		9
    George Van Haltren	65.22%		6
    Hugh Duffy		60.87%		3
    Cupid Childs		56.52%		4
    Herman Long		56.52%		2
    Ezra Sutton		56.52%		7
    Hall of “Almost” - Players Receiving At Least 2/3 Support in an Election But Never Elected (4)
    Code:
    Player			High Support	“Almost Years”	Last Year on Ballot
    Jake Beckley		73.91% (1913)	1
    Al Spalding		73.91% (1912)	3
    Hardy Richardson	69.57% (1912)	2
    George Van Haltren	69.57% (1912)	2
    Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (2)
    Code:
    Player			Reason			Years on Ballot		High Support
    Tommy Corcoran		Lack of Support		2			4.35% (1912) 
    Noodles Hahn		Lack of Support		3			13.04% (1912)
    Last Year of Eligibility (0)

    Penultimate Year of Eligibility (10)
    Code:
    Player	High Support
    Larry Corcoran		18.18% (1909)	
    Charley Jones		32.00% (1910, 1911)
    Jim McCormick		40.00% (1910)
    Cal McVey		56.52% (1909)
    Lip Pike		56.52% (1909)
    Hardy Richardson	69.57% (1913)
    Al Spalding		73.91% (1912)
    Joe Start		65.22% (1912)
    Ezra Sutton		62.50% (1905)
    Mickey Welch		52.00% (1910)

    Hall of Famers

    Players Elected (31)
    Code:
    Player			Year Elected	Election Percentage	Years on Ballot		Position		Primary Team			Active Years			Total Seasons
    Cap Anson		1902		100%			1			First Base		Chicago White Stockings (NL)	1871-1897			27		
    Ross Barnes		1911		76.00%			11			Second Base		Boston Red Stockings (NA)	1871-1879, 1881			9
    Charlie Bennett		1907		75.00%			7			Catcher			Detroit Wolverines (NL)		1878, 1880-1893			15
    Pete Browning		1909		77.27%			9			Center Field/Left Field	Louisville Colonels (NL/AA)	1882-1894			13
    Dan Brouthers		1901		90.00%			1			First Base		Buffalo Bisons (NL)		1879-1896, 1904			18
    Jesse Burkett		1910		92.00%			1			Left field		Cleveland Spiders (NL)		1890-1905			16
    Bob Caruthers		1909		77.27%			9			Pitcher/Right Field	St. Louis Browns (NL/AA)	1884-1893			10
    John Clarkson		1901		90.00%			1			Pitcher			Boston Beaneaters (NL)		1882, 1884-1894			12
    Jimmy Collins		1913		82.61%			1			Third Base		Boston Americans (AL)		1895-1908			14
    Roger Conner		1902		79.17%			1			First Base		New York Giants (NL)		1880-1897			18
    Ed Delahanty		1908		96.00%			1			Left Field		Philadelphia Phillies (NL)	1888-1903			16
    Buck Ewing		1902		83.33%			1			Catcher			New York Giants (NL)		1880-1897			18
    Pud Galvin		1903		80.77%			3			Pitcher			Buffalo Bisons (NL)		1875, 1879-1892			15	
    Jack Glasscock		1911		84.00%			11			Shortstop		Cleveland Blues (NL)		1879-1895			17
    George Gore		1909		77.27%			9			Center Field		Chicago White Stockings (NL)	1879-1892			14
    Billy Hamilton		1906		82.61%			1			Center Field		Philadelphia Phillies (NL)	1888-1901			14
    Paul Hines		1904		76.00%			4			Center Field		Providence Grays (NL)		1872-1891			20
    Tim Keefe		1901		75.00%			1			Pitcher			New York Giants (NL)		1880-1893			14
    King Kelly		1902		75.00%			2			Right Field/Catcher	Chicago White Stockings (NL)	1878-1893			16
    Joe McGinnity		1913		91.30%			1			Pitcher			New York Giants (NL)		1899-1908			10
    Bid McPhee		1905		75.00%			2			Second Base		Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA)		1882-1899			18
    Tony Mullane		1908		80.00%			8			Pitcher			Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA)		1881-1894			14
    Kid Nichols		1911		100%			1			Pitcher			Boston Beaneaters (NL)		1890-1901, 1904-1906		15
    Jim O’Rourke		1901		90.00%			1			Left Field/Utility	New York Giants (NL)		1872-1893, 1904			23
    Charley Radbourn	1901		95.00%			1			Pitcher			Providence Grays (NL)		1881-1891			11
    Amos Rusie		1906		78.26%			1			Pitcher			New York Giants (NL)		1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901	10
    Harry Stovey		1907		75.00%			7			Left Field/First Base	Philadelphia Athletics (AA)	1880-1893			14
    Sam Thompson		1907		79.17%			5			Right Field		Philadelphia Phillies (NL)	1885-1898, 1906			15
    John Ward		1907		75.00%			7			Shortstop/Pitcher	New York Giants (NL)		1878-1894			17
    Deacon White		1904		76.00%			4			Catcher/Third Base	Buffalo Bisons (NL)		1871-1890			20
    George Wright		1907		75.00%			7			Shortstop		Boston Red Stockings (NA)	1871-1882			12
    Players Elected by Primary Position
    Catcher (3): Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing, Deacon White
    First Base (3): Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner
    Second Base (2): Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee
    Third Base (1): Jimmy Collins
    Shortstop (3): Jack Glasscock, John Ward, George Wright
    Left Field (4): Jesse Burkett, Ed Delahanty, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey
    Center Field (4): Pete Browning, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines
    Right Field (2): King Kelly, Sam Thompson
    Pitcher (9): Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Tim Keefe, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie

