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  • Babe Adams, SP (1906-1907, 1909-1916, 1918-1926) - 4th Year

    2 7.14%
  • Chief Bender, SP (1903-1917, 1925) - 13th Year

    10 35.71%
  • George H. Burns, 1B (1914-1927) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • George J. Burns, LF (1911-1925) - 5th Year

    5 17.86%
  • Joe Bush, SP (1912-1928) - 2nd Year

    1 3.57%
  • Max Carey, CF (1910-1929) - 1st Year

    23 82.14%
  • Wilbur Cooper, SP (1912-1926) - 4th Year

    15 53.57%
  • Stan Coveleski, SP (1912, 1916-1928) - 2nd Year

    25 89.29%
  • Gavvy Cravath, RF (1908-1909, 1912-1920) - 10th Year

    6 21.43%
  • Bill Doak, SP (1912-1924, 1927-1929) - 1st Year

    1 3.57%
  • Johnny Evers, 2B (1902-1917, 1922, 1929) - 9th Year

    9 32.14%
  • Jack Fournier, 1B (1912-1918, 1920-1927) - 3rd Year

    2 7.14%
  • Larry Gardner, 3B (1908-1924) - 6th Year

    2 7.14%
  • Wally Gerber, SS (1914-1915, 1917-1929) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Hank Gowdy, C (1910-1917, 1919-1925, 1929-1930) - 1st Year

    2 7.14%
  • Heinie Groh, 3B (1912-1927) - 3rd Year

    17 60.71%
  • George Harper, RF (1916-1918, 1922-1929) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Harry Hooper, RF (1909-1925) - 5th Year

    6 21.43%
  • Baby Doll Jacobson, CF (1915, 1917, 1919-1927) - 3rd Year

    0 0%
  • Ed Konetchy, 1B (1907-1921) - 9th Year

    4 14.29%
  • Tommy Leach, 3B/CF (1898-1915, 1918) - 13th Year

    17 60.71%
  • Rube Marquard, SP (1908-1925) - 5th Year

    5 17.86%
  • Carl Mays, SP (1915-1929) - 1st Year

    14 50.00%
  • Lee Meadows, SP (1915-1929) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Johnny Mostil, CF (1918, 1921-1929) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Art Nehf, SP (1915-1929) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Del Pratt, 2B (1912-1924) - 6th Year

    4 14.29%
  • Ed Reulbach, SP (1905-1917) - 13th Year

    2 7.14%
  • Ray Schalk, C (1912-1929) - 1st Year

    7 25.00%
  • Bob Shawkey, SP (1913-1926) - 3rd Year

    2 7.14%
  • Urban Shocker, SP (1916-1928) - 2nd Year

    10 35.71%
  • Jack Smith, CF/OF (1915-1929) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Billy Southworth, RF (1913, 1915, 1918-1927, 1929) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Joe Tinker, SS (1902-1916) - 14th Year

    7 25.00%
  • Hippo Vaughn, SP (1908, 1910-1921) - 9th Year

    6 21.43%
  • Bobby Veach, LF (1912-1925) - 5th Year

    11 39.29%
  • Ken Williams, LF (1915-1929) - 1st Year

    2 7.14%
  • Ivey Wingo, C (1911-1926, 1929) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Joe Wood, SP (1908-1915, 1917, 1919-1920) - 8th Year

    3 10.71%
  • Ross Youngs, RF (1917-1926) - 4th Year

    3 10.71%
  • None of the Above (Blank Ballot)

    0 0%
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Thread: BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1934

  1. #51
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    Max Carey...

