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Thread: Three Immortals In One City

  1. #1
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    Three Immortals In One City

    In the 1950s, three legends were present in one city: New York. All represented different teams. There was Mantle with the Yankees, Mays with the Giants, and Snider with "Dem Bums." These team were dominant in this time. They had a total 9* World Series triumphs, 17* appearances, and 7* match-ups between each other from 1947 (Duke's first year) to 1957 (Giants' last year in New York).

    Has any other city had such dominant teams and/or players that could match this?



    *Does not include every single game
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    In the 1950s, three legends were present in one city: New York. All represented different teams. There was Mantle with the Yankees, Mays with the Giants, and Snider with "Dem Bums." These team were dominant in this time. They had a total 9* World Series triumphs, 17* appearances, and 7* match-ups between each other from 1947 (Duke's first year) to 1957 (Giants' last year in New York).

    Has any other city had such dominant teams and/or players that could match this?
    First off, Snider was not an immortal and was probably not even the best player on his team. He was a great player on a great team and he happened to play the same position as the guys who were the best players on the Yankees and the Giants at that time.

  3. #3
    Not all great at the same time, but the '28 As had the greatest assortment of one-time all-time greats together:

    Cochrane (arguable #1 catcher at least for a time)
    Al Simmons
    Ty Cobb
    Jimmie Foxx
    Tris Speaker
    Eddie Collins
    Lefty Grove

    That would include arguable at the time:

    1) The greatest catcher
    2) The greatest player (at least Cobb was through '28)
    3) The greatest right handed batter
    4) The greatest centerfielder
    5) The greatest second baseman
    6) The greatest left handed pitcher, and a case for #1 all time.

  4. #4
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    Greg Maddox, John Smoltz and Tom Glavine.

    At least 2 1/2 surefire Hall of Famers.
    If I had only spent a tenth of the time studying Physics that I spent learning Star Wars and Baseball trivia, I would have won the Nobel Prize.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    Not all great at the same time, but the '28 As had the greatest assortment of one-time all-time greats together:

    Cochrane (arguable #1 catcher at least for a time)
    Al Simmons
    Ty Cobb
    Jimmie Foxx
    Tris Speaker
    Eddie Collins
    Lefty Grove

    That would include arguable at the time:

    1) The greatest catcher
    2) The greatest player (at least Cobb was through '28)
    3) The greatest right handed batter
    4) The greatest centerfielder
    5) The greatest second baseman
    6) The greatest left handed pitcher, and a case for #1 all time.
    The greatest RH hitter was Hornsby, especially at this time he was, and was probably better than Foxx even after Foxx was done.

    Oh, and the 28 A's finished 2 /12 games behind the Yankees. Would have been fun to have seen Cobb and Speaker get into a world series if they had won. Collins may not have been on the post season roster if they had won. He only played a few innings in the field all year, was mainly just a pinch hitter.
    Last edited by SavoyBG; 01-02-2009 at 07:45 PM.

  6. #6
    The Big Red Machine's Big Eight of 75-76 would qualify

    HOFers (or SHOULD be as well)
    Johnny Bench, greatest total package catcher ever
    Joe Morgan, one of the best 2Bs ever
    Tony Perez, best 1Bman of his day
    Pete Rose, ultimate compiler, but he would be in the Hall

    Outstanding performers of their day
    Dave Concepcion, gets HOF discussions, the Reds retired his number as well
    George Foster, 50 homers in a season, and a darn good Red
    Ken Griffey, nice solid career in the game
    Cesar Geronimo, well, not EVERY 8 (or 9 in the AL) can be an AS at every position.

    Also the 1993 Blue Jays would give that lineup a run for its money
    HOFers
    Rickey Henderson
    Paul Molitor
    Roberto Alomar

    Outstanding stars of their day
    Joe Carter
    John Olerud
    Devon White
    Tony Fernandez

    You may really start to see stuff like this more and more going forward from the 1990s.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveJRogers View Post
    The Big Red Machine's Big Eight of 75-76 would qualify

    HOFers (or SHOULD be as well)
    Johnny Bench, greatest total package catcher ever
    Joe Morgan, one of the best 2Bs ever
    Tony Perez, best 1Bman of his day
    Pete Rose, ultimate compiler, but he would be in the Hall

    Perez was never the best 1Bman of any day, but especially not in 75 or 76.