    Players Elected by Year
    1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
    1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
    1903 (1): Pud Galvin
    1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
    1905 (1): Bid McPhee
    1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
    1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
    1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
    1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
    1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
    1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
    1912 (0):
    1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity

    First Balloters (15)
    Code:
    Player			Year Elected
    Cap Anson		1902
    Dan Brouthers		1901
    Jesse Burkett		1910
    John Clarkson		1901
    Jimmy Collins		1913
    Roger Conner		1902
    Ed Delahanty		1908
    Buck Ewing		1902
    Billy Hamilton		1906
    Tim Keefe		1901
    Jim O’Rourke		1901
    Joe McGinnity		1913
    Kid Nichols		1911
    Charley Radbourn	1901
    Amos Rusie		1906

    Miscellaneous Information
    - Highest Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Kid Nichols – 100%
    - Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 15
    - Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 8
    - Most Years on Ballot Before Election: 11 – Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock
    - Most Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
    - Fewest Electees in One Year: 0 (1912)
    - Average Electees Per Year: 2.39
    - Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
    - Smallest Ballot: 27 Players (1908)
    - Most Votes Cast: 26 (1903)
    - Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
    - Average Votes Cast: 23
    - Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 7
    - Team With Second Most Players Elected: Buffalo Bisons, Philadelphia Phillies, Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings) - 3
    - Electee with Longest Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
    - Electee with Shortest Career: Ross Barnes – 9 Seasons
    - Average Career Length of Electees: 15.29 Seasons
    - Highest Election Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Jake Beckley, Al Spalding – 73.91%

    Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
    1901: 20
    1902: 24
    1903: 26
    1904: 25
    1905: 24
    1906: 23
    1907: 24
    1908: 25
    1909: 22
    1910: 25
    1911: 25
    1912: 23
    1913: 23

    Links to Past Elections (10)
    1901
    1902
    1903
    1904
    1905
    1906
    1907
    1908
    1909
    1910
    1911
    1912
    1913
    Last edited by DoubleX; 08-13-2008 at 08:45 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    916

    my two cents worth

    1B Beckley
    SS Davis
    3B Cross
    CF Duffy
    CF Ryan
    CF Van Haltren
    SP Welch
    SP McCormick

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    D-town, MI
    Posts
    5,880
    Blog Entries
    9

    1914 Ballot

    Collins and McGinnity are replaced by Davis and Jennings.

    Beckley
    Childs
    G. Davis
    Duffy
    Jennings
    C. Jones
    J. Kelley
    McVey
    Pike
    Richardson
    Ryan
    Spalding
    Start
    Sutton
    Van Haltren
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,376
    Blog Entries
    34
    Childs
    G. Davis
    Duffy
    Kelley
    Long
    Richardson
    Spalding
    Start
    Sutton
    Van Haltren
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    10,100
    Beckley
    Childs
    Davis
    Duffy
    J. Kelley
    McGraw
    Richardson
    Ryan
    Spalding
    Tiernan
    Van Haltren
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

  6. #6
    Here is a preliminary ballot. I have not voted yet and I expected to vote also for one or more of Joe Kelley and Co.