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    Why not? Since 2006(?) the Hall of Merit and the BaseBall-Fever Hall of Fame elected Groh; the BBFHOF elected Traynor too. They were not role-playing 1934. Do you think they must have misjudged?
    You're right, saying I wouldn't put them in is a bit too harsh. But they're both pretty borderline for me, from a 2009 perspective. I would probably put in about a dozen or 3B into my Hall if I was creating one today. Both those guys would be in the mix. I'd probably put in these guys for sure - Schmidt, Mathews, Brett, Boggs, Molitor, Baker, Santo, Chipper, Collins, and Robinson - and then probably Groh and Hack would also get in. Traynor, Evans, Bando, and K. Boyer would be just out the outside.
    Last edited by mwiggins; 01-09-2009 at 11:45 AM.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by mwiggins View Post
    I'd probably put in these guys for sure - Schmidt, Mathews, Brett, Boggs, Molitor, Baker, Santo, Chipper, Collins, and Robinson - and then probably Groh and Hack would also get in. Traynor, Evans, Bando, and K. Boyer would be just out the outside.
    Not familar with most of those names. Are they Negro Leaguers, or perhaps early players from before the Association started?

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Doing a little more research, the problem with 3B may be even simpler than I thought. Using a database, I figured out how many folks had at least 7000 PA from 1876-1935 (the database doesn't include info before 1876). There were 92 such players.
    I just did a similar exercise but using 6000 PA as my cutoff in the hopes of capturing a few more 19th Century players, and I also stopped at players who retired in 1934 (given that's the current election year). There are 137 such players. For general consumption, here are all the players ordered by position in descending OPS+ order (I apologize if I missed any one). I have listed some players at multiple positions. Players in italics have been elected our Hall of Fame:

    Catcher (5)
    King Kelly - 138 OPS+ (6455 PA) - Also Listed at RF
    Deacon White - 127 OPS+ (6972 PA)
    - Also Listed at 3B
    Deacon McGuire - 101 OPS+ (6932 PA)
    Duke Farrell - 99 OPS+ (6254 PA)
    Ray Schalk - 83 OPS+ (6217 PA)

    Of this list, only McGuire, Farrell, and Schalk can definitively be called catchers. I knew catchers had poor longevity, but I didn't realize just how rare 6000 PA has been for a catcher. Notice that the other two primary catchers we've elected, Bresnahan and Bennett aren't even on the list. I'm going to seriously reconsider McGuire and Farrell at the next VC election and give Schalk some extra thought as well.

    First Base (25)
    Dan Brouthers - 170 OPS+ (7658 PA)
    Roger Connor - 153 OPS+ (8837 PA)

    Harry Stovey - 143 OPS+ (6832 PA) - Also listed at LF
    Jack Fournier - 142 OPS+ (6033 PA)
    Cap Anson - 141 OPS+ (11319 PA)
    Jake Beckley - 125 OPS+ (10470 PA)

    George Sisler - 124 OPS+ (9013 PA)
    Ed Konetchy - 122 OPS+ (8664 PA)
    Harry Davis - 119 OPS+ (7379 PA)
    Jake Daubert - 117 OPS+ (8742 PA)
    Dan McGann - 117 OPS+ (6047 PA)
    Joe Judge - 114 OPS+ (9171 PA)
    John Anderson - 114 OPS+ (6768) - Also Listed at LF
    George H. Burns - 113 OPS+ (7233 PA)
    Hal Chase - 112 OPS+ (7939 PA)
    Fred Tenney - 109 OPS+ (8807 PA)
    Lu Blue - 109 OPS+ (7207 PA)
    George Kelly - 109 OPS+ (6565 PA)
    Fred Merkle - 109 OPS+ (6426 PA)
    Stuffy McInnis - 105 OPS+ (8623 PA)
    Jack Doyle - 105 OPS+ (6566 PA)
    Wally Pipp - 104 OPS+ (7820 PA)
    Tommy Tucker - 102 OPS+ (7266 PA)
    Dots Miller - 95 OPS+ (6476 PA) - Also Listed at 2B
    Charlie Comiskey - 82 OPS+ (6035 PA)

    This actually makes me feel a lot better about Jake Beckley's election. After the big three (Anson, Brouthers, and Connor) and Stovey who was really more of an OFer, Beckley seems to stand out both in level of production and longevity. I think this also demonstrates that other than the 1880s when the big three were at it, 1B has not been the offensive-heavy position that it started to become in the 1920s and 1930s.

