Edgar Martinez in the Hall??

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by Cougar
20% is way, way too extreme. Your point about Yaz illustrates that. And Molitor. And Frank Thomas. And Reggie Jackson.

I think when you get above, say, 50% of your AB as a DH -- I'm not inclined to say never, but such a player really needs something like 3000 hits or a .330 average or 600 HR or something.

Edgar's awfully close, but assuming he's not going to play five more years, I think he's a little short.

No it isn't. That's 1/5 of your playing time. If your career is 2,000 games, that 400 games you spent as a DH. The rules essentially prevent you from taking the field after you've been the DH, because the PITCHER would have to bat in your spot.

You spent over 2 1/2 seasons PADDING your "counting" stats as a full-time PH, and you expect to get into the hall?

Nope.

[Etheridge2]

Originally posted by Cougar
Is it really a refusal? I think it's more of a mutual thing between him and the M's -- everyone pretty much agrees it's a bad idea.

For a long time he wasn't entirely unwilling, but his hammys have gotten so bad he's been basically physically unable to play the field for some time.

yes it is Edgar has gone on record as saying if they did away with the DH he would retire he has NO DESIRE to play the field...and that is JUST SAD...i'm with NV 110% on this one Edgar is in my book 100% NOT A HALL OF FAMER and short of accumulating eye popping numbers will never be...

he would need a .350+ career average 4000hits 600HR 2000RBI 2000Runs just for me to seriously consider him the typical benchmarks aren't good enough for a guy who doesn't take the field....3000 hits isn't good enough if all you are doing is hitting you should be better then that...

As for pitchers it doesn't matter that they don't hit because very few have ever really contributed with the bat anyway...

Though i would rather see Jose Lima stepping to the plate after plunking a guy then Ken Harvey..

[Captain Cold Nose]

I'm not as adamant about the dh as CardFan is (you must dream of the double switch) but I have to concur with Etheridge. His counting stats need to be far better.

[Cougar]

Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
I'm not as adamant about the dh as CardFan is (you must dream of the double switch) but I have to concur with Etheridge. His counting stats need to be far better.

I agree; this is my position too.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by Cougar
I agree; this is my position too.

Are you all actually suggesting we discriminate against an entire position? Are you saying that because he only hits standards should be set higher? He plays a position, an actual position. Its in the rule books, go ahead check, its there. Edgar Martinez has put up better numbers then any other DH. He is "Mr. DH". If you don't like the DH, then fine, hate the rule. Don't hate the players. Had he stayed at 3rd base and posted these numbers, most everyone here would agree he deserves to be in the HOF.

[Cougar]

Originally posted by CardFanNV
No it isn't. That's 1/5 of your playing time. If your career is 2,000 games, that 400 games you spent as a DH. The rules essentially prevent you from taking the field after you've been the DH, because the PITCHER would have to bat in your spot.

You spent over 2 1/2 seasons PADDING your "counting" stats as a full-time PH, and you expect to get into the hall?

Nope.

Then Reggie Jackson (630 games as DH, 23%) isn't a HOF.

Then Paul Molitor (1174 games as DH, 44%) isn't a HOF.

20% is too high a standard. Take Jackson's case. He was a mediocre fielder for most of his career, but absent the DH, he would have played the field every day (maybe not at the very end of his career, but all but the last year or two). But the DH rule exists, and managers are going to use it to try to win. Often, after the starting 8, the best hitter on the bench is a corner OF/1b type. So a manager will use that sort of guy as a DH, and he'll rotate the DH slot to rest guys. So good hitters are going to accumulate DH at-bats for strategic reasons only peripherally related to their talent. It's just the nature of a game played with a DH rule.

Now, you have a guy like Edgar, who can't play the field at all, that's different.

[Cougar]

Originally posted by tearforamariner
Are you all actually suggesting we discriminate against an entire position? Are you saying that because he only hits standards should be set higher? He plays a position, an actual position. Its in the rule books, go ahead check, its there. Edgar Martinez has put up better numbers then any other DH. He is "Mr. DH". If you don't like the DH, then fine, hate the rule. Don't hate the players. Had he stayed at 3rd base and posted these numbers, most everyone here would agree he deserves to be in the HOF.

I'm not discriminating against the position; I'm just weighting it. You are right, if Edgar had put up these stats at 3b, he's a HOF. But if he did it primarily as a lousy fielding LF or 1b (in other words, something close to nil defensive value), I'd still think the counting stats were a little short.

