View Poll Results: PLEASE READ RULES, LIMIT TO 15 VOTES, AND POST BALLOT IN THREAD

Voters
25. You may not vote on this poll
  • Ginger Beumont, CF (1899-1910) - 1st

    1 4.00%
  • Jake Beckley, 1B (1888-1907) - 4th Year

    14 56.00%
  • Cupid Childs, 2B (1888, 1890-1901) - 10th Year

    9 36.00%
  • Larry Corcoran, SP (1880-1887) - 15th Year

    2 8.00%
  • Lave Cross, 3B (1887-1907) - 4th Year

    3 12.00%
  • Bill Dinneen, SP (1898-1909) - 2nd Year

    0 0%
  • Hugh Duffy, CF/OF (1888-1901, 1904-1906) - 5th Year

    12 48.00%
  • Elmer Flick, RF (1898-1910) - 1st Year

    15 60.00%
  • Clark Griffith, SP (1891, 1893-1907, 1909, 1912-1914) - 1st Year

    8 32.00%
  • Harry Howell, SP (1898-1910) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Hughie Jennings, SS (1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912) - 2nd Year

    11 44.00%
  • Charley Jones, LF (1875-1880, 1883-1888) - 15th Year

    7 28.00%
  • Fielder Jones, CF (1896-1908) - 3rd Year

    2 8.00%
  • Addie Joss, SP (1902-1910) - 1st Year

    13 52.00%
  • Willie Keeler, RF (1892-1910) - 1st Year

    16 64.00%
  • Joe Kelley, LF (1891-1906, 1908) - 3rd Year

    9 36.00%
  • Sam Leever, SP (1898-1910) - 1st Year

    1 4.00%
  • Herman Long, SS (1889-1904) - 7th Year

    8 32.00%
  • Jim McCormick, SP (1878-1887) - 15th Year

    8 32.00%
  • John McGraw, 3B (1891-1906) - 5th Year

    9 36.00%
  • Cal McVey, C/1B (1871-1879) - 15th Year

    10 40.00%
  • Jack O'Connor, C (1887-1904, 1906-1907, 1910) - 2nd Year

    0 0%
  • Lip Pike, CF (1871-1878, 1881, 1887) - 15th Year

    12 48.00%
  • Hardy Richardson, 2B/LF (1879-1892) - 15th Year

    16 64.00%
  • Claude Ritchey, 2B (1897-1909) - 2nd Year

    0 0%
  • Jimmy Ryan, CF (1885-1903) - 8th Year

    5 20.00%
  • Al Spalding, SP (1871-1877) - 15th Year

    20 80.00%
  • Tully Sparks, SP (1897, 1899, 1901-1910) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Joe Start, 1B (1871-1886) - 15th Year

    15 60.00%
  • George Stone, LF (1903, 1905-1910) - 1st Year

    1 4.00%
  • Ezra Sutton, 3B (1871-1888) - 15th Year

    13 52.00%
  • Mike Tiernan, RF (1887-1899) - 11th Year

    2 8.00%
  • George Van Haltren, CF (1887-1903) - 8th Year

    13 52.00%
  • Rube Waddell, SP (1897, 1899-1910) - 1st Year

    21 84.00%
  • Mickey Welch, SP (1880-1892) - 15th Year

    10 40.00%
  • Jimmy Williams, 2B (1899-1909) - 2nd Year

    0 0%
  • Vic Willis, SP (1898-1910) - 1st Year

    9 36.00%
  • None of the Above (Blank Ballot)

    0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 73

Thread: BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1915

  1. #1

    BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1915

    PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

    Format and Rules
    Voting Rules: Until further notice, voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
    -Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes are essentially votes against. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

    Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

    Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

    Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
    - Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

    Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


    1915 Guide
    There are 37 candidates on the 1915 ballot - 26 holdovers and 11 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1910 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

    First Timers (10)
    Ginger Beaumont
    Elmer Flick
    Clark Griffith – Age Rule
    Harry Howell
    Addie Joss – 1500 IP Rule
    Willie Keeler
    Sam Leever
    Tully Sparks
    George Stone - 3000 AB Rule
    Rube Waddell
    Vic Willis