    Second Base (25)
    Napoleon Lajoie - 150 OPS+ (10460 PA)
    Eddie Collins - 141 OPS+ (12037 PA)
    Hardy Richardson - 130 OPS+ (6029 PA) - Also Listed at LF
    Larry Doyle - 126 OPS+ (7382 PA)
    Cupid Childs - 119 OPS+ (6758 PA)

    Jimmy Williams - 115 OPS+ (6112 PA)
    Del Pratt - 112 OPS+ (7609 PA)
    Miller Huggins - 107 OPS+ (6800 PA)
    Tom Daly - 107 OPS+ (6483 PA)
    Bid McPhee - 106 OPS+ (9409 PA)
    Johnny Evers - 106 OPS+ (7210 PA)
    Marty McManus - 102 OPS+ (7563 PA) - Also listed at 3B
    Claude Ritchey - 101 OPS+ (6822 PA)
    Dots Miller - 95 OPS+ (6476 PA) - Also Listed at 1B
    Buck Herzog - 96 OPS+ (6047 PA) - Also Listed at 3B and SS
    John Ward - 92 OPS+ (8084 PA) - Also Listed at SS
    Fred Pfeffer - 92 OPS+ (7108 PA)
    George Cutshaw - 87 OPS+ (6213 PA)
    Bobby Lowe - 86 OPS+ (7741 PA)
    Bill Hallman - 84 OPS+ (6596 PA)
    Sparky Adams - 83 OPS+ (6174 PA) - Also Listed at 3B
    Lou Bierbauer - 83 OPS+ (6007 PA)
    Kid Gleason - 78 OPS+ (8198 PA)
    Bill Wambsganss - 78 OPS+ (6097 PA)
    Joe Quinn - 76 OPS+ (6879 PA)

    So 2B is on par with 1B in terms of frequency of longevity. In respect to Del Pratt, who is currently on the ballot, I think this shows that he's about where I thought he was, around the border.

    Third Base (21)
    Frank Baker - 135 OPS+ (6660 PA)
    Deacon White - 127 OPS+ (6972 PA) - Also Listed at 3B

    Heinie Groh - 118 OPS+ (7035 PA)
    Jimmy Collins - 113 OPS+ (7452 PA)
    Tommy Leach - 109 OPS+ (9051 PA)
    Joe Sewell - 109 OPS+ (8329 PA) - Also Listed at SS
    Larry Gardner - 109 OPS+ (7685 PA)
    Bill Bradley - 108 OPS+ (6046 PA)
    Billy Nash - 104 OPS+ (6719 PA)
    Marty McManus - 102 OPS+ (7563 PA) - Also Listed at 2B
    Harry Steinfeldt - 102 OPS+ (6694 PA)
    Lave Cross - 100 OPS+ (9710 PA)
    Milt Stock - 98 OPS+ (6951 PA)
    Buck Herzog - 96 OPS+ (6047 PA) - Also Listed at 2B and SS
    Arlie Latham - 92 OPS+ (7502 PA)
    Jimmy Austin - 90 OPS+ (6302 PA)
    Terry Turner - 89 OPS+ (6658 PA)
    Eddie Foster - 89 OPS+ (6317 PA)
    Billy Shindle - 88 OPS+ (6326 PA)
    Sparky Adams - 83 OPS+ (6174 OPS+) - Also Listed at 2B
    Howie Shanks - 82 OPS+ (6414 OPS+) - Also Listed at LF

    I think this shows that a combination of longevity and above-average offensive production has been pretty rare at 3B and that perhaps we do need to reassess our expectations here. I think this also helps the cases for Groh, Leach, and Gardner. Not counting White, who played a lot at catcher, Groh looks to be the second best hitting 3Bmen we've seen (given decent longevity), and as others have commented earlier, he was no slouch defensively. Leach and Gardner, at just 109 OPS+, are tied for the fourth highest OPS+ (not counting White and tied with Sewell who really is a SS). Leach also has 1500-3000 more PA than anyone on the list except Lave Cross, though Leach could also be termed a CF (and I believe his defensive mastery of two important defensive positions is to his credit). I think when a 109 OPS+ is tied for the 4th (or 5th if counting White) highest over a 60+ year period among players with decent longevity, it demonstrates that perhaps 3B should be considered more of a defensive position during the time we're looking at. Even 2B has more players with a higher OPS+ and the requisite longevity, with 7 players above 109.