I think a guy with virtually no defensive value needs to get a lot more than 2000 hits and 300 HR to make the HOF. There's just too many guys that have done that sort of thing.

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
I'm not as adamant about the dh as CardFan is (you must dream of the double switch) but I have to concur with Etheridge. His counting stats need to be far better.

It's not about double switching, or anything else. To be a HOF ballplayer, you should be able to excel in more than just one facet of the game. The way the rule is written, if you DH and go into the field later, your team LOSES the DH because the person you were batting for (usually the pitcher) must hit in your vacated position.

DH can only hit and run bases. Most of them are not what you would consider "fleet". That's why Pujols does it when the Cards play interleague.

So they excel at maybe 2 of the 5 "tools". Hit for average and power. Edgar has done that. But that's only two out of five. Not enough.

Killebrew could only do one of five. Hit for power.

Big Mac could only do one of five. Hit for power.

I wouldn't have voted for either.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by CardFanNV
It's not about double switching, or anything else. To be a HOF ballplayer, you should be able to excel in more than just one facet of the game. The way the rule is written, if you DH and go into the field later, your team LOSES the DH because the person you were batting for (usually the pitcher) must hit in your vacated position.

DH can only hit and run bases. Most of them are not what you would consider "fleet". That's why Pujols does it when the Cards play interleague.

So they excel at maybe 2 of the 5 "tools". Hit for average and power. Edgar has done that. But that's only two out of five. Not enough.

Killebrew could only do one of five. Hit for power.

Big Mac could only do one of five. Hit for power.

I wouldn't have voted for either.

Killebrew's in the Hall and Big Mac's on his way to being there. Are you saying that even though YOU don't think Edgar should be in the HOF, he will?

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by Cougar
Then Reggie Jackson (630 games as DH, 23%) isn't a HOF.

Then Paul Molitor (1174 games as DH, 44%) isn't a HOF.

20% is too high a standard. Take Jackson's case. He was a mediocre fielder for most of his career, but absent the DH, he would have played the field every day (maybe not at the very end of his career, but all but the last year or two). But the DH rule exists, and managers are going to use it to try to win. Often, after the starting 8, the best hitter on the bench is a corner OF/1b type. So a manager will use that sort of guy as a DH, and he'll rotate the DH slot to rest guys. So good hitters are going to accumulate DH at-bats for strategic reasons only peripherally related to their talent. It's just the nature of a game played with a DH rule.

Now, you have a guy like Edgar, who can't play the field at all, that's different.

Exactly ................................... Molitor played too many games at DH. Reggie was lacking at other parts of his game. Reggie would merit special consideration for his WS exploits, along with guys like Larsen. A "Special Achievments Wing", if you will.

Here's a good example. Yaz was not a full-time DH until his final 2 seasons. He ALREADY had 3,000 hits, 600 doubles and 400 HR by then. He would have qualified without needing "padded stats".

Murray DH'd for 58 games at the ripe old age of 32 in his last year with the O's. Whether or not this was HIS idea is debatable, because he went to the NL for 5 seasons. Apparently, he could still play.

Here's the list of those with 500 HR and 3,000 hits

Aaron
Mays
Murray

Which name doesn't seem to hit?

Aaron and Mays obliterated 500 HR. And they played the field for the vast majority of their careers. Mays was NEVER a DH.

Murray played nearly 500 games at the "position".

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by tearforamariner
Killebrew's in the Hall and Big Mac's on his way to being there. Are you saying that even though YOU don't think Edgar should be in the HOF, he will?

Voters always have this pile a magic numbers, which they think automatically qualifies you for the hall. No matter HOW BAD you are at anything else, 500 HR is pretty much a lock.

I totally disagree.

I think, in Edgar's case, the fact that he has been primarily a DH will certainly be held against him. He won't make it. Neither should Molitor, but he probably will.

[Cougar]

Let me get this straight...you're questioning Eddie Murray, Mark McGwire, and Harmon Killebrew now?

Of course Murray is not in Mays' or Aaron's class -- that 500-3000 club is more a coincidence than anything else. But Murray's an upper-tier guy; the fact that he DH'ed a bit is completely irrelevant.

Again -- Murray was played at DH by managers because the position was available and they usually had two 1b types that could hit. It was not that he was a poor fielder; in fact, for the first half of his career, he was outstanding, and he was never bad. The DH may have extended his career a couple years at the very end, but so what -- he'd earned the HOF anyway by then.

