Hello first and secondly has anyone been more valuable than Manny R

[Chadwick]

There are two sides to every story.

Think of this: Say you are working for a company, have been for a few years and expect to work there for a while. The company changes ownership, and right away the new owners makes it clear that they are not happy with you, and want to be rid of you. The nature of your contract makes that difficult, but the owners try over and over and over again to get rid of you. They make it clear that you are not welcome, and are desperate to see the door shut behind you.

Any one of us would be unhappy, I think. Even the most patient, understanding and mature among us would rankle, and each one of us has a breaking point. No one's patience is infinite, certainly not that of an overindulged, immature individual.

I am not saying that Manny was not a brat, and I'll never assert that he went out of his way to endear himself to the ownership. But the ownership had made no secret of the fact that for years they had wanted him gone. Release, trade, whatever. If he had not been signed to that gargantuan contract, I think he would have been traded or released prior to the '02 season, as soon as the club changed hands.

If he were more mature, he could have pulled himself together and risen above the situation, and played with all his effort and all of his heart. But he's not known for his maturity. More's the pity.

Good points all, Miss Annie.

While Manny certainly didn't help himself by the way he conducted himself in response to the Henry/Luccinno ownership group, management's primary "gripe" against Manny has always been that contract. Had Manny been earning $8-12 million a season for 5-7 years instead, I doubt very seriously whether Henry and Epstein would have been trying to move him.

The "clubhouse cancer" stories are beating a dead horse that never rode very far in the first place.

[KCGHOST]

Anyone who proposes Manny for NL MVP is seriously disrespecting Albert Pujols.

[dl4060]

Why the Manny Bashing?
We see a guy that produces like Joe D and asserts his personality ,let us not forget that Joe D told the Yanks , in his prime( that would be 1938 the year post Gherig), he'd take a season off for cash.
Manny R is a special player he was a driving force in 2 BoSox titles and will take a lackluster Dodger team as far as he can

Manny is absolutely a special player, I don't see any doubt about that. Josh, have you followed the entire history of Manny with the Red Sox? I wish Boston still had him, but he really pushed a lot of buttons. Joe D did indeed say that, but he was playing under very different circumstances. Joe D was playing before free agency, the only choice players had was to hold out. Manny was getting 20 million a year.

If anything Manny's performance with the Dodgers reinforces the points some nation fans have been making about him. He had played well this year in Boston, but below his established level of production. He has exploded since he left, giving some credence to the idea that he was not giving his all in Boston. I don't know if he was tanking it or not, but the fact that his performance exploded when he left certainly points to the former.

[Chadwick]

If anything Manny's performance with the Dodgers reinforces the points some nation fans have been making about him. He had played well this year in Boston, but below his established level of production. He has exploded since he left, giving some credence to the idea that he was not giving his all in Boston. I don't know if he was tanking it or not, but the fact that his performance exploded when he left certainly points to the former.

Or that the American League has a higher quality of play and a great hitter is more likely to dominate when he moves from the American League to the National League.

[joshfan]

Anyone who proposes Manny for NL MVP is seriously disrespecting Albert Pujols.

Certainly Player of the Year is not an issue but should the Cards be viewers,while the Dodgers are playing, the value aspect needs to be addressed

[Bothrops Atrox]

Certainly Player of the Year is not an issue but should the Cards be viewers,while the Dodgers are playing, the value aspect needs to be addressed

Doesn't being the best player add a lot of "value"? In fact, I can't think of any other thing a player can do to be morwe "valuable" to his team than being the best player in the league.

So let me get a few peoples' logic straight: Albert is the best player in baseball on a team that finishes, say 12 games over .500, but misses the playoffs beacause the rest of his team is mediocre at best and he plays in the toughest division in baseball this year.

Ramirez playes only two months on a team that finishes maybe 5 games over .500, but get the MVP because he (after getting kicked out of town in a hurry) hops on team that happens to play in the worst division in baseball. His Dodgers would be 5th in the NL Central. Last but not least, the team's record barely improves at all after he joins them, and is outperformed by Pujols the last 2 months anyway.

So Manny is more valuable becasue his 5 games over team that he played on two months makes the playoffs, but Albert's 12 games over .500 team that he was with all season and produced much better for- doesn't.

I think I am seeing your points now.

