Alligator Arms

[Chris O'Leary]

I see the Pete Rose video does not show arm extension after contact...but would love to see another (game) video of him. The reason I say this is that when a MLB player hits the ball hard...he almost always extends his arms after contact. And I only know this because 95 percent of every mlb hitter I have in my RVP software program does this -- so why not teach it as the right way? Show me some video of current players pounding the ball to the fence who do not extend...then I will change my view

I've always had the same thought about that clip.

The problem is that we don't know what he was trying to do or anything about the context of the clip.

Maybe it was because Rose was a contact hitter and maybe it was because Rose took a non-game swing.

Here's an OH view of Lenny Dykstra hitting a HR to RF in 1993 that shows a slight different hand path (but still mostly circular)...



For a CF view of the swing go to...

- Swing Analysis - Lenny Dykstra

[Chris O'Leary]

Coach, I think the key words you used were "always extends his arms after contact", with AFTER the most important. As can be seen in the four pictures you posted, extension happens well AFTER contact as evidenced by the location of all four baseballs and the positions of the hitters' arms.

I am not advocating that extension not take place after contact, only that it not happen before, or right at POC . . . that's all.

Just to be clear, and to demonstrate that I'm not a connection fundamentalist, I will be the first to admit that on occasion you WILL see extension at the POC, but it's generally not on a hitter's best swing. Instead, it's usually when they chase a slider or get fooled by a curve or change-up.

[Chris O'Leary]

Charles thinks alligator arms in golf is a good thing.... I am kinda leaning towards golf and baseball being two different animals!!

Exactly.

A golf ball is stable in 3 dimensions, while a baseball is moving in three dimensions (coming in at 90MPH and tailing and sinking).

That's a non-trivial difference.

[Chris O'Leary]

We will see which ball comes off of the bats quicker and harder to determine which method affords more power, snap, crackle, or pop, or anything else you want to call it.

Not to mention who's got more adjustability.

As HG pointed out way back when, if Woggy's PV at POC guy gets fooled by a slider or change-up, he's got no adjustability left (other than lunging) and thus he's well and truly screwed.

[mudvnine]

Just to be clear, and to demonstrate that I'm not a connection fundamentalist, I will be the first to admit that on occasion you WILL see extension at the POC, but it's generally not on a hitter's best swing. Instead, it's usually when they chase a slider or get fooled by a curve or change-up.

Oh yeah, I agree 100% that full extension will occassionally happen at POC, but as you say it is a corrective, reactionary, or last ditch effort to get the bat on the ball and is in not the MLB standard.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Here's an OH view of Lenny Dykstra hitting a HR to RF in 1993 that shows a slight different hand path (but still mostly circular)...

In the link below Jack Mankin makes a pretty good argument for a Circular Hand Path.

Jack Mankin - no 'bypass', circular hand path

[Chris O'Leary]

In the link below Jack Mankin makes a pretty good argument for a Circular Hand Path.

Jack Mankin - no 'bypass', circular hand path

Every good hand path is mostly circular, but adjustments will cause it to distort somewhat on some swings.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Every good hand path is mostly circular, but adjustments will cause it to distort somewhat on some swings.

Preston Peavy describes it as semi-circular.

Peavy - Not Circular, Not Linear, But Semi-Circular

[mudvnine]

Not to mention who's got more adjustability.

As HG pointed out way back when, if Woggy's PV at POC guy gets fooled by a slider or change-up, he's got not adjustability left (other than lunging) and thus he's well and truly screwed.

I guess you don't need adjust ability when trained by certain instructors, because . . .

its the same swing imo timing is timing,,either you can time something or you cant ,,thats not the issue..the issue is what makes the ball go further... been down the alligator arm road already its a power robber,,

I need to find a better quality of student, because none of mine came with the innate ability to recognize the type of pitch, determine its velocity, and then time their launch appropriately to have the linear ball and the circular bat paths meet at that exact split second and still be able to "release there hands" perfectly. . . all in under five-tenths of a second or less.