McGwire hardly DH'ed at all (37 games). Killebrew only in his last two seasons. No, they couldn't run at all, and Killebrew was a poor fielder (Big Mac was actually a rather good first baseman), but they had great on-base skills and they were two of the very best pure sluggers (top 10 -- maybe top 5) of all time.

Well-roundedness is important, but not everything. Greatness is more than a checklist.

Originally posted by CardFanNV
Exactly ................................... Molitor played too many games at DH. Reggie was lacking at other parts of his game. Reggie would merit special consideration for his WS exploits, along with guys like Larsen. A "Special Achievments Wing", if you will.

Here's a good example. Yaz was not a full-time DH until his final 2 seasons. He ALREADY had 3,000 hits, 600 doubles and 400 HR by then. He would have qualified without needing "padded stats".

Murray DH'd for 58 games at the ripe old age of 32 in his last year with the O's. Whether or not this was HIS idea is debatable, because he went to the NL for 5 seasons. Apparently, he could still play.

Here's the list of those with 500 HR and 3,000 hits

Aaron
Mays
Murray

Which name doesn't seem to hit?

Aaron and Mays obliterated 500 HR. And they played the field for the vast majority of their careers. Mays was NEVER a DH.

Murray played nearly 500 games at the "position".

[Brad Harris]

Originally posted by Etheridge2
...[Edgar Martinez] would need a .350+ career average 4000hits 600HR 2000RBI 2000Runs just for me to seriously consider him

This from someone who supports Jack Morris' induction!

[tearforamariner]

Think about this: When Edgar hits his 300th HR and his 500th 2B, will have 300 home runs, 500 doubles, a .400 OB%, a .500 SLG%, and a .300 BA. He's one of the greatest pure hitters of all-time, and deserves to be in the Hall.

[MasonDixon]

Originally posted by tearforamariner
Think about this: When Edgar hits his 300th HR and his 500th 2B, will have 300 home runs, 500 doubles, a .400 OB%, a .500 SLG%, and a .300 BA. He's one of the greatest pure hitters of all-time, and deserves to be in the Hall.

Not to mention that he's one of the (if not THE) best DH of all-time and has been the best DH in the majors for almost a decade.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by MasonDixon
Not to mention that he's one of the (if not THE) best DH of all-time and has been the best DH in the majors for almost a decade.

No doubt about it, he was the best DH. But that's the problem: People don't think a Dh belongs in Cooperstown.

[TXRangerFan]

If Martinez played 3rd base for his entire career would he be a viable candidate?

If he played first base would he?

I don't think so.

He doesn't play a position.
He can't run.
He doesn't have the career numbers.

I see a tendency on the part of some to qualify his statistics by comparing them to other players who were DH's for the majority of their careers.

It's very similar to the logic used when people qualify the statistics for second basemen and shortstops by comparing them to others who played that position.

That isn't a correct line of thinking IMO..A DH has one job and that's to hit..and 2000 hits, 1200RBI and 300 homers isn't going to cut it IMO.

A DH isn't a position it's a role.

Is Edgar one of the greatest hitters of this era? Yes when healthy.

The problem is that he hasn't been healthy and all those projection based stats are going to run out of projection room soon.

2000 hits is 2000 hits, that's all it is..300 homers is 300 homers...no more, no less...480 doubles is 480 doubles..in a career that began in 1987 he has had one major responsibility..and that is to hit...he's done it well when healthy but he's been unhealthy often and therefore he does not have the career marks.

One has to assume that due to the relatively poor career statistics for dh's compared to position players..that the reason they could not play in the field was because of physical limitations imposed by lack of athleticism more than anything relating to injury. In Edgar's case it was obviously injury...but you can't give him credit for what he didn't do..and he wasn't there for his team a lot of the time.

I mean why haven't there been more great hitters that played DH? Why are their career benchmarks so poor compared to those who played actual positions? I am always going to wonder that...

But what I do know is that when Raffy played DH for about 2/3rds of the 99 season he set records in HR and RBI..that Edgar busted his tail the following year to catch. Why didn't he do that more often or sooner?

I mean all he had to do was hit...he played in what at one time was one of the greatest lineups in baseball history..he's got zero excuse for his lack of numbers injured or otherwise...

Molitor was injured, he still put up the numbers..

If you are going to excuse Edgar's injuries then you have to excuse Canseco's..I mean he still played in the field quite often..basically you are going to create a whole different standard for HOF admission..