    Shortstop (23)
    Honus Wagner - 150 OPS+ (11739 PA)
    George Davis - 121 OPS+ (10151 PA)

    Ed McKean - 114 OPS+ (7610 PA)
    Jack Glasscock - 112 OPS+ (7535 PA)
    Bill Dahlen - 109 OPS+ (10390 PA)

    Joe Sewell - 109 OPS+ (8329 PA) - Also Listed at 3B
    Bobby Wallace - 105 OPS+ (9612 PA)
    Art Fletcher - 105 OPS+ (6039 PA)
    Dave Bancroft - 98 OPS+ (8244 PA)
    Buck Herzog - 96 OPS+ (6047 PA)
    Joe Tinker - 95 OPS+ (7145 PA)
    Herman Long - 94 OPS+ (8493 PA)
    John Ward - 92 OPS+ (8084 PA) - Also Listed at 2B

    Donie Bush - 91 OPS+ (8374 PA)
    Terry Turner - 89 OPS+ (6658 PA)
    Roger Peckinpaugh - 87 OPS+ (8383 PA)
    Monte Cross - 80 OPS+ (6711 PA)
    Germany Smith - 75 OPS+ (6995 PA)
    Tommy Corcoran - 74 OPS+ (9368 PA)
    Ivy Olson - 74 OPS+ (6630 PA)
    Mickey Doolan - 72 OPS+ (6598 PA)
    Everett Scott - 65 OPS+ (6373 PA)
    George McBride - 65 OPS+ (6235 PA)

    I don't think there are many surprises here, though frequency of longevity is almost on par with 1B (and 2B). I also think this supports the argument I made earlier that Dave Bancroft, while perhaps not so impressive in a greater historical context, may have stood out more in his time than some better shortstops from earlier generations. I also think we were too quick to dismiss Ed McKean, though his defense is certainly a concern.

    Corner OF (33)
    Ed Delahanty - 152 OPS+ (8389 PA)
    Elmer Flick - 149 OPS+ (6414 PA)
    Sam Thompson - 146 OPS+ (6502 PA)
    Sam Crawford - 144 OPS+ (6502 PA)
    Harry Stovey - 143 OPS+ (6832 PA) - Also Listed at 1B
    Billy Hamilton - 141 OPS+ (6268 PA) - Also Listed at CF
    Jesse Burkett - 140 OPS+ (9605 PA)
    King Kelly - 138 OPS+ (6455 PA) - Also Listed at C

    Mike Tiernan - 137 OPS+ (6716 PA)
    Sherry Magee - 136 OPS+ (8546 PA)
    Jim O'Rourke - 133 OPS+ (9051 PA)
    Joe Kelley - 133 OPS+ (8120 PA)
    Fred Clarke - 132 OPS+ (9819 PA)
    Hardy Richardson - 130 OPS+ (6029 PA) - Also Listed at 2B
    Zack Wheat - 129 OPS+ (9996 PA)

    Bobby Veach - 127 OPS+ (7557 PA)
    Willie Keller - 126 OPS+ (9594 PA)
    Jimmy Ryan - 123 OPS+ (9106 PA) - Also Listed at CF
    Hugh Duffy - 122 OPS+ (7827 PA) - Also Listed at CF