    Jake Beckley
    Cupid Childs
    Lave Cross
    George Davis
    Hughie Jennings
    Herman Long
    John McGraw
    Cal McVey
    Hardy Richardson
    Al Spalding
    Joe Start
    Ezra Sutton

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    mariners country
    Posts
    23,578
    George Davis, SS (1890-1909) - 1st Year 5 83.33%
    Hughie Jennings, SS (1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912) - 1st Year 3 50.00%
    Herman Long, SS (1889-1904) - 6th Year 3 50.00%
    John McGraw, 3B (1891-1906) - 4th Year 3 50.00%
    Cal McVey, C/1B (1871-1879) - 14th Year 2 33.33%
    Hardy Richardson, 2B/LF (1879-1892) - 14th Year 4 66.67%
    Al Spalding, SP (1871-1877) - 14th Year 5 83.33%
    Ezra Sutton, 3B (1871-1888) - 14th Year 3 50.00%


    --Two chances left for Al Spaulding. I'd really like to see him make it as a regular selection instead of sliding to the VC.
    --George Davis is an easy addition to my ballot. Jennings a little less so, but until we get a little better infield/outfield balance my standards will be more lenient for infielders. Jennings did have one heck of a peak.
    --Long, McGraw and Richardson return to my ballot, although I'm really onthe fence with all three. A good argument against could bump them by next year (well probably not Hardy, since it will be his last chance). McGraw may be best served as a VC candidate and the sooner he drops off the regular ballot the sooner he can be considered there.
    --McVey and Sutton have been on my ballot a long time and I'll stick with them 2 more until their eligibility runs out. Neither seems very likely to make a late run though. Collins just squeaking in last year does not bode well for Ezra and McVey is just too far away to close the gap.

  8. #8
    Jake Beckley
    Cupid Childs
    Larry Corcoran
    George Davis
    Bill Dinneen
    Hughie Jennings
    Charley Jones
    Lip Pike
    Hardy Richardson
    Al Spalding
    Joe Start
    Ezra Sutton

    Gone from my ballot:

    Lave Cross
    Herman Long

    Going next year unless someone convinces me otherwise:

    Cupid Childs
    Bill Dinneen
    Hughie Jennings

    There's a whole bunch of outfielders bunched together in career value and in votes. Does anyone want to weigh in on why I should vote for Duffy/Ryan/VanHaltren/J.Kelley/Tiernen?
    Last edited by jjpm74; 08-14-2008 at 09:13 AM.

  9. #9
    Jake Beckley
    Larry Corcoran
    George Davis
    Hugh Duffy
    Charley Jones
    Joe Kelley
    Jim McCormick
    Cal McVey
    Lip Pike
    Hardy Richardson
    Jimmy Ryan
    Al Spalding
    Mike Tiernan
    George Van Haltren
    Mickey Welch


    1. Al Spalding
    2. Hugh Duffy
    3. Jim McCormick
    4. Mickey Welch
    5. Cal McVey
    6. George Davis
    7. George Van Haltren
    8. Jake Beckley
    9. Joe Kelley
    10. Hardy Richardson
    11. Lip Pike
    12. Jimmy Ryan
    13. Mike Tiernan
    14. Charley Jones
    15. Larry Corcoran

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,492
    Blog Entries
    4
    Beckley
    Childs
    Cross
    Davis
    Long
    McGraw
    Pike
    Richardson
    Ryan
    Spalding
    Start
    Tiernan
    Van Haltren
    Welch

    I only added George Davis. Duffy seems like a good player with one out of hand season so I can't see voting for him. Though how back in 1914 would they have felt about not having the man with the highest single season batting average out of the "Hall" I cannot say.

  11. #11
    Jake Beckley - Despite coming just minutes away from election last time, I'm really not optimistic for his election any time soon.

    George Davis - Clearly best SS thus far.

    Joe Kelley - I'm on the fence with him and could drop him in any year.

    Jim McCormick

    Cal McVey - He deserves better.

    Hardy Richardson - He's been so close for so long but there's been very little talk about him. Perhaps with 2 years left, it's time?

    Jimmy Ryan - Still don't get why Duffy and Van Haltren are so far ahead when Ryan was arguably the best of the 3.