Because any position player is going to be able to make a justified argument that if he has equal numbers to Edgar he is more of a HOF'er because he also played in the field.


Edgar's bad health while unfortunate, is a double strike IMO...he was injury prone playing only one half of the game.

What you have is a very one dimensional player..I mean he has one dimension and that is it, he's really not much of a home run hitter for this era, he has no speed..but even within that dimension he lacks the career benchmarks that would qualify most hitters for the HOF.

The day Edgar gets let in you are going to have to explain to Chili
Davis and Harold Baines why they aren't in the HOF...

1500 runs wins more games than 1200..no matter how you look at it.

And even worse you are going to have to explain to Steve Garvey, Will Clark and Don Mattingly why they aren't in the HOF when they put up better numbers plus they were better defensive players.

How can he be half the player they were doing half the job and be more qulified for the HOF?

For a DH to make the HOF he has to hit..he has to hit great season in and season out and he has to have the career numbers..moreso than any other position on the diamond.

Just because most of the DH's in AL history have sucked ..well that's not a good reason for letting a guy with out any career benchmarks inspite of a 17 year career..that's not a good reason to let him in.

[TXRangerFan]

Originally posted by tearforamariner
No doubt about it, he was the best DH. But that's the problem: People don't think a Dh belongs in Cooperstown.

Any player should be eligible for the HOF, DH or otherwise..

But the hitting standards should be higher for a DH than positional players, or at least as high..not less because of a lack of truly great hitters in that role.

Chancellor, as always, made a very compelling argument on Edgar's behalf...

But the flaw is...those statistics he cited were projection based more than anything...it doesn't matter how good a player was when healthy, if he wasn't in the lineup, he wasn't able to help his team win or contribute..and when a player only plays half of the game he's got less of an excuse for not being there than any position players.

Chancellor posted Edgar's impressive RC totals and his nice OPS(and sub stats)...

But what I see is that in 17 years Edgar has 1200 BB, 2000 hits 1100 runs, 1200 RBI, 480 doubles, 300 homers and a 317 AVG..with a 405OBP and a 52+ SLG...

But then I look at Jeff Bagwell and in 13 seasons I see 1400 runs, 1350+BB, 1400 RBI, 400 HR, 450 doubles, nearly 200 SB's a GG...

In 4 fewer years Bagwell has put up superior numbers..Edgar may have excellent numbers for his per game averages but the fact remains when a player has better stats in every single raw category he did more to help his team win..projecting less or otherwise..Bagwell played in the field suffering additional wear and tear as well...

It's just not fair to positional players to put a DH on an even level..the DH has less of a job..the hitting standards need to be higher across the board for a career DH and he needs to put up the superior numbers both in raw form and in per game statistics and his numbers need to be judged against the best hitters in the game regardless of their position. .

[tearforamariner]

Edgar also has a .316 career BA, .423 OB%, and a .527 SLG. When he hits 13 more doubles and 5 more home runs he will have 500 2B and 300 HR. When he does that, he'll join an elite group. Would you like to guess how many players have a .300+ BA, .400+ OB%, .500+ SLG, 500+ 3B, and 300+ HR?

[tearforamariner]

Bagwell has had more at-bats as well. Why should DHs be held at a hire standard? DO they get more chances to hit?

[TXRangerFan]

I can do better than that, I can find guys with a 330 AVG 400OBP and a 600 SLG that also racked up 700 - 800 more hits 5- 600 more runs and RBI and an extra 200 - 400 homers over those totals.

And they did it playing in the field.

He is getting in that selective group by by some very low totals.

The 40 - 40 club is a selective group does that mean Jose gets in as well?

So is 30 - 30 does that mean Ron Gant deserves entry?

The standards should be higher for DH's because they don't suffer the additional wear and tear that other players do playing in the field. Because they have only one job and it's to hit. If a guy is getting in for his defense he usually has to have about 10 GG's...IOW he has to be a better defender than the typical HOF'er..A DH should be a better hitter than the typical HOF'er..


Look the HOF isn't just about hitting..it's about being a great player...

One dimensional players do get in from time to time, as in the case of Ozzie Smith..but he is considered the best ever defensive short stop he was unquestionably the greatest defensive SS of his era. And I know you want to say Edgar is the best ever DH...although I'd argue that..Frank Thomas is right there with him...Edgar's position is hitting..is he the best ever hitter? No he isn't..he isn't even the best of his era...he isn't even the best combo power average hitter of his era...