    Here are the win shares leaders at 1B for those years:

    1975
    Mayberry - 33
    Garvey - 25
    Scott - 23
    Thornton - 23
    Powell - 23
    Stargell - 22
    Watson - 20
    Yaz - 20
    Perez - 19

    1976
    Watson - 31
    Carew - 30
    Garvey - 26
    Hargrove - 24
    Tenace - 22
    Chambliss - 21
    May - 19
    Scott - 19
    Yaz - 18
    Stargell - 17
    Perez - 16

  8. #8
    Hmmm, so we really want to have an argument about you wanting John Mayberry and Bob Watson over Tony Perez?

    Yeah, good luck with that one.

    How many 100 RBI seasons?

    Let me put it this way, there is a prevailing thought that the Big Red Dynasty effectively ended when he was traded to Montreal following the 1976 season.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveJRogers View Post
    Hmmm, so we really want to have an argument about you wanting John Mayberry and Bob Watson over Tony Perez?

    Yeah, good luck with that one.

    How many 100 RBI seasons?

    Let me put it this way, there is a prevailing thought that the Big Red Dynasty effectively ended when he was traded to Montreal following the 1976 season.
    Look, if you think that 100 RBI seasons are the way to judge how good a player is I guess we don't have much to debate.

    Joe Carter (ten 100 RBI seasons) must be much better than Mickey Mantle (four 100 RBI seasons), right?

    There is no "prevailing thought" about anything. The dynsasty ended when the Reds team ERA went from 3.51 in 1976 to 4.21 in 1977. Unless Perez was gonna pitch in 1977, it had almost nothing to do with him leaving.

    Perez was NEVER the best 1Bman at any time in his career, and certainly not in 1975 or 1976.

  10. #10
    Anyway, that aside, the Giants of the 60s had a few legends on their roster;

    Juan Marichal, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Gaylord Perry and some guy named Mays.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Perez was NEVER the best 1Bman at any time in his career, and certainly not in 1975 or 1976.
    Really, then why is he often cited in many, many places as BEING the NL top 1B man of the 70s, and in some cases in the game? Why the hell did he get into the Hall if guys like Mayberry and Watson put up better Bill James stats?

    And of course I don't think 100 RBI seasons are any true measurement, but don't forget the era that Perez did it either.

    Look, no one is suggesting putting Perez in the same category with the likes of Lou Gehrig, I was simply saying that Perez WAS considered the top 1Bman of the game at the height of the Reds dynasty. The same way Don Mattingly EASILY is the best 1Bman in the game from 1984-1989, and I don't think Mattingly is Hall worthy!

    Put it this way, use the old fashioned EYES test. Ask someone who saw Perez, Watson and Mayberry play, and they'll all take Perez, easily.

  12. #12
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    NYC's dominance of MLB through the 50s is legendary.
    From 1949 through the beginning of the '57 Series they one every game.
    That is 47 consecutive World Series games was won by a NYC team.
    Who is going to match that?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    First off, Snider was not an immortal and was probably not even the best player on his team. He was a great player on a great team and he happened to play the same position as the guys who were the best players on the Yankees and the Giants at that time.
    This from a New York Giants fan: Not only did Snider hit more home runs than anyone in the 50's, but he was as good as Mickey in center and almost as good as Mays. He's a HOFer, and an immortal in every sense of he word.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Zig Tyko View Post
    This from a New York Giants fan: Not only did Snider hit more home runs than anyone in the 50's, but he was as good as Mickey in center and almost as good as Mays. He's a HOFer, and an immortal in every sense of he word.
    In that bandbox? Rey Ordonez, Kaz Matsui and Al Leiter would crack a decent 5 homers a year there!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveJRogers View Post
    Really, then why is he often cited in many, many places as BEING the NL top 1B man of the 70s, and in some cases in the game? Why the hell did he get into the Hall if guys like Mayberry and Watson put up better Bill James stats?

    And of course I don't think 100 RBI seasons are any true measurement, but don't forget the era that Perez did it either.

    Look, no one is suggesting putting Perez in the same category with the likes of Lou Gehrig, I was simply saying that Perez WAS considered the top 1Bman of the game at the height of the Reds dynasty. The same way Don Mattingly EASILY is the best 1Bman in the game from 1984-1989, and I don't think Mattingly is Hall worthy!

