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Thread: Hall of Fame Cleanup – Who Really Belongs?

  1. #1
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    Hall of Fame Cleanup – Who Really Belongs?

    While running the Future Hall of Famers project, it occurred to me that the procedures I devised could be used to review the entire history of baseball. Well, at this time I have no plans to work through 140 years of ballplayers. However, I thought it might be good to review the years that are overloaded with hall of famers, mainly the stars from the 20’s and 30’s, to see who really belongs.

    We’ll start with players born in 1883-84. That’s the point I discerned where the pileup of players begins; there are very few HOF-caliber players born in 1881 (Ed Walsh) and 1882 (Pete Hill). There are several other reasons for starting there:

    • The oldest star player of the 1920’s, Jack Quinn, was born in 1883.
    • We’ll consider most of the stars from the glory days of the Negro leagues. The “Black Wagner”, John Henry Lloyd, was born in 1884.
    • Sherry Magee, who is probably the top HOF candidate from the first half of the 20th century, was born in 1884.
    • Chief Bender, born in 1884, will have to run the gauntlet.

    It also gives us a view of the greats from exactly one hundred years ago. Here are some of the stars from 1913 we’ll be reviewing in the early rounds of this project:
    Code:
    Rk                 Player WAR/pos OPS+ Born  Tm
    1           Eddie Collins     9.0  164 1887 PHA
    2            Tris Speaker     8.3  181 1888 BOS
    3          Home Run Baker     7.9  167 1886 PHA
    4    Shoeless Joe Jackson     7.6  192 1887 CLE
    5                 Ty Cobb     7.3  194 1886 DET
    6          Stuffy McInnis     5.3  135 1890 PHA
    7            Burt Shotton     4.9  131 1884 SLB
    8              Jack Barry     4.7  111 1887 PHA
    9            Art Fletcher     4.6  109 1885 NYG
    10       Heinie Zimmerman     4.6  147 1887 CHC
    
    Rk            Player  WAR ERA+ Born  Tm
    1     Walter Johnson 14.6  259 1887 WSH
    2        Reb Russell  8.8  154 1889 CHW
    3          Jim Scott  7.7  154 1888 CHW
    4      Eddie Cicotte  7.2  186 1884 CHW
    5     Pete Alexander  6.8  119 1887 PHI
    6         Tom Seaton  6.5  128 1887 PHI
    7    Willie Mitchell  6.3  159 1889 CLE
    8        Slim Sallee  5.9  118 1885 STL
    9        Ray Collins  5.8  112 1887 BOS
    10        Vean Gregg  5.5  135 1885 CLE
    11     Rube Marquard  5.1  126 1886 NYG
    12      Jeff Tesreau  5.0  145 1888 NYG
    We’ll continue for thirty elections or so, until we’ve considered all the stars from between the world wars. In most elections we’ll vote for 4-6 players. We’ll use the same standard we calculated previously: an average of 2.6 players per year is our end goal.

    Links to elections (Winners/Run-off candidates):