If a player is going to be judged soley by one dimension, in this case hitting..then he better be giving Ted Williams and Barry Bonds a run for their money.


And you are right, Bagwell does have more at bats, he's played in more games, inspite of his career beginning 4 years after Martinez...That's because Bagwell has been healthier..and therefore he's contributed more to his teams in 14 years than Martinez has in 17.

Why should Martinez be given a bonus for injury? Why should Bagwell be penalized for good health and being a complete player?

As I said earlier, his projection and per game statistics are nice..but his career stats aren't even close in any area other than doubles. If he is getting in without using a glove he needs to be competitive in every aspect of hitting, and from a career numbers perspective he falls very very short, inspite of having to only focus on one aspect of the game and getting to rest every other half inning for the majority of his career.

Frank Thomas has better numbers in a shorter career..and he is gonna get the 500 homers 1700 RBI etc...Frank Thomas just might make it..But Edgar comes out short on career numbers.

2000 hits in 17 years doesn't cut it.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by TXRangerFan
I can do better than that, I can find guys with a 330 AVG 400OBP and a 600 SLG that also racked up 700 - 800 more hits 5- 600 more runs and RBI and an extra 200 - 400 homers over those totals.

Show them to me.

[TXRangerFan]

Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Jimmy Foxx, Lou Gehrig...

He's not close to those guys in any single area except doubles..he's dwarfed and im most cases they stole more bases than he did too, while playing in the field.

Edgar's stats aren't even unique to this era...Bagwell and Thomas have superior stats in fewer years, while spending more time in the field. Ramirez has similar stats in 8 or 9 years....

Even Piazza who has the most grueling job on the baseball field has better numbers in just about every category...

Your boy Olerud has similar numbers to Martinez in far fewer years..

All those guys didn't get to rest every half inning...they've put up comparable numbers in 4-5 fewer seasons.

300 homers and a 317 AVG gets you in as a hitter...if you are George Brett and tack on another 1000 hits and 100 doubles.

Edit: And BTW...RE Your Sig...

Jeff Bagwell, Chipper Jones, Frank Thomas, Larry Walker, Jim Thome and Gary Sheffield all have a 400 OBP and a 500 SLG in over 5000 AB...Manny needs about 60 more AB's to join the club and Giambi will join it next season.

[TXRangerFan]

I've got a question for you as well..

If Edgar gets in, do you think Mattingly, Clark, Garvey, and Keith Hernandez should get in?

Do you think Chili Davis and Harold Baines deserve entry on the basis of better career numbers?

What about Andrea Galaraga? He's got basically the same power numbers, he won a career TC, he's got two GG's?

Where does defensive ability factor into it for positional players? Does it count for anything? Or is it an overrated aspect of the game IYO?

I like Edgar, he is the best DH in history.. but I do think the hitting standard needs to be as high if not higher for a DH as a positional player, the same way it is for a player getting in for his defensive prowess...

Where do you think defensive ability and career numbers should rate?

[abolishthedh]

TFAM, Edgar was a fine, fine hitter and he's always been one of my favorite players because he's a class guy. He was a better fielder than a lot of people remember, too. But TXRangerFan has it right here-- Edgar doesn't belong in the Hall.

No DH belongs in the Hall as of today, and if it ever happens it will be after that DH has walked on water for about 20 years. I am not banning DHs from the Hall, but one dimensional players are one dimensional players. In fact, I question whether Rollie Fingers belongs in the Hall! IMO, the only reliever who could belong in the Hall might be Eckersley because Eckersley was NOT one dimensional (he also won 20 games once). My point is that one dimensional players belong in the Hall only after proving themselves as Ted Williams' equal.

A rising sea raises all boats. This means that we will have an ongoing major debate in the upcoming years. One or the other factors has to give: either we raise the standards for the Hall, or we compromise the integrity of the Hall and let more players in. I'm willing to bet that a lot of fans' loyalty to baseball and belief in the Hall will be tested over that.

I still love Edgar, but can't support his Hall prospects. As a matter of conjecture, I still wonder how Atlanta's Bob Horner would have hit had he played in the AL and accepted the DH role. Trust me, Bob Horner would have put up numbers like Edgar's. Other players might have done the same: Pedro Guerrero, Greg Luzinski, George Foster. These guys chose not to play baseball when forced to play as a DH later in their careers.