    Holdovers (26)
    Code:
    Player			Year of Eligibility	Previous Support	High Support
    Jake Beckley		4th			73.08%			73.91% (1913)
    Cupid Childs		10th			50.00%			56.52% (1913)
    Larry Corcoran		15th			15.38%			18.18% (1909)	
    Lave Cross		4th			19.23%			30.43% (1912)
    Bill Dinneen		2nd			3.85%			3.85% (1914)
    Hugh Duffy		5th			53.85%			65.22% (1912)
    Hughie Jennings		2nd			50.00%			50.00% (1913)
    Charley Jones		15th			30.77%			34.78% (1913)	
    Fielder Jones		3rd			11.54%			11.54% (1914)
    Joe Kelley		3rd			50.00%			50.00% (1914)
    Herman Long		7th			42.31%			56.52% (1913)
    Jim McCormick		15th			23.08%			40.00% (1910)
    John McGraw		5th			42.31%			47.83% (1912)
    Cal McVey		15th			34.62%			56.52% (1909) 
    Jack O’Connor		2nd			3.85%			3.85% (1914)
    Lip Pike		15th			46.15%			56.52% (1909)
    Hardy Richardson	15th			69.23%			69.57% (1913)
    Claude Ritchey		2nd			3.85%			3.85% (1914)
    Jimmy Ryan		8th			34.62%			48.00% (1908)
    Al Spalding		15th			73.08%			73.91% (1912)
    Joe Start		15th			53.85%			65.22% (1912)
    Ezra Sutton		15th			46.15%			62.50% (1905)
    Mike Tiernan		11th			26.92%			26.92% (1914)
    George Van Haltren	8th			69.23%			69.57% (1912)
    Mickey Welch		15th			53.85%			53.85% (1914)
    Jimmy Williams		2nd			7.69%			7.69% (1914)
    Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (10)
    Code:
    Player			1912 Support	Years with At Least 50% Support
    Jake Beckley		73.08%		3
    Al Spalding		73.08%		10
    Hardy Richardson	69.23%		11
    George Van Haltren	69.23%		7
    Hugh Duffy		53.85%		4
    Joe Start		53.85%		10
    Mickey Welch		53.85%		2
    Cupid Childs		50.00%		5
    Hughie Jennings		50.00%		1
    Joe Kelley		50.00%		1
    Hall of “Almost” - Players Receiving At Least 2/3 Support in an Election But Never Elected (4)
    Code:
    Player			High Support	“Almost Years”	Last Year on Ballot
    Jake Beckley		73.91% (1913)	2
    Al Spalding		73.91% (1912)	4
    Hardy Richardson	69.57% (1912)	3
    George Van Haltren	69.57% (1912)	3
    Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (4)
    Code:
    Player			Reason			Years on Ballot		High Support
    Kid Gleason		Lack of Support		2			4.35% (1913)
    Bobby Lowe		Lack of Support		3			9.09% (1913)
    Deacon McGuire		Lack of Support		2			4.35% (1913)
    John Warner		Lack of Support		2			4.35% (1913)
    Last Year of Eligibility (10)
    Code:
    Player	High Support
    Larry Corcoran		18.18% (1909)	
    Charley Jones		32.00% (1910, 1911)
    Jim McCormick		40.00% (1910)
    Cal McVey		56.52% (1909)
    Lip Pike		56.52% (1909)
    Hardy Richardson	69.57% (1913)
    Al Spalding		73.91% (1912)
    Joe Start		65.22% (1912)
    Ezra Sutton		62.50% (1905)
    Mickey Welch		52.00% (1910)
    Penultimate Year of Eligibility (0)


