View Poll Results: Is Sandberg (1981-1994) a Hall of Fame 2B?

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Thread: Is Sandberg still a HOFer after his intial retirement?

  1. #1
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    Is Sandberg still a HOFer after his intial retirement?

    Simple question... If Ryne Sandberg followed through with his abrupt retirement in 1994, and never played another inning, would he still be a Hall-of-famer? His last two seasons weren't impressive, but they allowed him to accrue 4.0 more WAR, and a little bit more counting stats.
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    Yes. Those last two seasons weren't important to his case.
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  3. #3
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    Yes. He would have still been a 2-3 year guy.
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  4. #4
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    I agree fellas. I just made this point because this certain section of Sandberg's career is eerily similar to Chase Utley's entire body of work. I've heard people say that Utley is not a HOF 2B yet, but if you support Sandberg, then you have no reason to refute Utley.
    People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. -Rogers Hornsby

  5. #5
    I'm not so certain.
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  6. #6
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    In my opinion, Sandberg did himself no favors by coming back, and should have stayed retired. His shadow covered more ground than he did at 2nd base.
    "Look at it, man", he said as if he had read my thoughts. "they call it America, and they call it civilization, and they call it television, and they believe in it and salute it and sing songs to it and eat and sleep and die still believing in it, and---and---I don't know", he said, taking another drag, "then some time the Mets come along and win the World Series___" Gram Parsons, quoted by Stanley Booth in Dance With The Devil

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    Sort of a weird tangent, but I wonder how many players have been hurt by having an unstable home life versus how many have been helped by a stable home life? Hard to figure out exactly, because the stable guys aren't in the news for having a loving wife, etc. usually. Sandberg was definitely hurt by Mrs. Corncob Dress.
    "They say Cub fans are supposed to be behind you, and they're ripping everything we do. I hope we get hotter than * just to stuff those people. If they're the real Chicago Cubs fans, they can kiss my * * right downtown. Those * don't even work. Eighty-five percent of the country is working, and the other fifteen percent is out here. " -- Lee Elia, Cubs manager, 1983

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
    Sort of a weird tangent, but I wonder how many players have been hurt by having an unstable home life versus how many have been helped by a stable home life? Hard to figure out exactly, because the stable guys aren't in the news for having a loving wife, etc. usually. Sandberg was definitely hurt by Mrs. Corncob Dress.
    I remember when he retired the first time, he said at the press conference, with his wife standing beside him in the aforementioned dress, that he wanted to spend more time with his family. What was it, about two weeks later, he was filing for divorce?
    "Look at it, man", he said as if he had read my thoughts. "they call it America, and they call it civilization, and they call it television, and they believe in it and salute it and sing songs to it and eat and sleep and die still believing in it, and---and---I don't know", he said, taking another drag, "then some time the Mets come along and win the World Series___" Gram Parsons, quoted by Stanley Booth in Dance With The Devil

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    Quote Originally Posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    I remember when he retired the first time, he said at the press conference, with his wife standing beside him in the aforementioned dress, that he wanted to spend more time with his family. What was it, about two weeks later, he was filing for divorce?
    IMO things like this do indeed factor into gameplay and production. I think the reason Prince Fielder looked so lost in 2013 is because of his divorce.
    People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. -Rogers Hornsby

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    Yes. His HOF case wasn't aided by his playing time after he came back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francoeurstein View Post
    IMO things like this do indeed factor into gameplay and production. I think the reason Prince Fielder looked so lost in 2013 is because of his divorce.
    I remember sometime in the later 1980s reading an interview with George Brett where he said he would be a bachelor throughout his entire career. He said it wasn't worth it, what with all the temptation around the hotels in every city they played in on the road. Said he saw too many teammates get into trouble being married and away from home so much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francoeurstein View Post
    IMO things like this do indeed factor into gameplay and production. I think the reason Prince Fielder looked so lost in 2013 is because of his divorce.
    I was thinking of Fielder also. The strong rumor I'm getting second hand from White Sox sources is that the White Sox picked up Avisail Garcia because Prince Fielder found out that Garcia and Fielder's wife were too 'friendly'. Detroit wanted to keep Fielder happy, so they dumped Garcia. Sadly for Detroit, Fielder only lasted anothe half season in Detroit before he was gone.
    "They say Cub fans are supposed to be behind you, and they're ripping everything we do. I hope we get hotter than * just to stuff those people. If they're the real Chicago Cubs fans, they can kiss my * * right downtown. Those * don't even work. Eighty-five percent of the country is working, and the other fifteen percent is out here. " -- Lee Elia, Cubs manager, 1983

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francoeurstein View Post
    I agree fellas. I just made this point because this certain section of Sandberg's career is eerily similar to Chase Utley's entire body of work. I've heard people say that Utley is not a HOF 2B yet, but if you support Sandberg, then you have no reason to refute Utley.
    Sandberg was more highly regarded in his day, for whatever reason.

    Sandberg won an near-unanimous MVP in 1984 and had two other top-5 finishes.
    Utley's highest MVP finish was 7th.

    Sandberg has 2,300+ hits. UTley won't reach 2,000.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Sandberg was more highly regarded in his day, for whatever reason.

    Sandberg won an near-unanimous MVP in 1984 and had two other top-5 finishes.
    Utley's highest MVP finish was 7th.

    Sandberg has 2,300+ hits. UTley won't reach 2,000.
    I guarantee if Utley's peak occurred 5 years later, he'd get more love from MVP voters. Voters weren't as SABR minded in 2006.
    People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. -Rogers Hornsby

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francoeurstein View Post
    I guarantee if Utley's peak occurred 5 years later, he'd get more love from MVP voters. Voters weren't as SABR minded in 2006.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiambiJuice View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Sandberg was more highly regarded in his day, for whatever reason.