    Hall of Fame Cleanup #1 – Players Born 1883-84 (Pop Lloyd, Sherry Magee, Chief Bender / Jack Quinn, Eddie Cicotte)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #2 – Players Born 1884-85 (Pop Lloyd, Smokey Joe Williams, Sherry Magee, Jose Mendez / Chief Bender)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #3 – Players Born 1885-86 (Ty Cobb, Home Run Baker, Smokey Joe Williams, Jose Mendez, Larry Doyle / Art Fletcher)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #4 – Players Born 1886-87 (Ty Cobb, Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, Walter Johnson, Home Run Baker / Joe Jackson)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #5 – Players Born 1887-88 (Eddie Collins, Walter Johnson, Tris Speaker, Pete Alexander, Zack Wheat, Red Faber / Joe Jackson)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #6 – Players Born 1888-89 (Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Louis Santop / Heinie Groh, Joe Wood, Hippo Vaughn)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #7 – Players Born 1889-90 (Stan Coveleski, Max Carey, Sam Rice, Louis Santop, Urban Shocker / Heinie Groh)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #8 – Players Born 1890-91 (Dazzy Vance, Max Carey, Sam Rice / Eppa Rixey, Urban Shocker, Dave Bancroft)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #9 – Players Born 1891-92 (Dazzy Vance, Eppa Rixey / Dave Bancroft, Rabbit Maranville, Wilbur Cooper)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #10 – Players Born 1892-93 (George Sisler, Cristobal Torriente, Edd Roush, Burleigh Grimes / Joe Rogan, Wilbur Cooper)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #11 – Players Born 1893-94 (George Sisler, Cristobal Torriente, Harry Heilmann, Edd Roush / Joe Rogan, Burleigh Grimes)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #12 – Players Born 1894-95 (Babe Ruth, Harry Heilmann, Herb Pennock)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #13 – Players Born 1895-96 (Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby, Oscar Charleston, Jud Wilson / Dobie Moore, Alejandro Oms)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #14 – Players Born 1896-97 (Rogers Hornsby, Oscar Charleston, Jud Wilson, Biz Mackey / )
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #15 – Players Born 1897-98 (Frankie Frisch, Bill Terry, Pie Traynor / Joe Sewell, Biz Mackey, Kiki Cuyler)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #16 – Players Born 1898-99 (Frankie Frisch, Bill Terry, Joe Sewell / Kiki Cuyler, Judy Johnson)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #17 – Players Born 1899-00 (Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett, Goose Goslin, Ted Lyons / Judy Johnson)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #18 – Players Born 1900-01 (Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett, Goose Goslin, Ted Lyons, Mule Suttles, Turkey Stearnes / John Beckwith, Chino Smith, Hack Wilson)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #19 – Players Born 1901-02 (Al Simmons, Turkey Stearnes, Mule Suttles, Earl Averill / )
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #20 – Players Born 1902-03 (Lou Gehrig, Charlie Gehringer, Mickey Cochrane, Carl Hubbell, Paul Waner, Al Simmons, Cool Papa Bell / Earl Averill)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #21 – Players Born 1903-04 (Lou Gehrig, Charlie Gehringer, Mickey Cochrane, Carl Hubbell, Paul Waner, Cool Papa Bell, Bill Foster / Chuck Klein)
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #22 – Players Born 1904-05
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #23 – Players Born 1905-06
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #24 – Players Born 1906-07
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #25 – Players Born 1907-08
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #26 – Players Born 1908-09
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #27 – Players Born 1909-10
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #28 – Players Born 1910-11
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #29 – Players Born 1911-12
    Hall of Fame Cleanup #30 – Players Born 1912-13
    Hall of Fame Cleanup VC #1 – Players Born 1883-93
    Hall of Fame Cleanup VC #2 – Players Born 1894-03
    Hall of Fame Cleanup VC #3 – Players Born 1904-13
    Hall of Fame Cleanup VC #4 – Players Born 1883-98
    Hall of Fame Cleanup VC #5 – Players Born 1899-13
    Last edited by Freakshow; 03-30-2014 at 06:41 PM.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  2. #2
    Nice. I'm down.

  3. #3
    Sounds fun. I'm in.

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    I can dig it
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    I think I can swing this.

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    Are we going to vote based within eras? In other words, excluding cross-era comparisons or limiting cross-era comparisons? Or, are we going to vote based upon the concept of concentric circles of worthiness? In other words, choosing an inner circle where there is virtually no disagreement over who deserves to belong and gradually move toward the borderline players?

    Either way, I'll be game for it.
    Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

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    For once, I'll give one of these a shot.
    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” – Walter Lippmann

    "History has proven a thousand times that no man has ever gained from a bargain with The Dark, yet cowards and fools continue to try, and The Dark never turns them away."
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    BY THE BOW OF HERACLES

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    When do we start?
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by yankillaz View Post
    When do we start?
    It's currently underway.