[Chadwick]

This is something that (at least appears to have) crept up in fairly recent years; that is, the twisting of the word "valuable" to mean something more than "best" where the MVP Award is concerned. To me it's akin to the arguments that the Hall of Fame define "greatness" as something more along the lines of "famous."

Maybe it would be better if these sorts of accolades were more aptly named, but it seems to me the majority of people throughout their history have understood the context in which those names were derived. This appears to be quite modern - the fad of this increasingly catching on in mainstream thought - that sportswriters simply don't want to continue handing out the award to the best player because it's very often the same player who received the award previously and it's a bigger "story" for journalists to promote competition for the award.

It's not out of the question that Ramirez could, in two months, have greater value to his team than anyone else in the league did over six, but it's incredibly unlikely and would certainly be a first in the history of the game.

[Mattingly]

Since he's actually trying to help LA win, I'm sure the fans there appreciate him...he's still a fine hitter. If LA signs him to a 3-4 year deal, they'll hate his guts within a year.
I have no tolerance for a guy who acts out and doesn't try because he wants out of the $20million/year contract that he signed and that has made him a very wealthy man. The Bosox were being no hit and he couldn't be bothered to run hard on a grounder down the line that he may well have been safe on. He refused to swing the bat against Mo when pinch hitting in a close game against the Yanks. He picked fights with Youk and an old man who's worked for the team forever. At least he's never acted like that before...oh, yeah, he gave up in '06, too.
I'm going to repeat my favorite line...Manny, Theo put you on waivers, AND NOBODY WANTED YOU.
At least that put a stop to his antics for a while.

Jason Bay is a damned fine ballplayer who plays hard and can handle LF...I'm happy with the way this worked out.

I don't blame you for everything other than the part I've bolded. Every team out there would've wanted Manny's bat. His "Manny being Manny" moment is what nobody wanted. Then there's the issue of his salary. Boston offered a trade whereby the other team took over 100% of his salary. Who is going to do this for $20m/yr?

When Boston sent Manny to Los Angeles, they sent $7m along for the postage. This at the end of the contract, with only option years for '09 and '10 remaining. In the winter between the 2003-04 seasons, there were 5 full seasons remaining. Spending $100m on a ballplayer for all that time didn't seem very desirable, whereas Los Angeles got Manny practically for free, since he only plays 2 months plus a day in a 6-month season.

[joshfan]

Someone spoke of where The Dodgers would be in another division ---well they play in the one assigned....Since Ramirez showed up they went from also ran to playoff team............Gibson was hardly the best player in his MVP season

[SamtheBravesFan]

Someone spoke of where The Dodgers would be in another division ---well they play in the one assigned....Since Ramirez showed up they went from also ran to playoff team............Gibson was hardly the best player in his MVP season

Well, it was either him or Strawberry. Either one would have been deserving; they were the best players on their respective division winners.

[bob]

Since Ramirez showed up they went from also ran to playoff team.

Game before Manny joined the Dodgers: .500, 2 games back from Dbacks.
Since when is being 2 games back in july considered an also-ran?

[dl4060]

Or that the American League has a higher quality of play and a great hitter is more likely to dominate when he moves from the American League to the National League.

This is certainly possible. Or, he simply could have been due for a monster tear. He is one of the best hitters ever. The NL pitchers also do not have 15 years of experience against him the way the AL pitchers do.

Funny thing about the new ownership group and the contract: Manny's deal is actually the only one that I would say was definitely good for the team. The other monster contracts signed at the time are more questionable.

[joshfan]

They are now 7 games over 500 and making the division look easy
Manny is hitting 385 as a Dodger with big hr anfd rbi numbers
LA is going to win the division and have a legit WS opportunity,I'd say Manny has been invaluable to a sub 500 team several weeks ago

[Rennie Stennett]

Manny

When Manny came over to the Dodgers, he said his approach at the plate was just to try and hit line drives to right field. It seems to be working. Edgar Martinez used to try to go up the middle and the other way and he was amazed as often as the ball visits the gap and sometimes goes out of the park.

Even when Manny's protecting with two strikes he still puts a good swing on it while fouling them off. Great hitter.

A LA beat writer said the the Dodgers clubhouse was somewhat divided before Manny (BF) arrived and that Manny has unified the clubhouse.

[dl4060]

Another take on the Red Sox/Manny situation.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3595012