    Kip Selbach - 121 OPS+ (7089 PA)
    Jimmy Sheckard - 120 OPS+ (9118 PA)
    Bob Meusel - 118 OPS+ (6028 PA)
    Harry Hooper - 114 OPS+ (10244 PA)
    George J. Burns - 114 OPS+ (8251 PA)
    Frank Schulte - 114 OPS+ (7413 PA)
    John Anderson - 114 OPS+ (6768 PA)
    Sam Rice - 112 OPS+ (10246 PA)
    Jack Tobin - 109 OPS+ (6782 PA)
    Duffy Lewis - 108 OPS+ (6007 PA)
    Charlie Jamieson - 101 OPS+ (7488 PA)
    Patsy Donovan - 97 OPS+ (8133 PA)
    Shano Collins - 90 OPS+ (7036 PA)
    Howie Shanks - 82 OPS+ (6414 PA) - Also Listed at 3B

    Since a lot of these guys spent time bouncing around the OF, I thought I'd just group them together as corner OFers. Looking at this, it's not that surprising to me that we've elected a number of players here. There are a lot of players grouped very closely together that makes it difficult to distinguish and create a clear cutoff. Bobby Veach looks to be the line here, but I don't think he's that far removed, if at all from our standards, though he would definitely be near the bottom. Mike Tiernan stands out though. He's the only player among the first 15 players that we haven't elected, and with Bobby Veach, one of only two among the first 19. So Tiernan would appear to be well within our standards, especially when you factor in his baserunning. He might be in line for some extra consideration from the VC.

    Center Field (23)
    Ty Cobb - 167 OPS+ (13072 PA)
    Tris Speaker - 158 OPS+ (11988 PA)
    Billy Hamilton - 141 OPS+ (6268 PA) - Also Listed at LF
    George Gore - 135 OPS+ (6104 PA)
    Paul Hines - 131 OPS+ (7470 PA)

    Edd Roush - 126 OPS+ (8156 PA)
    Cy Williams - 125 OPS+ (7720 PA)
    Jimmy Ryan - 123 OPS+ (9106 PA) - Also Listed at RF
    Mike Griffin - 123 OPS+ (6832 PA)
    Roy Thomas - 123 OPS+ (6575 PA)
    Ginger Beaumont - 123 OPS+ (6281 PA)
    Hugh Duffy - 122 OPS+ (7827 PA) - Also Listed at corner OF
    George Van Haltren - 121 OPS+ (8979 PA)

    Cy Seymour - 119 OPS+ (6204 PA)
    Fielder Jones - 111 OPS+ (7894 PA)
    Baby Doll Jacobson - 111 OPS+ (6072 PA)
    Dummy Hoy - 110 OPS+ (8369 PA)
    Tommy Leach - 109 OPS+ (9051 PA)
    Clyde Milan - 109 OPS+ (8312 PA)
    Dode Paskert - 108 OPS+ (6997 PA)
    Max Carey - 107 OPS+ (10770 PA)
    Steve Brodie - 102 OPS+ (6314 PA)
    Tom Brown - 100 OPS+ (8182 PA)

    Looking at this, I can see why it could be argued that Ryan, Duffy, and Van Haltren have noticeably lowered our standards. It isn't like the corner OF positions where there are lots of players grouped together at a higher level. Here, Ryan, Duffy, and Van Haltren all appear to be a noticeable tick below the other inductees. However, I still strongly believe that once Duffy and Van Haltren were elected, we could not leave Ryan out. In respect to Tommy Leach, his offense doesn't stand out as much here as it does at 3B. But he played roughly 1000 games at each position and I do think it's very much to his credit that he played excellent defense at both (giving him extra value in terms of the team's flexibility), that he had good longevity, and that he was a very good hitter by 3B standards, and a pretty decent hitter by CF standards.
    Last edited by DoubleX; 01-09-2009 at 01:06 PM.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    I just did a similar exercise but using 6000 PA as my cutoff in the hopes of capturing a few more 19th Century players, and I also stopped at players who retired in 1934 (given that's the current election year). There are 137 such players. For general consumption, here are all the players ordered by position in descending OPS+ order (I apologize if I missed any one). I have listed some players at multiple positions. Players in italics have been elected our Hall of Fame:


    Third Base (21)
    Frank Baker - 135 OPS+ (6660 PA)
    Deacon White - 127 OPS+ (6972 PA) - Also Listed at 3B

    Heinie Groh - 118 OPS+ (7035 PA)
    Jimmy Collins - 113 OPS+ (7452 PA)
    Tommy Leach - 109 OPS+ (9051 PA)
    Joe Sewell - 109 OPS+ (8329 PA) - Also Listed at SS
    Larry Gardner - 109 OPS+ (7685 PA)
    Bill Bradley - 108 OPS+ (6046 PA)
    Billy Nash - 104 OPS+ (6719 PA)
    Marty McManus - 102 OPS+ (7563 PA) - Also Listed at 2B
    Harry Steinfeldt - 102 OPS+ (6694 PA)
    Lave Cross - 100 OPS+ (9710 PA)
    Milt Stock - 98 OPS+ (6951 PA)
    Buck Herzog - 96 OPS+ (6047 PA) - Also Listed at 2B and SS
    Arlie Latham - 92 OPS+ (7502 PA)
    Jimmy Austin - 90 OPS+ (6302 PA)
    Terry Turner - 89 OPS+ (6658 PA)
    Eddie Foster - 89 OPS+ (6317 PA)
    Billy Shindle - 88 OPS+ (6326 PA)
    Sparky Adams - 83 OPS+ (6174 OPS+) - Also Listed at 2B
    Howie Shanks - 82 OPS+ (6414 OPS+) - Also Listed at LF

    I think this shows that a combination of longevity and above-average offensive production has been pretty rare at 3B and that perhaps we do need to reassess our expectations here.

    It could very well just mean that just coincidentally, there only happened to be 4 or 5 thirdbasemen who were of hall of fame quality playing between the 1870s and the 1920s. I don't see why that's such a problem. It's not like we have 17 hall of famers at each of the other positions. Right now we only have 5 catchers and 5 RFers. Groh will likely get in eventually. That will make four 3Bmen. If Deacon White were moved to 3B you could end up with five 3Bmen and only four catchers. Sewell will likely go in, but mainly as a SS. One of the positions has to coincidentally end up with the fewest hall of famers, and it just happens to be 3B right now, but the position does not have so many fewer inductess that we should be wondering about it.

    I think we are building a good case for Groh and will get him in soon. There's also the arbitrary figure of 6,000 plate appearances. Given how short the seasons were in the 19th century, you don't see as many players from then who have the kind of totals of plate appearances as recent electees like Speaker and Cobb. If you drop the total to 4000 plate appearances you get the following great offensive 3Bmen:

    Joyce - 144 OPS+
    Lyons - 138 OPS+
    McGraw - 135 OPS+

    I don't think there's any cause for alarm here, and if groh gets in soon maybe we can drop the worry over 3Bmen.
    Last edited by SavoyBG; 01-09-2009 at 02:31 PM.

  6. #56
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    Chief Bender
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    Hey, this is my public apology for suddenly disappearing and missing out on any projects I may have neglected.

  7. #57
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  8. #58
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    I can see reassessing our expectations of offensive production at 3B for the early guys, as the position did seem to emphasize defense more before the lively ball. I don't see why 3B would be so dramatically affected in terms of longevity, though. Catcher, I certainly understand--even in 2009, they don't last as long as other position players, and back then, they had less sophisticated medicine and gear that provided a good deal less protection. If someone can provide some real explanation as to why that should happen, I'll certainly listen, but until I'm convinced there's a reason inherent in the demands of the position, I'm not apt to compromise much on that score. Now, I don't look at 7000 PA as a cutoff in the strictest sense, as a guy with offense like Frank Baker's can certainly overcome his fairly small shortfall in PA--but it is something that requires making up some ground. The bigger question to me is what level of offense should set the same kind of standard for early 3B?
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    Catcher (5)
    King Kelly - 138 OPS+ (6455 PA) - Also Listed at RF
    Deacon White - 127 OPS+ (6972 PA)
    - Also Listed at 3B
    Deacon McGuire - 101 OPS+ (6932 PA)
    Duke Farrell - 99 OPS+ (6254 PA)
    Ray Schalk - 83 OPS+ (6217 PA)