    Poll number 1

    Poll number 2

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    deleted post
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  11. #11
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    In the “BBWAA” phase of the project, we named 60 players who deserve a place in the Hall. 17 are from the Negro leagues. In the first three VC elections we elected nine more, including five more Negro leaguers. The last two VC elections added Groh and Hack:

    1883 0 /
    1884 2 Pop Lloyd, Sherry Magee /
    1885 2 Smokey Joe Williams, Jose Mendez /
    1886 2 Ty Cobb, Home Run Baker /
    1887 4 Walter Johnson, Eddie Collins, Pete Alexander / Joe Jackson
    1888 3 Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat, Red Faber /
    1889 3 Stan Coveleski, Louis Santop / Heinie Groh
    1890 3 Max Carey, Sam Rice / Urban Shocker
    1891 1 Dazzy Vance /
    1892 0 /
    1893 4 George Sisler, Cristobal Torriente, Edd Roush / Joe Rogan
    1894 1 Harry Heilmann /
    1895 1 Babe Ruth /
    1896 4 Rogers Hornsby, Oscar Charleston, Jud Wilson / Alejandro Oms
    1897 1 / Biz Mackey
    1898 2 Frankie Frisch, Bill Terry /
    1899 0 /
    1900 4 Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett, Goose Goslin, Ted Lyons /
    1901 2 Turkey Stearnes, Mule Suttles /
    1902 2 Al Simmons / Earl Averill
    1903 6 Lou Gehrig, Charlie Gehringer, Mickey Cochrane, Carl Hubbell, Paul Waner, Cool Papa Bell /
    1904 1 Bill Foster /
    1905 3 Martin Dihigo, Red Ruffing, Willie Wells /
    1906 2 Satchel Paige, Joe Cronin /
    1907 4 Jimmie Foxx, Bill Dickey, Luke Appling, Buck Leonard /
    1908 3 Wes Ferrell, Ray Brown / Ernie Lombardi
    1909 3 Mel Ott, Billy Herman / Stan Hack
    1910 1 Dizzy Dean /
    1911 3 Josh Gibson, Hank Greenberg, Joe Medwick /
    1912 2 Arky Vaughan / Quincy Trouppe
    1913 2 Johnny Mize / Ray Dandridge

    Two of these are not yet members of the Coop: Sherry Magee and Wes Ferrell.

    So for players born 1883-1913, we still need to elect 20 more players. (80/31=2.6). We still have 37 actual hall of famers to choose from, along with several other overlooked greats.

    I’m planning six runoff elections to elect the best of the rest:

    VC phase 1
    --players born 1883-93
    --players born 1894-03
    --players born 1904-13
    VC phase 2
    --players born 1883-98
    --players born 1899-13
    VC Final
    --players born 1893-1913
    Last edited by Freakshow; 04-03-2014 at 10:57 AM.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  12. #12
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    This is a damn fine group of inductees and it occurs to me that the Hall of Fame might have saved itself a world of hurt had it stopped here and not flooded itself with VC selections from this era. (As if that wasn't already well known.)
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Harris View Post
    This is a damn fine group of inductees and it occurs to me that the Hall of Fame might have saved itself a world of hurt had it stopped here and not flooded itself with VC selections from this era. (As if that wasn't already well known.)
    Yeah, actually pretty neat the way it's turned out so far. Sixty players for the 30 years, 1884-1913, exactly two per year.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  14. #14
    Are you going to do this for every birth year. Like cover Anson's generation and then the players debuting in the 40's to today?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    Are you going to do this for every birth year. Like cover Anson's generation and then the players debuting in the 40's to today?
    Not a bad idea. (winkwinknudgenudge)
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    Are you going to do this for every birth year. Like cover Anson's generation and then the players debuting in the 40's to today?
    See the first sentence of the OP. In the first project we looked at players born 1961-86. I may decide to go through the years just prior to that, since there are a great many players born in that span overlooked by the Hall. We'll see.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    See the first sentence of the OP. In the first project we looked at players born 1961-86. I may decide to go through the years just prior to that, since there are a great many players born in that span overlooked by the Hall. We'll see.
    Oh, Dan. You're such a tease.
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

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