    Hall of Famers

    Players Elected (32)
    Code:
    Player			Year Elected	Election Percentage	Years on Ballot		Position		Primary Team			Active Years			Total Seasons
    Cap Anson		1902		100%			1			First Base		Chicago White Stockings (NL)	1871-1897			27		
    Ross Barnes		1911		76.00%			11			Second Base		Boston Red Stockings (NA)	1871-1879, 1881			9
    Charlie Bennett		1907		75.00%			7			Catcher			Detroit Wolverines (NL)		1878, 1880-1893			15
    Pete Browning		1909		77.27%			9			Center Field/Left Field	Louisville Colonels (NL/AA)	1882-1894			13
    Dan Brouthers		1901		90.00%			1			First Base		Buffalo Bisons (NL)		1879-1896, 1904			18
    Jesse Burkett		1910		92.00%			1			Left field		Cleveland Spiders (NL)		1890-1905			16
    Bob Caruthers		1909		77.27%			9			Pitcher/Right Field	St. Louis Browns (NL/AA)	1884-1893			10
    John Clarkson		1901		90.00%			1			Pitcher			Boston Beaneaters (NL)		1882, 1884-1894			12
    Jimmy Collins		1913		82.61%			1			Third Base		Boston Americans (AL)		1895-1908			14
    Roger Conner		1902		79.17%			1			First Base		New York Giants (NL)		1880-1897			18
    George Davis		1914		84.62%			1			Shortstop		New York Giants (NL)		1890-1909			20
    Ed Delahanty		1908		96.00%			1			Left Field		Philadelphia Phillies (NL)	1888-1903			16
    Buck Ewing		1902		83.33%			1			Catcher			New York Giants (NL)		1880-1897			18
    Pud Galvin		1903		80.77%			3			Pitcher			Buffalo Bisons (NL)		1875, 1879-1892			15	
    Jack Glasscock		1911		84.00%			11			Shortstop		Cleveland Blues (NL)		1879-1895			17
    George Gore		1909		77.27%			9			Center Field		Chicago White Stockings (NL)	1879-1892			14
    Billy Hamilton		1906		82.61%			1			Center Field		Philadelphia Phillies (NL)	1888-1901			14
    Paul Hines		1904		76.00%			4			Center Field		Providence Grays (NL)		1872-1891			20
    Tim Keefe		1901		75.00%			1			Pitcher			New York Giants (NL)		1880-1893			14
    King Kelly		1902		75.00%			2			Right Field/Catcher	Chicago White Stockings (NL)	1878-1893			16
    Joe McGinnity		1913		91.30%			1			Pitcher			New York Giants (NL)		1899-1908			10
    Bid McPhee		1905		75.00%			2			Second Base		Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA)		1882-1899			18
    Tony Mullane		1908		80.00%			8			Pitcher			Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA)		1881-1894			14
    Kid Nichols		1911		100%			1			Pitcher			Boston Beaneaters (NL)		1890-1901, 1904-1906		15
    Jim O’Rourke		1901		90.00%			1			Left Field/Utility	New York Giants (NL)		1872-1893, 1904			23
    Charley Radbourn	1901		95.00%			1			Pitcher			Providence Grays (NL)		1881-1891			11
    Amos Rusie		1906		78.26%			1			Pitcher			New York Giants (NL)		1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901	10
    Harry Stovey		1907		75.00%			7			Left Field/First Base	Philadelphia Athletics (AA)	1880-1893			14
    Sam Thompson		1907		79.17%			5			Right Field		Philadelphia Phillies (NL)	1885-1898, 1906			15
    John Ward		1907		75.00%			7			Shortstop/Pitcher	New York Giants (NL)		1878-1894			17
    Deacon White		1904		76.00%			4			Catcher/Third Base	Buffalo Bisons (NL)		1871-1890			20
    George Wright		1907		75.00%			7			Shortstop		Boston Red Stockings (NA)	1871-1882			12
    Players Elected by Primary Position
    Catcher (3): Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing, Deacon White
    First Base (3): Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner
    Second Base (2): Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee
    Third Base (1): Jimmy Collins
    Shortstop (4): George Davis, Jack Glasscock, John Ward, George Wright
    Left Field (4): Jesse Burkett, Ed Delahanty, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey
    Center Field (4): Pete Browning, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines
    Right Field (2): King Kelly, Sam Thompson
    Pitcher (9): Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Tim Keefe, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie

    Players Elected by Year
    1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
    1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
    1903 (1): Pud Galvin
    1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
    1905 (1): Bid McPhee
    1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
    1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
    1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
    1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
    1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
    1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
    1912 (0):
    1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
    1914 (1): George Davis

    First Balloters (16)
    Code:
    Player			Year Elected
    Cap Anson		1902
    Dan Brouthers		1901
    Jesse Burkett		1910
    John Clarkson		1901
    Jimmy Collins		1913
    Roger Conner		1902
    George Davis		1914
    Ed Delahanty		1908
    Buck Ewing		1902
    Billy Hamilton		1906
    Tim Keefe		1901
    Jim O’Rourke		1901
    Joe McGinnity		1913
    Kid Nichols		1911
    Charley Radbourn	1901
    Amos Rusie		1906

    Miscellaneous Information
    - Highest Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Kid Nichols – 100%
    - Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 16
    - Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 8
    - Most Years on Ballot Before Election: 11 – Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock
    - Most Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
    - Fewest Electees in One Year: 0 (1912)
    - Average Electees Per Year: 2.29
    - Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
    - Smallest Ballot: 27 Players (1908)
    - Most Votes Cast: 26 (1903, 1914)
    - Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
    - Average Votes Cast: 23.21
    - Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 8
    - Team With Second Most Players Elected: Buffalo Bisons, Philadelphia Phillies, Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings) - 3
    - Electee with Longest Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
    - Electee with Shortest Career: Ross Barnes – 9 Seasons
    - Average Career Length of Electees: 15.44 Seasons
    - Highest Election Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Jake Beckley, Al Spalding – 73.91%

    Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
    1901: 20
    1902: 24
    1903: 26
    1904: 25
    1905: 24
    1906: 23
    1907: 24
    1908: 25
    1909: 22
    1910: 25
    1911: 25
    1912: 23
    1913: 23
    1914: 26

    Links to Past Elections (10)
    1901
    1902
    1903
    1904
    1905
    1906
    1907
    1908
    1909
    1910
    1911
    1912
    1913
    1914
    Last edited by DoubleX; 08-26-2008 at 06:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Sorry for any confusion with this thread. I had to restart it because I left George Stone out originally.