Ahhh, but to dream, can't imagine the team I could put together if only the majority of them had this ability. Hell, having that kind of timing ability would allow them drop a ball within a foot of exactly where they wanted . . . Alright, that's it, I'm having more tryouts this weekend. . . there must be loads of them out there, how does just one guy get them all???

[yafu]

Ok, if triceps is ignorable, how about, say, deltoids?
Specificially, for the deltoids of front arm, let upperarm touching your chest or chin be 0 degree, pointing forward be 90 degrees, pointing sideway be 180 degrees, and the maximum range be 135 degrees like when scapula is loaded. Which range is the most powerful part?

[dominik]

I've always had the same thought about that clip.

The problem is that we don't know what he was trying to do or anything about the context of the clip.

Maybe it was because Rose was a contact hitter and maybe it was because Rose took a non-game swing.

Here's an OH view of Lenny Dykstra hitting a HR to RF in 1993 that shows a slight different hand path (but still mostly circular)...



For a CF view of the swing go to...

- Swing Analysis - Lenny Dykstra

I like his hip action and separation, but why is he pulling that outside ball?

[Chris O'Leary]

Ok, if triceps is ignorable, how about, say, deltoids?
Specificially, for the deltoids of front arm, let upperarm touching your chest or chin be 0 degree, pointing forward be 90 degrees, pointing sideway be 180 degrees, and the maximum range be 135 degrees like when scapula is loaded. Which range is the most powerful part?

No, b/c the deltoids move in the wrong direction.

Again, the muscles have to maintain connection. Extension will take care of itself.

[Chris O'Leary]

I like his hip action and separation, but why is he pulling that outside ball?

Actually, the CF view shows the pitch is middle low.

He IS a bit extended at the POC due to the sink on the ball, but he extends at the last second.

Also, the count was 3-1, so he was probably sitting on a sinker.

[hitnpeas]

I guess you don't need adjust ability when trained by certain instructors, because . . .



I need to find a better quality of student, because none of mine came with the innate ability to recognize the type of pitch, determine its velocity, and then time their launch appropriately to have the linear ball and the circular bat paths meet at that exact split second and still be able to "release there hands" perfectly. . . all in under five-tenths of a second or less.

Ahhh, but to dream, can't imagine the team I could put together if only the majority of them had this ability. Hell, having that kind of timing ability would allow them drop a ball within a foot of exactly where they wanted . . . Alright, that's it, I'm having more tryouts this weekend. . . there must be loads of them out there, how does just one guy get them all???

We have 9 of em here that we pulled out of school in the 8th grade about 10 years ago... I figured I would start my own private high school so Ive had em doing drills in the basement 23 hours a day, every day for over 10 years! I believe I have the best/only group of 23 year old H.S. Freshman ever assembled.... You are welcome to come and be the assistant coach/A.D. Please lmk and I will send you an address so you can submit your resume. Don't miss the chance to be a part of the best internet team in history!!

[yafu]

No, b/c the deltoids move in the wrong direction.

Again, the muscles have to maintain connection. Extension will take care of itself.

Really? Not even posterior deltoid???
Ok, then how about internal and external obliques?
If chest facing same direction as belt is 0 degree, turning back to the max so chest facing catcher is -75 degrees, facing pitcher is 75 degrees, which range is the most powerful?
I think it's in the negative range? cause that's what separation's for?
Is it max when it's fully rotated to the negative side?
The positions and direction of contraction of the 4 int,ext obliques are funny so I am not sure if the force along the angle range changes monotonically..

[mudvnine]

Really? Not even posterior deltoid???
Ok, then how about internal and external obliques?
If chest facing same direction as belt is 0 degree, turning back to the max so chest facing catcher is -75 degrees, facing pitcher is 75 degrees, which range is the most powerful?
I think it's in the negative range? cause that's what separation's for?
Is it max when it's fully rotated to the negative side?
The positions and direction of contraction of the 4 int,ext obliques are funny so I am not sure if the force along the angle range changes monotonically..