    Joe Start - He made great progress in 1912, only to take a big step back last year.

    Ezra Sutton - Should have been elected years ago. It's pretty disgraceful that in a 40 year period of baseball history, we have just 1 3Bman.

    Mike Tiernan - I've been on the fence with him for a long time and I suppose I keep voting for him because I've been too lazy to reexamine again (I did once, and that resulted in me voting for him, but I've felt like I should do it again).

    George Van Haltren - I have a feeling he'll make it one day.

    Mickey Welch - I promised I wouldn't say anything else.

    Jimmy Williams - I don't necessarily support him, but I thought he deserved a second look. He's similar to Ed McKean, IMO, who didn't deserve to be dropped by us especially given our emphasis on offense.

    Just a reminder everyone, after next year, we'll likely be going to 10 votes. I think it's easy to justify this because we'll be losing the last 10 of the original players, so ballots will likely be between 20-25 players in many years. Doesn't seem to make sense to potentially be voting for 2/3 of the ballot.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    mariners country
    Posts
    23,578
    --I still don't understand why Van Haltren has emerged as the favorite from a pack of similar outfielders. He is no better than Ryan or Duffy or Tiernan or Kelley. Well maybe better than Tiernan, but not as good as Kelley. Either I'm missing something or he is a guy who is going to set the bar low enough to make every pretty good outfielder who hits the ballot looks like a Hall of Famer.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --I still don't understand why Van Haltren has emerged as the favorite from a pack of similar outfielders. He is no better than Ryan or Duffy or Tiernan or Kelley. Well maybe better than Tiernan, but not as good as Kelley. Either I'm missing something or he is a guy who is going to set the bar low enough to make every pretty good outfielder who hits the ballot looks like a Hall of Famer.
    Even though I'm voting for him, I don't understand it either. His name is pretty cool which might subliminally be affecting people. However, I think he's part of my theory that we seem to over-support those guys on the outside of the actual Hall that we consider as among the better players outside, while we under-support those guys on the inside of the actual Hall that we consider as among the lower players on the inside. This is why I think Mickey Welch is interesting. He's a lower player on the inside, and I think that subconsciously has affected some of his voting, but when he's not elected, I think in a hypothetical future where people like us are debating on web boards, he'd transform into one of those players that's talked about a lot as an omission, and I think just because of that, he would then get more support if those hypothetical people in that hypothetical future conducted a hypothetical project like this, hypothetically.

    As for applying the theory to Haltren, remember the Suburbs project you conducted - Haltren was a very early pick if memory serves. So there is just a general perception out there that he's among the better players outside, and I think we subconsciously overcompensate when given a chance for those players.

    Look at Bert Blyleven, he will probably be a 1st balloter here, and many us will be drooling at having the opportunity to vote for Blyleven, as if for just a moment we can right some great wrong. But assuming a 1st ballot election is a special honor, if we look at things objectively, is Blyleven really on that level? Hall of Famer, yes. Elite, no. So basically I believe with certain players, namely the best on the outside and the worst on the inside, we're unable to be objective.

  14. #14
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    --I agree that is the case. Maybe its the main difference between Welch and Mullane. Doesn't explain the disparity between VanHaltren and Ryan though. They are extremely similar, but GVH looks to have a strong chance at election, while Ryan appears to have very little chance. Maybe it is just the catchy name for one and the broign one for the other. I'd like to think we are better than that though.
    --As for first ballot that is only a factor for me if I already have a full ballot - which has not been the case for several years for me. I won't bump someone for a borderline candidate, even if the new guy is marginally better than someone at the bottom of my ballot. If I have room though I'll vote for a guy a believe is just barely a Hall of Famer the first time up, same as an inner circle guy. McGinnity, for example, I see as a lower level Hall of Famer, but the space was available on my ballot when he came up. I was surprised when he stayed at 100% so long, but don't see that or his first ballot status as particularly noteworthy.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --I agree that is the case. Maybe its the main difference between Welch and Mullane. Doesn't explain the disparity between VanHaltren and Ryan though. They are extremely similar, but GVH looks to have a strong chance at election, while Ryan appears to have very little chance. Maybe it is just the catchy name for one and the broign one for the other. I'd like to think we are better than that though.
    --As for first ballot that is only a factor for me if I already have a full ballot - which has not been the case for several years for me. I won't bump someone for a borderline candidate, even if the new guy is marginally better than someone at the bottom of my ballot. If I have room though I'll vote for a guy a believe is just barely a Hall of Famer the first time up, same as an inner circle guy. McGinnity, for example, I see as a lower level Hall of Famer, but the space was available on my ballot when he came up. I was surprised when he stayed at 100% so long, but don't see that or his first ballot status as particularly noteworthy.
    I don't get why Ryan is lacking so much in comparison either, and I'm actually surprised that Duffy is getting such strong support given that he is one of those weaker real Hall players. I would really love to hear from people though that are voting for Van Haltren but not Ryan. The two are really close together and I think Ryan has very good arguments for being better.