    I've gone full 15 this time given the newcomers:

    Jake Beckley
    Elmer Flick
    Addie Joss - Short career, just 9 years, but all peak and quite an impressive peak at that. It's tough to hold death against a person. Would he really be that much better of a candidate if he was able to play a few more mediocre years?
    Willie Keeler - Something tells me that he'll be treated similarly as Beckley. Keeler was though, without question, a bona fide star of his time, and that should be kept in mind.
    Jim McCormick
    Cal McVey
    Hardy Richardson
    Jimmy Ryan
    Al Spalding
    Joe Start
    Ezra Sutton
    George Van Haltren
    Rube Waddell
    Mickey Welch
    Vic Willis

    As I mentioned in the 1914 election, I've added Spalding to my ballot. I don't support his candidacy per se, but I don't object either, so with him being in his last year, in deference to his supporters which brought him close, I will remove the obstacle of my non-vote, which is essentially a vote against. That vote would otherwise have gone to Joe Kelley. I also dropped Mike Tiernan and Jimmy Williams from my ballot. I gave Williams a charity vote last time. I gave Clark Griffith a lot of consideration as well.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Halifax, NS
    Posts
    10,146
    Blog Entries
    4
    Addie Joss

    If I'm going to open up my voting standards, it'll have to wait until next year.

  4. #4

    My Ballot

    The guys in italics are all in their last year of eligibility. I'm hoping at least 1 of them makes it this time and that everyone's giving extra consideration to the 15th year guys:

    Jake Beckley
    Larry Corcoran
    Elmer Flick
    Charley Jones
    Addie Joss
    Sam Leever
    Jim McCormick
    Cal McVey
    Lip Pike
    Hardy Richardson
    Al Spalding
    Joe Start
    George Stone
    Ezra Sutton
    Rube Waddell

    In my queue and likely to be added in 1916:

    Clark Griffith
    Willie Keeler
    Joe Kelley

    In my consideration set/will not block on 15th try:

    Cupid Childs
    Vic Willis

    No longer on my ballot:

    Cupid Childs
    Lave Cross
    Bill Dinneen
    Herman Long

    1st time eligibles on my 1916 consideration list:

    Bill Dahlen
    Deacon Phillippe
    Jesse Tannehill
    Cy Young

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Bedard View Post
    Addie Joss

    If I'm going to open up my voting standards, it'll have to wait until next year.
    Addie Joss, but not Rube Waddell or Elmer Flick? No consideration for any of the 15th year guys?
    Last edited by jjpm74; 08-20-2008 at 10:55 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Bedard View Post
    Addie Joss

    If I'm going to open up my voting standards, it'll have to wait until next year.
    But not Waddell? This is probably the best collection of players we've had since the first year or two. I find it hard to believe that a voter can find no more than 1 worthy player.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Chicago - The town that the World Series forgot
    Posts
    3,875
    I'd ask folks to really take a look at some of the old stars who are on their last ballot.

    Spalding has consistently been just short of election. He was the best pitcher of his day, a pretty good hitter too, and then there's his off field contributions if you'd like to include those.

    Welch is a guy I know a lot of folks have a distaste for thanks to some former voters. However, at the current date of 1915, his wins and IP are still impressive totals. For IP, only Cy Young, Kid Nichols, Tim Keefe, and Pud Galvin are better. For wins he's still 8th overall with Young, Mathewson, Galvin, Nichols, Keefe, Clarkson, and Radbourn ahead of him. Eddie Plank passes him in 1916, but no one else is on the radar to challenge his mark. His ERA+ for his peak isn't unreasonably low. And while he pitched on some good teams, its not like he played for a periennial juggernaught. If you supported Mullane, Caruthers, or McGinnty, I'd ask you to take a last look at Welch before voting.

    Joe Start was perhaps the first star of the game. His pro career dates back to the game's origins almost and he had impressive longevity as well - which was really unheard of in his day.

    McVey was another 1860's star who played well in the 1870's. He left the game still very much a productive star. He played all over the diamond, at first, third, outfield, catcher, and even pitched some (poorly though). Wikipedia (I know not the best source) implies that the reserve clause rule may have prompted his decision to move out west. In San Francsico he played for Pacific Coast league for a number of years, also managing there (as he had in the majors at the end of career as well). Wikipedia also says he helped organize teams out west too. I'm not sure if he was involved in the Pacific Coast League or not, but it sounds like he was an important figure in establishing baseball out west. Does anyone else have any other information on his involvement in west coast baseball?

    Lip Pike's career started in 1866. An interesting story was that Pike and 2 other players for the Athletics were charged with being paid under the table by the National Association of Baseball Players. A hearing was scheduled, but no one showed up (as paying players under the table was an open secret) and it helped pave the way for the first openly professional team.