    Of this list, only McGuire, Farrell, and Schalk can definitively be called catchers. I knew catchers had poor longevity, but I didn't realize just how rare 6000 PA has been for a catcher. Notice that the other two primary catchers we've elected, Bresnahan and Bennett aren't even on the list.
    (my emphases)

    Mike,

    I hope you aren't going to revive this old canard.
    We can "definitively" call Deacon White a catcher.
    We should call him a "primary catcher". He was 34.4 years old when he became a regular 3B spring 1882, with ten games at thirdbase on his resume. White isn't a difficult case like Jim O'Rourke, lacking any regular position when he was in his prime (before he settled finally in leftfield at age 37.7). White was his team's regular catcher in ten of his first eleven professional seasons, 1869-76 and 78-79, spanning ages 21 to 31 except 29.

    It's the Same Old Song, over and over, counts of major league "games" or "at bats" or "plate appearances" naively presented as descriptive measures of careers. (not only by Mike)

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    (my emphases)

    Mike,

    I hope you aren't going to revive this old canard.
    We can "definitively" call Deacon White a catcher.
    We should call him a "primary catcher". He was 34.4 years old when he became a regular 3B spring 1882, with ten games at thirdbase on his resume. White isn't a difficult case like Jim O'Rourke, lacking any regular position when he was in his prime (before he settled finally in leftfield at age 37.7). White was his team's regular catcher in ten of his first eleven professional seasons, 1869-76 and 78-79, spanning ages 21 to 31 except 29.

    It's the Same Old Song, over and over, counts of major league "games" or "at bats" or "plate appearances" naively presented as descriptive measures of careers. (not only by Mike)
    Paul, I'm not going to change White's listing. I still believe his primary position is C, but there is enough to say that he isn't a catcher in the same sense that someone like Charlie Bennett was.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    Paul, I'm not going to change White's listing. I still believe his primary position is C, but there is enough to say that he isn't a catcher in the same sense that someone like Charlie Bennett was.
    Leaving White as a catcher is fine, but just realize that it is a big reason why 3B seems so underrepresented.

    That, and just the coinicidence that three great hiting 3Bmen of the 19th century had very short careers, and other great players who played some 3B ended up playing more at other spots.

    I can't wait to get Groh in now so we can get past the 3B discussions.

  12. #62
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    --White had a pretty full career as a superstar catcher. that was followed by a second career as an okay thirdbaseman. Had he played third instead of catcher in the 1870s he would have been the best 3B of the 18th century - and possibly of all time. He didn't though and is claim to greatness is almost entirely based on his play as a catcher.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --White had a pretty full career as a superstar catcher. that was followed by a second career as an okay thirdbaseman. Had he played third instead of catcher in the 1870s he would have been the best 3B of the 18th century - and possibly of all time. He didn't though and is claim to greatness is almost entirely based on his play as a catcher.

    I didn't know there was base ball already in the 18th century.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    I didn't know there was base ball already in the 18th century.
    I think they were calling it rounders back then. :

  15. #65
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  16. #66
    Bumping up.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    Bumping up.

    What does "bumping up" mean?