    I don't vote based on which ballot I feel a player should be elected either, but I think as a consensus we do set some standards for whether a player is a 1st balloter or not. Given that less than 50% of our electees have been elected on the 1st ballot, it doe seems to be something of an honor.

    Anyway, I do feel that a lack of objectivity is something of a problem here, and it's something that probably can't be overcome. I'm just hoping people are doing their best to put a player into the context of their era and the history of the game up to that time, while ignoring what they know about the real Hall and the next 90 years or so of baseball history. This doesn't mean that I don't want people using modern statistical evaluations, as such is helpful in the evaluation process, I just don't want people voting or not voting for people because they don't measure up to their 2008 standards. I want us to act like we're totally ignorant of everything that has yet to come in baseball, just as we're ignorant now of what the next 100 years will look like. Easier said than done though.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --I still don't understand why Van Haltren has emerged as the favorite from a pack of similar outfielders. He is no better than Ryan or Duffy or Tiernan or Kelley. Well maybe better than Tiernan, but not as good as Kelley. Either I'm missing something or he is a guy who is going to set the bar low enough to make every pretty good outfielder who hits the ballot looks like a Hall of Famer.
    Van Haltren hasn't emerged, he was nearly elected as soon as eligible. He and Duffy and Kelley are in the BBFHOF.

    GVH has sky-high career win shares, up there with Rusty Staub and Dwight Evans. The average schedule was 140 games during his career; he is up there thanks to three early seasons as a mediocre pitcher.

    GVH, Ryan, and Duffy were strong contenders for several years over at the Hall of Merit but Ryan eventually dropped off the charts. Frequently a Van Haltren knocker and occasionally a Ryan supporter would ask why. Ryan put up most of his best seasons earlier, during the AA era. During his thirties he approached closer to mediocre than Van Haltren ever did as a batter/runner. Ryan left centerfield; so did Duffy. But they played beside Bill Lange and Billy Hamilton. Bill James grades them B+ and A+ despite the time in left and grades Van Haltren only B, which is below average to poor in center.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 08-14-2008 at 10:43 AM.

  17. #17
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    Beckley, Davis, Spalding and Welch

    I've been voting for Spalding and Welch since the beginning of this project. I'd like to see them get over the hump. I have hopes for Spalding, but almost no hoep for Welch.

    Welch - when we started this project in 1901, Welch was 6th all-time in wins. 3rd all-time in shutouts. 4th all-time in strikeouts. 4th all-time in innings pitched. 3rd in complete games. I find it hard to believe that someone making a decision at that point in time would have left him out.

    Today (1914) he is 8th all-time in wins. 15th all-time in shutouts. 9th all-time in strikeouts. 6th all-time in innings pitched. 5th in complete games. he's slipped a little, but with 14 more years of players, his counting totals still hold up. And he played a lot of his career with shorter seasons.

    I know people are not a big fan of the wins stat, but back then players finished their games (Welch finished 95.6% of the games he started), so the wins stat meant more than it does in the 21st century. I just can't ignore a guy with 307 wins over essentially 11 seasons, including a 44 win season and 3 more 30+ win season