    As a player, Pike played OF mostly, but also did some time in the infield. His hitting numbers speak for themselves. The odd thing about Pike is, after having a pretty solid season in 1878 (137 OPS, though he did finish poorly his last 5 games after being traded), no NL team signed him for 3 years. He came back at 36, but played poorly in a brief appearance (5 games) and was actually banned for playing so poorly. Pike was also a player/manager 3 different years if that sort of thing interests you, though his managerial record wasn't very stellar.
    "I will calmly wait for my induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame."
    - Sammy Sosa

    "Get a comfy chair, Sammy, cause its gonna be a long wait."
    - Craig Ashley (AKA Windy City Fan)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    10,128
    Beckley
    Childs
    Duffy
    Flick
    Griffith
    Joss
    Keeler
    J. Kelley
    McGraw
    Richardson
    Ryan
    Spalding
    Tiernan
    Van Haltren
    Waddell
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    D-town, MI
    Posts
    5,947
    Blog Entries
    9

    1915 Ballot

    G. Davis, Duffy and C. Jones are replaced by Flick, Keeler and Waddell.

    Beckley
    Childs
    Flick
    Jennings
    Keeler
    J. Kelley
    McVey
    Pike
    Richardson
    Ryan
    Spalding
    Start
    Sutton
    Van Haltren
    Waddell
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Halifax, NS
    Posts
    10,146
    Blog Entries
    4
    Missed Waddell. He belongs for sure. I'd request a vote to be added, but I doubt it'll matter. I was kinda in a rush to get to my doctor's appointment (foot surgery) and didn't give it the due diligence. Plus I forgot to vote last time, and I wanted to get my ballot in ASAP. Flick is very, very close as well, but I didn't vote for him. I think I'll loosen my requirements next year, and if Keeler, Flick, or Willis don't get in, they'll all make my ballot next year. I set 1915 as the date after which I will re-examine my procedures, and I'm sticking to that.

  11. #11
    Jake Beckley
    Larry Corcoran
    Hugh Duffy
    Elmer Flick
    Charley Jones
    Addie Joss
    Willie Keeler
    Jim McCormick
    Cal McVey
    Hardy Richardson
    Al Spalding
    George Van Haltren
    Rube Waddell
    Mickey Welch
    Vic Willis


    1. Al Spalding
    2. Willie Keeler
    3. Hugh Duffy
    4. Jim McCormick
    5. Mickey Welch
    6. Rube Waddell
    7. Elmer Flick
    8. Cal McVey
    9. Vic Willis
    10. George Van Haltren
    11. Jake Beckley
    12. Addie Joss
    13. Hardy Richardson
    14. Charley Jones
    15. Larry Corcoran
    Last edited by dgarza; 08-20-2008 at 02:01 PM.

  12. #12

    Hardy Richardson

    In 1876 and 1877 Hardy Richardson played for the Binghamton NY Crickets, one strong independent club in 1876 (when there were no organizations but the National League and some state associations) and one member of the (National) League Alliance in 1877. The Alliance clubs were affiliated with the National League but did not compete for any pennant. Frank Vaccaro has designated one common lineup for each team, with Richardson batting third and fielding center for Binghamton.

    In 1878, Hardy Richardson was a star in the International Association, the National League's rival. Apparently a full schedule would have been 48 games/decisions for each team but three of thirteen did not complete the season. Richardson played 40 games for Utica, "of-2b-c" according to the SABR compiler, and the New York Clipper named him the best fielding centerfielder (in IA?). He ranked second in batting average among 20-game players, fourth among all 10-game players. He finished in ties for second in hits, first in doubles, first in extra bases, and fifth in runs.

    No one has compiled data on the IA home ballparks. Three teams yielded less than 3.00 runs per game (home and away), presumably led by their pitchers Fred Goldsmith, Jim Galvin, and Jim McCormick. Hardy Richardson and batting leader John O'Rourke both played for good teams but neither benefited from playing on one of the stingy teams. The IA median team batting average was .219 (NL .259), IA median team runs scored 4.25 per game (NL 5.17)! Richardson batted .324 and scored 30 runs.

    Hardy Richardson would be one MVP candidate as many people understand that today, where pitchers have their own award.

    --
    There are some more notes on Richardson in the "Group 3" discussion thread at the Hall of Merit, especially #58-64, #72-73, #157-59
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 08-20-2008 at 03:05 PM. Reason: add HOM references

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Berkeley, CA
    Posts
    1,671
    Davis being elected knocked my ballot down to 11 names which is great because I expected to support four of the newcomers. Unfortunately, I actually support five of the newcomers, skipping over Keeler when I last saw the list. Push comes to shove, I'll give Keeler the vote in the next go-around in order to ensure that the "old-timers" close to election can sneak in.