    Sandberg won an near-unanimous MVP in 1984 and had two other top-5 finishes.
    Utley's highest MVP finish was 7th.

    Sandberg has 2,300+ hits. UTley won't reach 2,000.
    Sandberg is far better. This reminds me to put Utley on the overrated thread

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    Sandberg is far better. This reminds me to put Utley on the overrated thread
    Utley trails Sandberg in career WAR, 61.5 to 67.5. But Utley has played in 686 fewer games. Utley is FAR better than Sandberg on a per game basis. He even has a higher DWar number despite all those fewer games he has played.

    Check out each players average per 162 games.

    PLAYER - G...... PA... AB ...R.....H.. 2B. 3B HR. RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
    Sandberg 162... 695. 628...99. 179. 30 6 21 79 26 8 57 94 .285 .344 .452 .795 114
    Utley...... 162... 694. 603 101 172... 37 5 25 97 15 2 66 101 .285 .370 .488 .858 125

    What do you see there that would make you think that Sandberg is far better?

    If Utley can play at a good level for the next 2-3 years his numbers will be much better than Sandberg's numbers.
    Last edited by SavoyBG; 12-22-2014 at 10:13 PM.

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    All those numbers between Ryno and Utley are true, and I am not disputing it. However, Ryno also went through his decline phase in those numbers whereas Chase has not. Both played in very offense friendly parks, but Ryno also did so in many more unfriendly years for hitters. For me, looking at how close those numbers are right now -- with Chase still facing his declining years (which hopefully won't be too terrible) -- I think they are very close and would still take Sandberg by a hair.
    "I thought Maris was the one guy we needed. He was a complete player who could field, throw and run." Whitey Ford

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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr28 View Post
    For me, looking at how close those numbers are right now -- with Chase still facing his declining years (which hopefully won't be too terrible) -- I think they are very close and would still take Sandberg by a hair.
    They are not all that close. An OPS+ of 125 to just 114 for Ryno. Ten more XBH, 9 more walks, and 18 more RBI per 162 for Chase. And better defensive numbers too. Not to mention Chase's record tying 5 HR world series in 2009.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr28 View Post
    However, Ryno also went through his decline phase in those numbers whereas Chase has not.
    Remove Ryno's decline phase and Utley's numbers are still better on a per-game basis, maybe even overall. Here's each player's ten best consecutive seasons....

    Sandberg, 1984-93: 6542 PA, 944 R, 1742 H, 282 2B, 225 HR, 779 RBI, 569 BB, .296/.357/.478/.835, 126 OPS+, 56.0 WAR (6.0 WAR/162)
    Utley, 2005-14: 5896 PA, 877 R, 1466 H, 313 2B, 213 HR, 808 RBI, 577 BB, .288/.374/.492/.866, 127 OPS+, 59.0 WAR (7.0 WAR/162)

    WAR has Utley as a (somewhat significantly) better fielder, but Ryno beats him in things like durability and stolen bases. I really could go either way on this one. One thing to note about Utley: those numbers posted include seasons (2011-14) that may wind up being viewed as (at least part of) his decline phase.
    Last edited by Senor Octobre; 12-23-2014 at 09:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senor Octobre View Post
    Remove Ryno's decline phase and Utley's numbers are still better on a per-game basis, maybe even overall. Here's each player's ten best consecutive seasons....

    Sandberg, 1984-93: 6542 PA, 944 R, 1742 H, 282 2B, 225 HR, 779 RBI, 569 BB, .296/.357/.478/.835, 126 OPS+, 56.0 WAR (6.0 WAR/162)
    Utley, 2005-14: 5896 PA, 877 R, 1466 H, 313 2B, 213 HR, 808 RBI, 577 BB, .288/.374/.492/.866, 127 OPS+, 59.0 WAR (7.0 WAR/162)

    WAR has Utley as a (somewhat significantly) better fielder, but Ryno beats him in things like durability and stolen bases. I really could go either way on this one. One thing to note about Utley: those numbers posted include seasons (2011-14) that may wind up being viewed as (at least part of) his decline phase.
    The seasons 2010-2014 are more in line with what offense was like in most of Ryno's entire career -- certainly before the insane "retirement" and subsequent year off from baseball before returning to really decline. Utley has played in a very hitter-friendly park, in more of a hitter-friendly time (2005-2009), with more hitter-friendly parks to play in on the road than Ryno did. For me, the difference doesn't really make up for these things.

    I have no problem with Utley, I really like him, and I am by no means a huge Ryno fan (I spent more years cussing that man than I ever said something nice about him), but I am not just going to try and match up numbers from two very different times/environments and say one was better because of those numbers without considering the other things too.

    Some take Chase over Ryne, and that is fine. I understand that, but I don't feel it is all right there in the numbers as they stand -- without discussion of how those numbers were compiled.
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  23. #23
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    I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of those points. I really don't know who I'd take between the two (I'm leaning Utley).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senor Octobre View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of those points. I really don't know who I'd take between the two (I'm leaning Utley).
    Being a huge fan of second basemen, I found it very nice to see them both with the Phillies last year. I would love to get out there and field some grounders, turn two, and shoot the breeze with them both.
    "I thought Maris was the one guy we needed. He was a complete player who could field, throw and run." Whitey Ford

    "[Roger Maris] played hard and played hurt and was one of the fastest guys in baseball. Roger was a great player and I was glad he was coming to New York." Johnny Blanchard

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    Sandberg is far better. This reminds me to put Utley on the overrated thread
    I think Utley is underrated.
    People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. -Rogers Hornsby

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