Yes or no

[Mark H]

Close HP. Casting is when the BAT HEAT moves out prematurely and increases the circumference of the radius. .....

Perhaps now I understand the terminology difference. What you are calling casting, I would describe as prematurely losing the hinge angle.

[BoardMember]

Yeah, exactly. But one effect of this is to move the hands farther away from the axis of rotation.

See, this is where we disagree. Connected Drag happens all the time........

Dragging your rear elbow forward of the hands doesn't cause the hands to move out from the rear shoulder at all..........

IMO you could break CASTING down further. One can "cast the hands" in a manor that your speak.

One can "cast the bat head", without casting the hands, simply by unhinging the angle between the lead arm and bat.........

[Mark H]

Bat drag occurs due to looseness or disconnection in the batter's transfer mechanics that allow the shoulders to rotate without a corresponding angular acceleration of the bat.

Partly and usually yeah. Bat drag can be accomplished without leaving the bat behind and the bat can be left behind without exhibiting bat drag but by and large what you describe is usually part of the problem. Suddartha being a case in point. Fan the front leg open, stretch everything out, failing to tilt over into an athletic position, use the arms find the ball, lay the top hand forearm over in the process and add a link into the kinetic chain while getting the elbow ahead of the hands setting up a big whip into the ball. Just two frames too slow.

[Mark H]

Trapping the bat too deep in the neck slot weakens the Kinetic chain.

Note the flat bottom hand . The result is that there will be a tendency for the lead shoulder to "pull" or "take a hard turn left/right" from this position.

IMO, a lack of connection is part of the issue that led to this "trapped" position.

Problem I see is a late linear push of the hands out toward the pitcher.

[Mark H]

See, this is where we disagree. Connected Drag happens all the time.................

I maintained that at one time but video study convinced me there was pretty much always some lag between shoulder rotation and bat movement during the time bat drag was set up. Not always as I nitpicked with FFS.

Dragging your rear elbow forward of the hands doesn't cause the hands to move out from the rear shoulder at all...................

Not necessarily no.

IMO you could break CASTING down further. One can "cast the hands" in a manor that your speak..........

This is what I see time after time.

One can "cast the bat head", without casting the hands, simply by unhinging the angle between the lead arm and bat.........

Yep. A much much easier problem to fix IME than casting bat drag. Showed a 19 year old what I was talking about on this. She hit well but not like she could because she was failing to maintain the hinge angle/casting by your definition. Next game she did what I asked and came back with this grin on her face looking for me after she lined out hard to F6. Before she spoke I grinned and said "I know". Fun moment and the sort of moment I bother to do this for. Anyway, back from the bunny trail, the fix for that took five minutes most of which was convincing her I was right and why. Fixing Suddartha would take a lot longer than that IME.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Problem I see is a late linear push of the hands out toward the pitcher.

Don't disagree.

IMO it would be best to correct issues further upstream first ... and to move even further upstream for a correction.

[Mark H]

Not sure I'm with you on the location of the upstream problem. There's a clip I want to post but I need to ask permission first. More later. Thanks.

[XV84]

I think your just playing "hard to get" XV........

But for the purposes of your question:

Swing arc can be measured by the circumference of the radius......

That is: linear speed = radius x angular speed. By definition, linear distance=linear speed x time=radius x angular speed x time.

But then you already knew that...........

The radius is measured from a point in the center of the circle to the outside edge of the circle. Where is the center of the circle?

[BoardMember]

The radius is measured from a point in the center of the circle to the outside edge of the circle. Where is the center of the circle?

As viewed from the top it would be the spine........

[Mark H]

Not sure I'm with you on the location of the upstream problem. There's a clip I want to post but I need to ask permission first. More later. Thanks.

OK I have permission to post the clip. Not being up on video perhaps I can email it to Board or Jake to post?

As to the young hitter, I'd say his main problem is needing to get in an athletic position at heel plant and rotate better (see Siggy's clips). Bathead position at launch doesn't bother me. More later.

[Mark H]

This is not the clip I wanted to ask permission to use. That was one of Jeff's which he graciously consented to. I'll get that one up tomorrow perhaps but this one was already linked. FFS, what would you say, looking strictly at the bat head position and angle at launch, of this swing compared to the young lefty's. My thought is, I don't think trapping the bat is the kid's problem.

http://www.englishbeyhitting.com/vid...iasHoward1.gif

[Mark H]

http://www.gfklein.com/MLB/Bobby%20Bonilla.gif

http://www.gfklein.com/MLB/1o4zdt.gif

A couple more. I should right now offer thanks to all the clip creaters as I've used many more than I've created.

[BoardMember]

This is not the clip I wanted to ask permission to use. That was one of Jeff's which he graciously consented to. I'll get that one up tomorrow perhaps but this one was already linked. FFS, what would you say, looking strictly at the bat head position and angle at launch, of this swing compared to the young lefty's. My thought is, I don't think trapping the bat is the kid's problem.

http://www.englishbeyhitting.com/vid...iasHoward1.gif

I know this isn't my discussion Mark, but here's what I see.......