    Put it this way, use the old fashioned EYES test. Ask someone who saw Perez, Watson and Mayberry play, and they'll all take Perez, easily.
    He's in the hall of fame because the guys who vote are overly impressed with RBI totals like you are, and Perez has 1652 RBIs. Perez was not considered the top firstbaseman in the NL, or the game, in 1975 and 1976 when the Reds dynasty was it its peak. Steve Garvey started the all star game for the NL in each of those years. Perez barely slugged over .450 in those two seasons.

    I saw all the guys you ask about and in 1975 I would have taken Mayberry or Watson over Perez and certainly I would take Watson over Perez in 1976. Watson was a much better hitter than Perez at that time. Tony's best years were back in 1969 and 1970. If either of those guys were batting 4th or 5th on the Reds those two years they would have had a lot more than 109 RBIs in 1975 and 91 RBIs in 1976, with Rose, Griffey and Morgan on base as much as they were.

    And as for Mattingly, I saw almost every game he ever played and he was vastly overrated. It was preposterous when he won the 1985 MVP instead of Henderson.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Zig Tyko View Post
    This from a New York Giants fan: Not only did Snider hit more home runs than anyone in the 50's, but he was as good as Mickey in center and almost as good as Mays. He's a HOFer, and an immortal in every sense of he word.
    Immortals get elected to the hall of fame in their first year of eligibilty, not in eleven years like Snider needed to get elected.

    He was a great player, but not an immortal.

  17. #17
    Duke Snider couldn't hit left handed pitching (well, at least from 1954-64) and was also lucky enough to play in a park and with lineup that entailed him basically never having to face left handed pitching.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post

    Has any other city had such dominant teams and/or players that could match this?


    Rhetorical question... How many other cities had more than 2 teams?

    Proportionally, NCY should have had more players per TEAM, not more players per CITY.
    Last edited by dgarza; 01-03-2009 at 12:54 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Immortals get elected to the hall of fame in their first year of eligibilty, not in eleven years like Snider needed to get elected.

    He was a great player, but not an immortal.
    During the time he was an immortal.

    Anyway, that's not the point. Another team I can come up with is the 1909 Detroit Tigers. They may not have been dominant in today's standards, but in 1909 they were top 5 in almost every category and number one in several.

    Ty Cobb- won triple crown
    Sam Crawford- a great all-time player who did very well in 1909
    Donnie Bush- got on base a lot
    George Mullin- Dominant pitcher
    Ed Willett and Ed Summers- pitched very well for the Tigers
    Ralph Works and George Suggs- provided solid relief

    Every player worked together and conncected to lead the AL with a record of 98-54. They missed a World Series win by one game to the monsterous Pirates.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    Duke Snider couldn't hit left handed pitching (well, at least from 1954-64) and was also lucky enough to play in a park and with lineup that entailed him basically never having to face left handed pitching.

    I know that the huge right-field side of the colesium basically turned him into a platoon player and a guy who had hit 40 home runs 5 straight times into an over-the hill former star. He had 316 home runs through age 30. Without the extreme ballpark I think he had a good chance at 500 home runs, and might have been the NL leader for a while.


    I think his quick decline took him down a few notches with the voters.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveJRogers View Post
    Anyway, that aside, the Giants of the 60s had a few legends on their roster;

    Juan Marichal, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Gaylord Perry and some guy named Mays.
    Their primes don't overlap, but in a sort of dawn and dusk combination, you can include Reggie Jackson, Catfish, and Rollie Fingers of the late 1960's Oakland A's.
    Not all immortals, but that is a lot of big names in one place.
    Of course Cepeda is gone by then.

  22. #22
    Boston had both Spahn and Ted Williams at the same time. And Eddie Matthews is also there for 1952.

  23. #23
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    From 1918-1920 Chicago had Eddie Collins, Pete Alexander, and Joe Jackson.

  24. #24
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    1927 NYC:

    Rogers Hornsby
    Mel Ott
    Babe Ruth
    Lou Gehrig

    Not to mention the immortal John McGraw.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwiggins View Post
    1927 NYC:

    Rogers Hornsby
    Mel Ott
    Babe Ruth
    Lou Gehrig

    Not to mention the immortal John McGraw.
    Lazzeri, Meusel, Combs, Hoyt, and Pennock for the Yankees as well. Competing with Murderers' Row must not have been fun for a team located in the same city, even though the Giants didn't play them. The very propaganda would have been hard to fight.
    Last edited by Tyrus4189Cobb; 01-03-2009 at 08:49 AM.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

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