    Spalding - with that pitching peak, I can't ingore him, even if his career was quite a bit shorter than I'd like.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    I only added George Davis. Duffy seems like a good player with one out of hand season so I can't see voting for him. Though how back in 1914 would they have felt about not having the man with the highest single season batting average out of the "Hall" I cannot say.
    Duffy's offensive explosion came in 1893-1895. In 1893, the pitching mound moved back to its modern distance and many pitchers struggled with the new distance. Duffy's batting average ballooned during those 1st three years. Outside of that 3 year offensive explosion, he was an average ball player. I have no idea why he is getting so much support around here. Duffy is the weakest candidate of the Duffy/Ryan/VanHaltren/J.Kelley/Tiernen set. He'll have to get in without my support.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    GVH has sky-high career win shares, up there with Rusty Staub and Dwight Evans. The average schedule was 140 games during his career; he is up there thanks to three early seasons as a mediocre pitcher.
    --Right up there with Rusty Staub and Dwight Evans? That doesn't exactly scream Hall of Famer to me.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Duffy's offensive explosion came in 1893-1895. In 1893, the pitching mound moved back to its modern distance and many pitchers struggled with the new distance. Duffy's batting average ballooned during those 1st three years. Outside of that 3 year offensive explosion, he was an average ball player. I have no idea why he is getting so much support around here. Duffy is the weakest candidate of the Duffy/Ryan/VanHaltren/J.Kelley/Tiernen set. He'll have to get in without my support.
    Duffy also played less than 40% of his games in CF, which, IMO should be a huge knock against him when comparing him to Van Haltren and Ryan, who both spent significantly more time in CF. Duffy also had the shortest career and the least impressive counting numbers of the three. IMO, he's clearly the third of the group. Of those three, it's worth noting that Ryan, by a hair, has the highest OPS+, and in the most PAs.

  21. #21
    Here the honored players are listed by fielding position, then order of election.
    Code:
    LF		CF		RF
    O'Rourke	Hines		Kelly -c
    Stovey -1b	Hamilton	Thompson
    Delahanty	Browning -lf
    Burkett		Gore
    
    3B		SS		2B		1B
    Collins		Ward -p-o-2	McPhee		Anson
    		Wright		Barnes		Brouthers
    		Glasscock			Connor
    P
    Clarkson
    Keefe
    Radbourn
    Galvin
    Rusie		C
    Mullane		Ewing
    Caruthers -of	White -3b
    Nichols		Bennett
    McGinnity
    The markup puts them in rough chronological classes: first bold, then plain, then underline. So the pitchers number 0 of 6 from the earliest class, 6 of 18 (7 of 18 with Ward), and 3 of 7.

    Leading incumbents (50% support)
    Spalding, p
    Sutton, 3b

    Richardson, 2b
    Beckley, 1b
    Childs, 2b
    Duffy, cf
    Long, ss
    Van Haltren, cf
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 08-14-2008 at 09:48 AM.

  22. #22
    I feel like there should be more discussion about Hardy Richardson. He's reached as high as approximately 70%, twice topping the 2/3 mark, 10 times topping 50%, so he's been consistently up there, but there has been very little discussion about him. With just 1 year left on the ballot after this, I do feel that a good discussion about Richardson could make a difference.

  23. #23
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    --He is a borderline case for me, only making my ballot during the outfield/infield imbalance debates of a few years ago. I'm supporitng him still, but not enough to be his champion. Apparently you are either as you're calling for someone else to make the case. Anybody feel strongly enough about old "True Blue" to make him our special interest case these last 2 elections?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --He is a borderline case for me, only making my ballot during the outfield/infield imbalance debates of a few years ago. I'm supporitng him still, but not enough to be his champion. Apparently you are either as you're calling for someone else to make the case. Anybody feel strongly enough about old "True Blue" to make him our special interest case these last 2 elections?
    You're right, I don't feel the fervor to be his champion. I think I make it pretty clear when I feel strongly about a player. I think a lot of us probably feel similarly about Richardson, kind "sure, why not." He's had such consistently strong support though that I feel like it's ashame that no one is trumpeting his cause because it could make the difference. I don't want to see him not elected simply because no one really made a case. He's gotten pretty far on silence.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --He is a borderline case for me, only making my ballot during the outfield/infield imbalance debates of a few years ago. I'm supporitng him still, but not enough to be his champion. Apparently you are either as you're calling for someone else to make the case. Anybody feel strongly enough about old "True Blue" to make him our special interest case these last 2 elections?
    He's better than Childs. I don't know if that's championing him, though.

    Here's AG2004's Keltner on him:

    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...9&postcount=90

    I think he's pretty much lukewarm for a lot of people. I don't see anyone championing his case. I could see someone championing the other 14 year guy who just missed election, however *cough* Spalding *cough*.

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