    1. Beckley
    2. Childs
    3. Duffy
    4. Flick
    5. Jennings
    6. Joss
    7. McCormick
    8. Pike
    9. Richardson
    10. Spalding
    11. Start
    12. Sutton
    13. Van Haltren
    14. Waddell
    15. Willis

    Ranked By # of Ballot Appearances:

    Fifteen (1901 onward) - Joe Start
    Fourteen (1902 onward) - Hardy Richardson
    Ten (1906 onward) - Cupid Childs
    Ten (1905 and 1907-1914) - Jim McCormick, Ezra Sutton
    Nine (1901, 1908-1915) - Al Spalding
    Eight (1908 onward) - Lip Pike, George Van Haltren
    Five (1911 onward) - Hugh Duffy
    Four (1912 onward) - Jake Beckley
    Two (1914 onward) - Hughie Jennings
    One (1915 onward) - Flick, Waddell, Willis

    In my queue: Keeler
    1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

    1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
    1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
    1966 1974 1977 1978


    1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
    2013


    1996 2006

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,557
    Blog Entries
    34
    Childs
    Duffy
    Flick
    Keeler
    Kelley
    Long
    Richardson
    Spalding
    Start
    Sutton
    Van Haltren
    Waddell
    Willis

    I think Griffith belongs, but more as a VC choice.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    mariners country
    Posts
    23,572
    --I don't see Joss as anywhere near the best playe or even pitcher on the ballot. The problem is not just his short career, but a lack of in season durability. His quality was high, but not exceptionally so when you compare him only the the primes of other pitching candidates (his high career ERA+ is greatly aided by his lack of decline years - although I'm sure he would have preferred to have had those years regardless of how much it hurt his record). The othe thing is that, even if he had lived, his career was probably not destined to be a long one. He suffered a serious arm injury the year before his death that already threatened his career.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --I don't see Joss as anywhere near the best playe or even pitcher on the ballot. The problem is not just his short career, but a lack of in season durability. His quality was high, but not exceptionally so when you compare him only the the primes of other pitching candidates (his high career ERA+ is greatly aided by his lack of decline years - although I'm sure he would have preferred to have had those years regardless of how much it hurt his record). The othe thing is that, even if he had lived, his career was probably not destined to be a long one. He suffered a serious arm injury the year before his death that already threatened his career.
    His high career ERA+ is inflated by a short career, but it's hard to deny that a 9 year peak ERA+ of 142 is not Hall of Fame worthy, IMO. Tack on maybe 5 more so-so years and he's still likely at around at least 130 for his career.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Pullman, WA
    Posts
    3,109

    My ballot

    Jake Beckley
    Cupid Childs
    Hugh Duffy
    Elmer Flick
    Hughie Jennings
    Willie Keeler
    Joe Kelley
    Herman Long
    Cal McVey
    Hardy Richardson
    Al Spalding
    Joe Start
    Ezra Sutton
    Rube Waddell
    Mickey Welch
    Hey, this is my public apology for suddenly disappearing and missing out on any projects I may have neglected.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Pullman, WA
    Posts
    3,109
    A rare year where there's not enough room on my ballot. Even though most of them were on the back end of my queue, I bumped all the guys on their last year of eligibility (who I had voted for in the past) to the top. That knocked a couple guys who I had higher off.

    Beckley was probably the lowest of the guys with eligibility left past this year, but he's been so close I voted for him anyway. I don't want the one year I don't vote for him to be the one year where my vote makes a difference.

    I find it interesting that Waddell was near the back of my queue (after last-timers being bumped up) but he's currently the only person who would get in if voting stopped today. I'm amazed Elmer Flick isn't getting more support.

    If someone can convince me not to vote for Flick in the future, I invite you to do so. He's at the top of my queue and I want to know what I'm missing that's so damning. I mean, I've been aware in the past that I like him more than others, but still.

    I didn't vote for Joss yet. I probably will, but I want to take at least a ballot to think about it and see the arguments.

    I'm ver close on Beaumont and Griffith and could be persuaded to vote for them in the future. I would very much like to see anyone else's arguments for them.
    Hey, this is my public apology for suddenly disappearing and missing out on any projects I may have neglected.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,823
    Blog Entries
    4
    Beckley
    Childs
    Cross
    Keeler
    Long
    McGraw
    Pike
    Richardson
    Ryan
    Spalding
    Start
    Tiernan
    Van Haltren
    Waddell
    Welch

    I didn't see it with the other 15th year players. I thought about casting a vote for Ritchey rather than Keeler just to keep him on the ballot, but a solid second baseman with good fielding numbers on a "mini-dynasty" was not worht what it would be in another fifty years. At any rate his offense was average at best even if every now and then he was the best 2B in the NL it is nowhere near Hall worthy, even just to keep him in the conversation.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Westchester County, NY
    Posts
    3,049
    Beckley, Joss, Keeler, Spalding, Welch


    I was close on Elmer Flick, Rube Waddell, and Vic Willis. It doesn't look like Waddell is ging to need my support, but may consider voting for any of these three in the next election.

    I'm surprised that Joss is getting such little support so far. I'm assuming Koufax will fly through this process. What makes Koufax superier to Joss? Other than the 3 Cy youngs (which weren't around in Joss's day)?

    I've been voting Spalding and Welch for 15 years. I'm hopeful for Spalding, but can see that Welch really doesn't have a chance. I know he is viewed as an accumulator, but his totals are still holding up, 15 years later. At least I can stop checking both their names next year, one way or another...