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    What does "bumping up" mean?
    Posting to keep the thread at the top of the queue.
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  19. #69
    Here's who I have eligible for next year:

    Pete Alexander
    Dave Bancroft
    Hal Carlson - May not be on ballot
    Eddie Collins
    Hank DeBerry - Likely won't be on ballot
    Howard Ehmke
    Ira Flagstead
    Patsy Gharrity - Likely won't be on ballot
    Sammy Hale - Likely won't be on ballot
    Bubbles Hargrave
    Carmen Hill - Likely won't be on ballot
    Bob Meusel
    Johnny Morrison - May not be on ballot
    George Sisler
    Earl Smith - May not be on ballot
    Homer Summa - Likely won't be on ballot
    Curt Walker
    Cy Williams

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    Here's who I have eligible for next year:

    Pete Alexander
    Dave Bancroft
    Eddie Collins
    Howard Ehmke
    Ira Flagstead
    Bubbles Hargrave
    Bob Meusel
    George Sisler
    Curt Walker
    Cy Williams
    Some good new arrivals, although they could stall the chances of some guys who were close this year, like Groh.

    Definites - Alexander, Collins
    Probables - Sisler
    possibiles - Bancroft, Williams

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    Here's who I have eligible for next year:

    Pete Alexander
    Dave Bancroft
    Hal Carlson - May not be on ballot
    Eddie Collins
    Hank DeBerry - Likely won't be on ballot
    Howard Ehmke
    Ira Flagstead
    Patsy Gharrity - Likely won't be on ballot
    Sammy Hale - Likely won't be on ballot
    Bubbles Hargrave
    Carmen Hill - Likely won't be on ballot
    Bob Meusel
    Johnny Morrison - May not be on ballot
    George Sisler
    Earl Smith - May not be on ballot
    Homer Summa - Likely won't be on ballot
    Curt Walker
    Cy Williams
    Of your cut list, Hal Carlson was a good pitcher who was the victim of poor run support. He deserves his 1 and done honors. Sammy Hale was a scrappy 3rd baseman who had excellent range, but also committed a lot of errors. He was a B at 3B in defensive win shares and was an effective hitter. He's very borderline for inclusion, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Of course, it's highly improbably that either one will receive even a token vote.

    The rest of the maybes or probably not's I'd cut, giving us this for the very interesting looking class of 1935 candidates:

    Pete Alexander
    Dave Bancroft
    Hal Carlson
    Eddie Collins
    Howard Ehmke
    Ira Flagstead
    Sammy Hale
    Bubbles Hargrave
    Carmen Hill
    Bob Meusel
    Johnny Morrison
    George Sisler
    Curt Walker
    Cy Williams

    Pete Alexander and Eddie Collins are 1st ballot shoe ins. Dave Bancroft, Bob Meusel, George Sisler and Cy Williams also will probably have their share of supporters and might benefit from some discussion about their cases. Now that Babe Ruth has turned baseball upside down with his home runs, will Cy Williams get any extra attention? What do the folks here think of this new emphasis on power and home runs? It's looking like the Babe will no longer be a Yankee when the '35 season rolls in. He's getting old and looks overweight and clumsy. Does he have anything left in the tank?
    Last edited by jjpm74; 01-14-2009 at 03:21 PM.

  22. #72
    I'd be pretty surprised if Sisler didn't make it. He was held in very high regard at this point in time, and really for decades after.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    I'd be pretty surprised if Sisler didn't make it. He was held in very high regard at this point in time, and really for decades after.
    Up until Gehrig burst on to the scene, has there been a better first basemen this century?

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    I'd be pretty surprised if Sisler didn't make it. He was held in very high regard at this point in time, and really for decades after.
    Didn't Jake Beckley almost not get elected? Isnt George Sisler a similar 1st baseman.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambambaseball View Post
    Didn't Jake Beckley almost not get elected? Isnt George Sisler a similar 1st baseman.
    Sisler was significantly better than Beckley pre-injury/illness. And even taking Sisler's career numbers at face value, and ignoring their peak seasons, he looks to have a better case than Beckley.

    Beckley - 10,470 PA's, .635 OWP, 125 OPS+, Black Ink (1), Grey Ink (165)
    Sisler - 9013 PA's, .672 OWP, 124 OPS+, Black Ink (29), Grey Ink (198)
    Last edited by mwiggins; 01-14-2009 at 05:27 PM.

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