Yafu, where are you going with this search for the exact degree or ranges of anatomical positioning of the swing? With the number of variables of any given at bat, I think it almost impossible to teach a certain set of angles or degrees of a particular muscle group or joints as the optimum measurement.

Not saying you're wrong for asking, I'm just not following the reasoning behind the line of questions.

[LAball]

Is it max when it's fully rotated to the negative side?

Yea force is maxed if your Lumber joints are in negative rotation. Maybe not max, but close to it. I wouldnt bother working on strengthening it, until you hit like it.

[yafu]

I am not really looking to have a precise degree, but just thought it would be easier to describe. I am asking for these just to see if those should be the range to bounding the POC... like, should I be at these range before or during or after the POC, staying or going through..etc
Should the front arm be more box-like, or closer to the chest? should the back arm fold more or more like a L? are they doing that to keep a lower moment of inertia or are the arms of pros too bulky that they can't be closer/fold more?

[wogdoggy]

I see the Pete Rose video does not show arm extension after contact...but would love to see another (game) video of him. The reason I say this is that when a MLB player hits the ball hard...he almost always extends his arms after contact. And I only know this because 95 percent of every mlb hitter I have in my RVP software program does this -- so why not teach it as the right way? Show me some video of current players pounding the ball to the fence who do not extend...then I will change my view
Attachment 55793

And please don't say I hand-picked these four....then I will have to spend time to find four more and post them and on and on and on.

chris and others ,,if you want to teach alligator arms go ahead,,that tends to happen when you talk about keeping the box..I know i know you DONT want to get your arms extended over the p[late,,PROS dont know what they are doin,,announcers who talk aboput getting their arms extended obver the plate dont know shinola either...My son hit with alligator arms and every instructor I knows say that is a power robber ..NOW we gotta hear how timing issues are screwed up when you want to get your arms extended...

timing is something that you CANT teach,,you can try but that athletiscm..
sure you can say stuff like when the pitcher shows his pocket show him yours BUT either a kid has it or he doesnt,has nothing to do with alligator arm hitting helping your timing..geez..

you hit with alligator arms ,,you are just holding on to the damn bat and turning...try using your arms..you'd be surprised...

[Mark H]

Charles thinks alligator arms in golf is a good thing.... I am kinda leaning towards golf and baseball being two different animals!!

I'm leaning toward Charles being different period.

[Mark H]

you have to release the club head or bat into contact...the RELEASE is what gives you the extra pop..you can get the "FEELING" of what i mean by trying the ty cobb drill or broom drill...or you can hit with alligator arms.

You are giving an answer varying between irrelevant and simplistic to a question you do not understand.

[hitnpeas]

I'm leaning toward Charles being different period.

LOL!! Yeah, but you can't deny how amusing it is to watch him play golf. He has the worst swing I have ever seen, and I have seen some bad ones!!

[hitnpeas]

You are giving an answer varying between irrelevant and simplistic to a question you do not understand.

You mean golf and baseball aren't the same?

[Mark H]

Coach, I think the key words you used were "always extends his arms after contact", with AFTER the most important. As can be seen in the four pictures you posted, extension happens well AFTER contact as evidenced by the location of all four baseballs and the positions of the hitters' arms.

I am not advocating that extension not take place after contact, only that it not happen before, or right at POC . . . that's all.

Yes, unless the offspeed away unanticipated pitch requires that to maintain connection and time the whip. Wait, never mind. I see you included right at POC as an option. I agree with you.

[Mark H]

Exactly what does this do and why? How do you get extra pop by releasing the bat head?

I think what he's sniffing around is trying to understand and describe whip as described by Nyman. Boardmember and Mankin think this involves some active torque between the hands late in the swing as the hinge angle (approx 90 degrees between the bat and the front forearm) quickly opens. I'm of the opinion the great majority of the energy of the whip is from powerful connected rotation. I'm also of the opinion I can't prove it. I'm also of the opinion that if you get that far into the swing in good shape you are likely going to have good results with either instruction.