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,557
    Blog Entries
    34
    Addie Joss
    Quote Originally Posted by torez77
    However, saying that Joss has no business in the HOF is ridiculous. His 1.89 ERA is 2nd all-time, adjusted ERA+ of 142 is 10th all-time. His 8.7 baserunners per 9 innings happens to be 1st all-time. He had a short career, but it was an excellent one, HOF worthy without question.

    ......
    I feel that Joss, Waddell, and other pitchers from that era such as Ed Walsh, Mordecai Brown and Smokey Joe Wood don't get the credit they deserve. They shouldn't be mentioned quite in the same breath as the Big 4 from that era (Johnson, Alexander, Mathewson, Young), but they are just below them IMO. I may be stretching it with Smokey Joe, but at his peak he was awesome and Walter once said no man alive can throw harder than Smokey Joe.
    Well, I'm glad we don't have to debate that at least Walter Johnson, Mathewson and Cy Young are all superior to Joss. Joss finishes 11th among pitchers in the decade 1900-09 behind those three, McGinnity, Waddell, Vic Willis, Plank, Three Finger Brown, Chesbro, Doc White and Jack Powell. I can see putting Joss ahead of White and Powell on peak performance. I look at six categories for guys in this era: Black Ink, Gray ink, HOF standards, career win shares, win share total in his best three seasons, and best win share total in five consecutive seasons. We'll go through the comparison to Chesbro in detail below in a moment. Of the HOFers (thus leaving out White and Powell), Joss can only edge Plank in gray ink, tie Waddell in HOF standards, and get Willis in HOF standards and best five consecutive, at least in that decade. He gets swamped on career wins shares by every one of them and often is significantly behind these guys in at least most of these categories. Even if we cut it down to 8 seasons in the decade like Joss (who only managed 7 more win shares from 1910 on), these guys are still beating him.

    The real coup de grace for Joss's case in my mind, though, is the comparison to Jack Chesbro:

    Code:
    …………………......	Chesbro	Joss
    Black Ink…………	27	19
    Gray Ink…………	130	143
    HOF standards…	40	47
    career WS……….	209	191
    WS 1900-09………	203	184
    best 8 WS………..	195	184
    best 3 WS………	103	88
    best 5 consecWS	143	131
    I threw in the decade and best 8 seasons figures to try and give Joss a break, but it did no good. There's 130 years of baseball, and we've got 70 major league pitchers or so in the Hall. That works out to about six a decade on average if we leave out the last decade. If you want to push it to 7 or 8 by taking fewer 19th century guys and eliminating duplicates, OK--but we already have 8 from the decade before getting to Joss versus Chesbro. The selection of Chesbro has drawn a lot of flak, but if we're only going to take Chesbro or Joss, I take Chesbro hands down.

    I might add that only three of the ten most similar pitchers to Joss are in the HOF, and two of them are Candy Cummings (for his supposed invention of the curve) and Monte Ward (who had about two other HOF caliber careers in baseball, one as a shortstop and another as a executive type).

    I'll add this analysis by AG2004:
    1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

    No.

    2. Was he the best player on his team?

    He led Cleveland’s pitchers in win shares in 1903, 1905, 1907, and 1908.

    3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

    He never led AL pitchers in win shares, although he finished second in 1908. He was third among major league pitchers in win shares that season, but that was his only year among the top six in win shares among MLB pitchers.

    4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

    He had 35 win shares in 1908, when Cleveland lost the pennant by half a game, and pitched a perfect game in the heat of the pennant race. Otherwise, Cleveland wasn’t close to winning the pennant during Joss’ career.

    5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

    For Joss, this question is not relevant. He died of meningitis at the age of 31, so we don’t know what his decline would have been like had he lived.

    6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

    No.

    7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

    By similarity scores: John Ward, Larry Corcoran, Deacon Phillippe, Jeff Pfeffer, Noodles Hahn, Hooks Wiltse, Dizzy Dean, Jack Coombs, Candy Cummings, and Fred Toney. Three of the ten are in Cooperstown, but Ward also had a career as a shortstop, and Cummings is in as inventor of the curveball. However, Joss’ lifetime ERA+ of 141 is the best of the bunch; nobody else has one higher than 131. Similarity scores don’t help us here.

    Career win shares, contemporary P: Sam Leever 212, Jack Chesbro 209, Deacon Philippe 206, Wild Bill Donovan 202, Bill Dineen 200, JOSS 191, Jack Taylor 183. Chesbro is the only one in Cooperstown, and he’s considered one of the Hall’s mistakes. Otherwise, these aren’t Hall of Famers.

    Best three seasons, contemporary P: Vic Willis 101, Clark Griffith 94, Eddie Plank 89, Jack Powell 89, JOSS 88, Jack Taylor 85, Bill Dineen 81, Babe Adams 81, George Mullin 80. This isn’t BBFHOF territory, either.

    Best five consecutive seasons: Vic Willis 138, Bill Dineen 134, Eddie Plank 133, JOSS 131, Jack Taylor 124. This isn’t the best company for Joss, as he’s just below the cutoff line.