1.) The hands are WAY to far outside the core at launch.
2.) The swing arc radius is WAY to big.
3.) The bat head is casting WAY to early.
4.) He is "Dragging" the bat.

Putting it another way, there's a huge difference between short in back, long in the front (ala Howard), and LONG in the back, short in the front (ala the kid). Which is what I see here.........

[RayR]

I know this isn't my discussion Mark, but here's what I see.......

1.) The hands are WAY to far outside the core at launch.
2.) The swing arc radius is WAY to big.
3.) The bat head is casting WAY to early.
4.) He is "Dragging" the bat.

All true, but why?

I don't think merely changing the bat head launch position would dramatically alter this swing.

Learning how to use certain muscles would be a huge step in the right direction and would immediately improve his swing.

[BoardMember]

Of course your right. But using the right muscles won't correct the flawed launch position, which ARE the root of these problems.........

Start by moving the hands INSIDE the rear elbow (inside the core).....Ala Howard.......

Then, the muscles used with create a totally different pattern..........

Here's ONE example.

Moving the hands INSIDE the rear elbow will "suck" the bat head inward during launch creating a much tighter swing arc. Keeping the hands OUTSIDE the rear elbow THROWS the bat head outward into the arc prematurely............Causing a CAST..........and a much wider swing arc.........

Simply compare the two launches and see what I mean:



In the Howard clip, the swing arc is defined by the rear elbow. If you'll notice early, the rear elbow is (almost) as wide as the bat head. In the kids clip, the bat head is WAY further out then the rear elbow early in the sequence........One is DRAGGING........One is not.........

[RayR]

Of course your right. But using the right muscles won't correct the flawed launch position, which ARE the root of these problems.........

Start by moving the hands INSIDE the rear elbow (inside the core).....Ala Howard.......

Then, the muscles used with create a totally different pattern..........

Here's ONE example.

Moving the hands INSIDE the rear elbow will "suck" the bat head inward during launch creating a much tighter swing arc. Keeping the hands OUTSIDE the rear elbow THROWS the bat head outward into the arc prematurely............Causing a CAST..........and a much wider swing arc.........

Simply compare the two launches and see what I mean:

A proper load would move the hands into the right launch position using the same muscles that would unload the swing. This hitter does not load properly.

I agree with what you are saying.

[callyjr]

Simply compare the two launches and see what I mean:



In the Howard clip, the swing arc is defined by the rear elbow. If you'll notice early, the rear elbow is (almost) as wide as the bat head. In the kids clip, the bat head is WAY further out then the rear elbow early in the sequence........One is DRAGGING........One is not.........

Gosh BM I'm not sure I agree that its soley the back elbow, I think the front elbow is playing a role in this as well.

[BoardMember]

Gosh BM I'm not sure I agree that its soley the back elbow, I think the front elbow is playing a role in this as well.

CJ, IMO the lead arm is dragging the bat head.............Moving the hands inside the rear elbow will allow the front elbow to do its job.......

IMO of course.........

I also don't think the lead elbow can cause a widening of the arc at launch, or a cast..........Again, IMO.........

Feel free to disagree, and/or add your own insight..........

[BoardMember]

I feel compelled to ask. Who is/was this kid's hitting coach?

[Erik]

I feel compelled to ask. Who is/was this kid's hitting coach?

Chris Yeager works with this hitter. Thoughts?





EL

[BoardMember]

Chris Yeager works with this hitter. Thoughts?

EL

Really? I guess I'm not suprised given the amount of lead arm extension......

I see this swing as sub-optimal for all the reasons I pointed out.......

I am suprised that this swing was/is allowed to progress in this manor.....

I like the swing on the left a heck of a lot better.............



I wouldn't attempt to teach/sell the draggy ass swing on the right as an MLB pattern swing..........

[Erik]

Really? I guess I'm not suprised given the amount of lead arm extension......

I see this swing as sub-optimal for all the reasons I pointed out.......

I am suprised that this swing was/is allowed to progress in this manor.....

I like the swing on the left a heck of a lot better.............

BM,


as you know this is just 1 swing. This clip has been around and I would bet the swing is better now.





EL,

[BoardMember]

BM,
as you know this is just 1 swing. This clip has been around and I would bet the swing is better now.

EL,

I'm sure you're right. But you ask for my "thoughts"..........

[Mark H]

I know this isn't my discussion Mark, but here's what I see.......

1.) The hands are WAY to far outside the core at launch.
2.) The swing arc radius is WAY to big.
3.) The bat head is casting WAY to early.
4.) He is "Dragging" the bat.

Putting it another way, there's a huge difference between short in back, long in the front (ala Howard), and LONG in the back, short in the front (ala the kid). Which is what I see here.........

Feel free to jump in. I'll always stop and read your stuff but I see I've confused things. The lefty I was speaking of is the player for Chris he posted earlier. The player on the right of this clip I was ignoring.

[Mark H]

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