    8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

    His Black Ink score of 19 is only 99th, and his Gray Ink score of 143 is just 102nd. Those are not good marks. However, he does place a decent 42nd in HOF Standards, at 47.0.

    9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

    Joss pitched in the deadball era, which makes his raw numbers look better. Also, he had no decline phase to lower his career numbers.

    10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

    No. There are many other pitchers better than Joss who aren’t in the BBFHOF. There are pitchers better than Joss who haven’t even received votes in the BBFHOF elections.

    11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

    There was no MVP award during Joss’ career. He finished second in win shares among AL pitchers in 1908, however.

    12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

    There was no All-Star game in Joss’ era. Baseball Magazine started naming its all-league and all-American teams in 1908. Joss was one of the five pitchers on its all-AL team that season, but failed to make the all-American team that year.

    Joss had only two seasons in which he was among the top five AL pitchers in win shares. He was sixth one other year, and seventh two other times. But three or four All-Star-type seasons is very low for a pitcher.

    13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

    I don’t know. Joss had only two seasons when he was among the top five pitchers in the AL in win shares. However, those were the only seasons when he was among the top ten in the AL in IP and games started. I don’t know why he wasn’t used as often as other leading pitchers in the league.

    14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

    He pitched a perfect game in 1908. He’s also known as the player Cooperstown waived its ten-year requirement for.

    Joss has the best WHIP of any major league pitcher in history, and the second best ERA of any pitcher. He’s twelfth in adjusted ERA+ among major league pitchers.

    15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

    As far as I can tell.

    CONCLUSION: A player with a career as short as Joss’ needs a huge peak in order to deserve induction into the BBFHOF. Joss had very good rate stats, but suffers in the win shares measures because he usually didn’t pitch as many times per season as his contemporaries. As he doesn’t come close to having the best peak among pitchers of the twentieth century’s first decade - he didn't make Baseball Magazine's list of top five pitchers in 1908, his best season - Joss does not deserve induction into the BBFHOF.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    mariners country
    Posts
    23,572
    --Joss just didn't pitch enough (and I'm talking about per season not his short career) to match up well with the other great pitchers of his time. He was a guy like Jose Rijo from more recent times who was terrific when he was on the mound, but just couldn't be counted on often enough to join the elite category. If you were the best or very close to it a fair number of times (as Koufax was) and you don't have the career numbers to make up for that then there isn't much to build acase on. ERA+ is a good indicator of quality, but if it is the singular qualifier for someone - as it is for Joss - then that doesn't cut it for me.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    mariners country
    Posts
    23,572

    Vote Spaulding!

    --Al Spaulding is exactly at 75% in his last year on the ballot. This IS a pitcher with a huge peak. In only 5 seasons as a regular pitcher Splauding was so dominant he compiled so much Black Ink that he is still 13th all time - 130 years later. He won 252 games in those 5 seasons (no wonder his arm gave out!) putting up an ERA+ over 140. He was also a good hitter, putting up a 116 OPS+. Apparently a good fielder too. His fielding percentage was .58 over league and his range factor was 25% better than the league. Obviously a short career, but packing 253 wins into it still gives him some worthy counting stats (and he won all those games in very short schedule seasons).

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --Joss just didn't pitch enough (and I'm talking about per season not his short career) to match up well with the other great pitchers of his time. He was a guy like Jose Rijo from more recent times who was terrific when he was on the mound, but just couldn't be counted on often enough to join the elite category. If you were the best or very close to it a fair number of times (as Koufax was) and you don't have the career numbers to make up for that then there isn't much to build acase on. ERA+ is a good indicator of quality, but if it is the singular qualifier for someone - as it is for Joss - then that doesn't cut it for me.
    Come on, he was better than Rijo. Significantly better ERA+, and was healthier year in and year out than Rijo, and thus pitched a much more respectable amount of innings in his era than Rijo did in his. My support for Joss isn't that strong, so I'll leave it at that.

    It will be interesting to see how Spalding plays out.

    As a final observation, just glossing over players we've elected, it looks like the bulk of our electees played during the 1880s, which makes me wonder if we're having trouble adjusting our standards to how the game and statistics subsequently changed.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Berkeley, CA
    Posts
    1,671
    At this point, Spalding is the only man worth discussing. Waddell's in, the rest have no prayer.

    For Spalding, take into account that he was one of the most dominant players of his era, and later, one of the most important figures in the game's eventual growth. Nobody would leave him out of their Hall as a contributor, so I urge everyone to vote for him now. He's going to get in anyway in our VC, so why not elect the whole portrait of the man which includes his playing time? Really, he's the only guy that's been consistently close to election that I'm certain will be a shoe-in during his first VC year. Voting against Spalding now is just delaying the process, he's in no matter what, so why block him?
    1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

    1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
    1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
    1966 1974 1977 1978


    1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
    2013


    1996 2006

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •