View Poll Results: PLEASE READ RULES, LIMIT TO 15 VOTES, AND POST BALLOT IN THREAD

Voters
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  • Babe Adams, SP (1906-1907, 1909-1916, 1918-1926) - 5th Year

    1 3.03%
  • Pete Alexander, SP (1911-1930) - 1st Year

    31 93.94%
  • Dave Bancroft, SS (1915-1930) - 1st Year

    9 27.27%
  • Chief Bender, SP (1903-1917, 1925) - 14th Year

    12 36.36%
  • George J. Burns, LF (1911-1925) - 6th Year

    3 9.09%
  • Hal Carlson, SP (1917-1930) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Eddie Collins, 2B (1906-1930) - 1st Year

    32 96.97%
  • Wilbur Cooper, SP (1912-1926) - 5th Year

    11 33.33%
  • Gavvy Cravath, RF (1908-1909, 1912-1920) - 11th Year

    6 18.18%
  • Bill Doak, SP (1912-1924, 1927-1929) - 2nd Year

    0 0%
  • Howard Ehmke, CF (1915-1917, 1919-1930) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Johnny Evers, 2B (1902-1917, 1922, 1929) - 10th Year

    7 21.21%
  • Ira Flagstead, CF (1917, 1919-1930) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Jack Fournier, 1B (1912-1918, 1920-1927) - 4th Year

    1 3.03%
  • Larry Gardner, 3B (1908-1924) - 7th Year

    3 9.09%
  • Hank Gowdy, C (1910-1917, 1919-1925, 1929-1930) - 2nd Year

    0 0%
  • Heinie Groh, 3B (1912-1927) - 4th Year

    22 66.67%
  • Bubbles Hargrave, C (1913-1915, 1921-1928, 1930) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Harry Hooper, RF (1909-1925) - 6th Year

    7 21.21%
  • Ed Konetchy, 1B (1907-1921) - 10th Year

    3 9.09%
  • Tommy Leach, 3B/CF (1898-1915, 1918) - 14th Year

    19 57.58%
  • Rube Marquard, SP (1908-1925) - 6th Year

    4 12.12%
  • Carl Mays, SP (1915-1929) - 2nd Year

    15 45.45%
  • Bob Meusel, LF/RF (1920-1930) - 1st Year

    3 9.09%
  • Del Pratt, 2B (1912-1924) - 7th Year

    4 12.12%
  • Ed Reulbach, SP (1905-1917) - 14th Year

    2 6.06%
  • Ray Schalk, C (1912-1929) - 2nd Year

    6 18.18%
  • Bob Shawkey, SP (1913-1926) - 4th Year

    1 3.03%
  • Urban Shocker, SP (1916-1928) - 3rd Year

    8 24.24%
  • George Sisler, 1B (1915-1922, 1924-1930) - 1st Year

    30 90.91%
  • Joe Tinker, SS (1902-1916) - 15th Year

    7 21.21%
  • Hippo Vaughn, SP (1908, 1910-1921) - 10th Year

    5 15.15%
  • Bobby Veach, LF (1912-1925) - 6th Year

    9 27.27%
  • Curt Walker, RF (1919-1930) - 1st Year

    0 0%
  • Cy Williams, CF (1912-1930) - 1st Year

    5 15.15%
  • Ken Williams, LF (1915-1929) - 2nd Year

    1 3.03%
  • Joe Wood, SP (1908-1915, 1917, 1919-1920) - 9th Year

    5 15.15%
  • Ross Youngs, RF (1917-1926) - 5th Year

    4 12.12%
  • None of the Above (Blank Ballot)

    0 0%
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Results 41 to 60 of 79

Thread: BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1935

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Just curious why you'd pick those three and not Eddie Collins and Pete Alexander? You have the space for them and neither one had any character issues or any other reason I can see to justify a non-vote.
    I goofed on Collins. He should have had my vote. I voted for Carl Mays as well. Aside for the gaudy win total, Alexander looked more like a collector of stats, like Sutton and John as supposed to Mathewson and Johnson who owned the time period. He'll get in without my vote, but I clicked on submit a couple seconds too quick.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtbub View Post
    Aside for the gaudy win total, Alexander looked more like a collector of stats, like Sutton and John as supposed to Mathewson and Johnson who owned the time period. He'll get in without my vote, but I clicked on submit a couple seconds too quick.

    Alexander came pretty much after Matty (Pete started in 1911, Matty was done by 1915), and Johnson was in the other league. He did compile a lot of stats, but he was also very dominant. Led the NL in shutouts 7 times; in complete games 6 times; in ERA+ 4 times; in ERA 4 times; in K's 6 times; in K/BB 3 times; in wins 6 times, in WHIP 5 times; and in innings 7 times.

    And he won the Triple Crown 3 times. He was a side-armer with great control, an excellent hard sinker, and very good curve that was almost more of a slider in movement.
    Last edited by mwiggins; 01-16-2009 at 05:16 PM.

  3. #43
    P. Alexander
    D. Bancroft
    E. Collins
    H. Groh
    T. Leach
    C. Mays
    G. Sisler
    C. Williams
    "(Van) Mungo and I get along fine. I just tell him I won't stand for no nonsense, and then I duck."
    Casey Stengel

  4. #44

    1910-1914 debuts, career win shares

    Here is another approach to player cohorts, also using the win shares measure. The cohorts are defined by their major league debuts in five-year "half decades" and the leading playes are identified by career win shares (not fixed-timespan win shares).

    We have considered many of these players for the hall of fame and the rest of them will come our way soon. The Babe seems to be done and he is the last of them on the field, I believe.
    --

    During the five seasons 1910-1914 there were 1013 major league debuts, a very high number thanks to the Federal League demand for players. Babe Ruth leads by career win shares with 756 followed by Alexander 476 and Heilmann 356. Here is one all-America team defined by career data, win shares and fielding games.

    cWS All-America Team, debuts 1910-1914 (career win shares)
    P: Alexander (476), Rixey (315), Faber, Cooper, Jones, Coveleski, Luque, Pennock (240)
    C: Schang (245), Schalk (191), O'Neill (152)
    1B: Daubert (263), Fournier (231)
    2B: Pratt (242), George Cutshaw (140)
    SS: Maranville (302), Peckinpaugh (239)
    3B: Groh (272), Milt Stock (188)
    LF: Burns (290), Veach (265)
    CF: Carey (351), Roush (314), Cy Williams (235)
    RF: Ruth (756), Heilmann (356)

    The next outfielder is down at 180!, shortstop 152!, firstbaseman 203, pitcher 223. So the appearance of surplus at some fielding positions is an illusion for this five-year period. Even at pitcher, there are only three extra man with more than 178 cws.

    Here are all other players with 180 cws: Bob Shawkey p, Hooks Dauss p, Wally Pipp 1b, GT Burns 1b (200), Joe Bush p, Duffy Lewis lf.

    Maranville, Groh, and Stock played more than 3.0, 2.0, and 1.5 full seasons equivalent at secondbase. Buck Weaver is the next shortstop at 152 and he played almost three seasons at thirdbase. Eddie Foster is the next thirdbaseman at 171 and he played almost two seasons at secondbase. A real win shares team might "cut Cutshaw" and cover secondbase or Cutshaw and Stock in favor of Weaver and/or Foster.

    Now construct two 16-man traveling teams comprising these 32 players.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 01-16-2009 at 08:30 PM.

  5. #45

    1905-1909 debuts, career win shares (no names!)

    During the five seasons 1905-1909 there were 608 major league debuts. Here are the numbers of career win shares for the leaders by fielding position. This covers 28 players with 180 cws.

    debut 1905-1909, career win shares
    P: 560, 287, 247, 243, 208, 206, 205, 193#, 189
    C:
    1B: 287, 231, 227, 191
    2B: 574, 289
    SS: 232, 218
    3B: 301, 258*, 214*
    LF: 380, 294
    CF: 722, 630, 266, 227
    RF: 321, 202

    Joe Wood(#) played almost three full seasons outfield games, double his number of pitcher games. Otherwise, except players at two outfield positions, merely one of these men played barely two full seasons at a second fielding positoin and merely one more played barely one full season at a second fieldpos (*).

    How many of us can name most of the 28 players?

    A real win shares team, or two streamlined traveling teams, must dip into the "pool" of catchers: cws 129, 113, 90, 89, 87, 71, ...

    Two traveling teams would desperately need an eighth man to cover third-short-second. Probably he would be Buck Herzog, 171 cws in three full seasons at each.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 01-16-2009 at 08:31 PM.

  6. #46

    1900-1904 and 1895-1899, career win shares (no names!)

    During the five seasons 1900-1904, there were only 484 major league debuts. Here are the numbers of career win shares for the leaders by fielding position. This table covers the 18! players with 180 cws.

    debut 1900-1904, career win shares
    P: 425, 361, 296, 265, 255, 235, 231, 198, 191 [9 pitchers]
    C:
    1B:
    2B: 268, 222, 215*
    SS: 258
    3B: 198
    LF: 354, 187
    CF:
    RF: 239, 201

    * One man worked about six and four full seasons at two fielding positions. Otherwise not one of these few cws leaders worked even one full season equivalent at a second fieldpos.

    To get 30 players we must take everyone with 140 cws, namely the 12 men represented here.

    P: 169, 163, 151, 148
    C: 155
    1B:
    2B: 149**
    SS: 171**
    3B: 157*, 153**
    LF: 148, 146
    CF: 158**
    RF:

    ** At least one full season equivalent fielding both a second and a third fieldpos.

    six leading catchers: 155, 91, 77, 74, 73, 55

    --
    During the five seasons 1895-1899 there were only 372 major league debuts, namely National League debuts. Here are the numbers of career win shares for the leaders by fielding position. This covers 34 players with 180 cws.

    debut 1895-1899, career win shares
    P: 293, 287, 269, 243, 240, 212, 209, 206, 202, 200, 183 [11 pitchers]
    C: 231*
    1B: 238, 237*, 183
    2B: 496*, 207*, 205*
    SS: 655***, 184*
    3B: 274, 208*, 191
    LF: 339, 223, 180*
    CF: 328*, 290, 272, 260, 229, 211
    RF: 446, 291

    * Ten of these players worked at least one full season equivalent fielding games at at least one other fieldpos (one at three other fieldpos ***).

    six leading catchers: 231*, 98, 92, 89, 78, 77
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 01-16-2009 at 08:33 PM.

  7. #47

    debuts before 1895, summary

    Here are a few summary statistics for the 1890-1894 and earlier debuts.

    seasons : debuts , cWS >= 180
    1890-1894 : 445 , 25 inclg 9 pitchers
    1885-1889 : 348 , 25 inclg 6 pitchers
    1880-1884 : 590 , 26 inclg 12 pitchers
    1875-1879 : 207 , 9 inclg 3 pitchers
    1871-1874 : 243 , 5 inclg 1 pitcher

    Regarding the numbers of players who tallied at least 180 career win shares:
    - I have no account of win shares before 1876, the first National League season.
    - The numbers of win shares available for each team-season doubled between 1876-78 and 1885-87 along with the numbers of championship games. The League scheduled only 60 for each club in 1877-78, the first schedules anywhere, which grew to 126 NL and 140 AA in 1886-87.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    cWS All-America Team, debuts 1910-1914 (career win shares)
    P: Alexander (476), Rixey (315), Faber, Cooper, Jones, Coveleski, Luque, Pennock (240)
    I thought is was strange that 6 pitchers all had exactly 240 win shares in their careers. I Guess what you meant was that they all had at least 240. Here's what I have on them:

    Faber - 292
    Cooper - 266
    Coveleski - 245
    Jones - 245
    Luque - 241
    Pennock - 240

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    - I have no account of win shares before 1876, the first National League season.
    From a thread that you were part of at Baseball Think Factory. Win shares for some of the big stars in the NA, from Chris Cobb - first the actual win shares and then adjusted win shares (adjusted to a later year full season). Then adjusted win shares for each player from 1876 on, and the career adjusted win shares. I guess this is Chris's estimate of each player's career win shares total if they had been playing 154 (or 162) game seasons. Not sure which standard he used.

    Player, 1871-1875
    Translated WS each season, 1871-1875 -- total
    Season adj. WS each season, 1871, 1875 -- total
    Other ML seasons played -- total adj. WS for those seasons
    Career adj. WS

    THE PLAYERS

    Cap Anson, 1871-75
    4.8, 14.5, 11.2, 10.2, 13 -- 53.7 total
    28, 52, 36, 30, 28 -- 174 total
    1876-1897 -- 567 adj. WS
    741 career

    Ross Barnes, 1871-1875
    9.8, 17.7, 23.4, 12.5, 23 -- 86.4 total
    53, 57, 63, 29,47 -- 249 total
    1876 -1881 93 adj. WS
    342 career

    Dave Eggler, 1871-75
    4.9, 13.2, 10.1, 12.7, 12.5 -- 53.4 total
    23, 39, 30, 35, 27 -- 154 total adj. WS
    1876-1885 -- 31 adj. WS
    185 career

    Bob Ferguson, 1871-75
    2.5, 5.7, 5.3, 5.6, 10.4 -- 29.5 total
    12, 25, 16, 16, 20 -- 89 total adj. WS
    1876-1884 -- 127 adj. WS
    216 career

    Davy Force, 1871-75
    4.8, 14.5, 10.5, 8.8, 17.4 -- 56.0 total
    24, 52, 34, 24, 35 -- 169 total adj. WS
    1876-1886 -- 96 adj. WS
    265 career

    Paul Hines, 1872-75
    .23, 5.5, 6.8, 13.3 -- 25.8 total
    3.5, 22, 18, 31 -- 75 total adj. WS
    1876-91 -- 419 adj. WS
    494 career

    Charley Jones, 1875
    1.3 -- 1.3 total
    15 -- 15 total adj. WS
    1876-88 --280 adj. WS
    295 career (missed two seasons due to blacklisting)

    Cal McVey, 1871-1875
    9, 7.6, 9.9, 16.6, 25.2 -- 68.3 total
    48, 24, 27, 38, 51 -- 188 total adj. WS
    1876-1879 -- 132 adj. WS
    320 career

    Levi Meyerle, 1871-75
    10.6, 5.4, 11.2, 12.9, 13.6 -- 53.7 total
    57, 19, 33, 35, 31 -- 175 total adj. WS
    1876-1878 -- 28 adj. WS
    203 career

    Jim O'Rourke, 1872-75
    2.4, 12.1, 13.0, 15.7 -- 43.2 total
    16, 33, 30, 32 -- 111 total adj. WS
    1876-93 -- 488 adj. WS
    599 career

    Dickey Pearce, 1871-75
    3.3, 4.0, 6.0, 8.0, 8.4 -- 29.7 total
    15, 12, 18, 24, 19 -- 88 total adj. WS
    1876-1877 -- 8 adj. WS
    96 career

    John Peters, 1874-75
    6.3, 11.9 -- 18.2 total
    19, 28 -- 47 total adj. WS
    1876-84 -- 121 adj. WS
    168 career

    Lip Pike, 1871-1875
    7.9, 9.1, 9.3, 14.8, 21.2 -- 62.3 total
    43, 33, 27, 44, 49 --196 total adj. WS
    1876-78 -- 81 adj. WS
    277 career

    Al Spalding, 1871-1875 BATTING ONLY
    1.8, 7.7, 7.6, 9, 10 -- 36.1 total
    10, 25, 21, 21, 20 -- 98 total adj. bWS
    1876, 77 -- 25 bWS
    123 career bWS

    Joe Start, 1871-1875
    4.5, 2.9, 3.8, 10.8, 10.9 -- 32.9 total
    21, 9, 11, 27, 25 -- 93 total adj. WS
    1876-86 -- 244 adj. WS
    337 career

    Ezra Sutton, 1871-1875
    8.4, 2.4, 10.9, 10.1, 17.3 -- 49.1 total
    45, 18, 35, 30, 37 -- 165 total adj. WS
    1876-1888 -- 273 adj. WS
    438 career

    Deacon White, 1871-1875
    4.5, 3.8, 14.4, 10.3, 23.5 -- 56.5 total
    24, 28, 39, 24, 48 -- 163 total adj. WS
    1876-90 -- 332 adj. WS
    495 career

    George Wright, 1871-1875
    6.7, 13.5, 20.4, 16.6, 22 -- 79.2 total
    36, 43, 55, 38, 45 -- 217 total adj. WS
    1876-1882 117 adj. WS
    334 career

    Harry Wright, 1871-75
    3.9, 3.4, 5.8, 6.4, 0 -- 19.5 total
    21, 11, 16, 15, 0 -- 63 total adj. WS
    63 career

    Tom York, 1871-75
    2.6, 6.9, 8.7, 5.7, 13.9 -- 37.8 total
    14, 22, 25, 17, 26 -- 104 total adj. WS
    76-85 -- 221 adj. WS
    325 career

    If his numbers are accurate then I'll have to eat my words about Ezra Sutton being a bad induction. According to this Sutton would have way over 400 win shares if he had been playing at a time when they were playing full length seasons.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    - I have no account of win shares before 1876, the first National League season.
    From a thread that you were part of at Baseball Think Factory. Win shares for some of the big stars in the NA, from Chris Cobb - first the actual win shares and then adjusted win shares (adjusted to a later year full season). Then adjusted win shares for each player from 1876 on, and the career adjusted win shares. I guess this is Chris's estimate of each player's career win shares total if they had been playing 154 (or 162) game seasons. Not sure which standard he used.
    Could you point me to which thread that is? I'd be very interested in looking through it. Thanks.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Could you point me to which thread that is? I'd be very interested in looking through it. Thanks.

    http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...from_last_year

  12. #52
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    Thanks, and that thread is worth looking at, but what I want to see most is the nuts and bolts of calculating these win shares from TPI for the National Association. If you could point me to that, I'd be most appreciative. Thanks.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  13. #53

    re: 1871-75 win shares for 20 players, by Chris Cobb

    Here is Chris Cobb's introduction to that table. He is [ed.] and I am {Ed.}.
    15. Chris Cobb Posted: September 02, 2005 at 09:58 PM (#1594606)
    Originally Posted August 30, 2003

    Win Share Translations for Selected National Association Players

    This posting contains all of the translated win shares that I have calculated, based on the ratios between batting value and fielding value in the WS and WARP systems [according to the WARP1 numbers then in use for these players. Current WARP1 evaluations might be quite different. It might be interesting to see how the WARP evals have changed, if at all—ed. note 10/1/05 {presumably 2005-09-01 --Ed.}]. It includes all of the HoMers who played in the NA, all of the players currently appearing on ballots, and some other notable players of the National Association. Translations do not include any estimates for pitching WS. Al Spalding's listing including batting win shares only.

    I posted my methodology for the translations on the McVey - Start thread; it should be findable there {much of it is lost in cyberspace -Ed.}, but I'm happy to address any questions about the translation methods.

    Players are arranged alphabetically, but, in order of adjusted WS earned, 1871-75, they are Barnes, G. Wright, Pike, McVey, Meyerle, Anson, Force, Sutton, White, Eggler, O'Rourke, York, Spalding (batting only), Start, Ferguson, Pearce, Hines, H. Wright, Peters, Jones.

    FORMAT

    Player, 1871-1875
    Translated WS each season, 1871-1875 -- total
    Season adj. WS each season, 1871, 1875 -- total
    Other ML seasons played -- total adj. WS for those seasons
    Career adj. WS
    What survives from the thread "Start and McVey" provides little more insight on the method.
    To see what there is, begin at the preface to win shares estimates for McVey. by Chris Cobb, 2003-07-25. Many contributions to the Hall of Merit, and the latter portions of all longer contributions, were lost during a website reorganization (early 2004?).

    The strategy for raw win shares is clear: estimate early Win Shares from early WARP by Clay Davenport, using data on Win Shares and WARP where both are available from James and Davenport, that is beginning 1876.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    Here is Chris Cobb's introduction to that table. He is [ed.] and I am {Ed.}.


    What survives from the thread "Start and McVey" provides little more insight on the method.
    To see what there is, begin at the preface to win shares estimates for McVey. by Chris Cobb, 2003-07-25. Many contributions to the Hall of Merit, and the latter portions of all longer contributions, were lost during a website reorganization (early 2004?).

    The strategy for raw win shares is clear: estimate early Win Shares from early WARP by Clay Davenport, using data on Win Shares and WARP where both are available from James and Davenport, that is beginning 1876.
    An Internet Archive version of "Start and McVey" exists! Here's the sought after posting:

    Posted 6:21 p.m., July 23, 2003 (#27) - Chris Cobb
    As promised here are career Win Shares for Cal McVey, as derived from WARP1

    Year -- Total -- Batting / Fielding -- adj. To 162 games (from)
    1871 -- 9 -- 7.8/1.2 -- 48 (30 games)
    1872 -- 7.6 -- 4.7/2.9 -- 24 (50 games)
    1873 -- 9.9 -- 8.5/1.4 -- 27 (60 games)
    1874 -- 16.6 -- 14.7/1.9 -- 38 (70 games)
    1875 -- 25.2 -- 20.5/4.7 -- 51 (80 games)
    1876 -- 11.6 -- 9.7/1.9 -- 31 (60 games)
    1877 -- 11.2 -- 10.7/.5 -- 30 (60 games)
    1878 -- 8.8 -- 8.6/.2 -- 22 (60 games)
    1879 -- 12.3 -- 9.9/2.4 -- 24 (84 games)
    Total -- 121.2 -- 95.1/17.1 -- 295

    For 1876-1879, WS itself records 54 WS for McVey (16, 14, 11, 13), which adjust to 136. However, 22 of those are pitching WS, which WARP does not accept. Less the pitching WS, McVey's raw WS are 45, compared to 43.9 derived from WARP. I did this calculation to verify the accuracy of the method, employed on a season-by-season basis. Expanded, the differences come to 114 WS, 107 WARP. I suspect the difference arises from the very low fielding runs WARP gives McVey, which make the conversion into a rough estimate.

    Ways of looking at the total
    295 -- WARP-derived adj. career WS -- this number should be within 5% of the total that would be arrived at by calculating all McVey's WS directly from the data.
    302 -- WARP-derived adj. Career WS 71-75 + adj. WS 76-79
    324 -- Pitching added to 302
    314 -- No pitching added, but fielding WS in the 302 figure adjusted upward by 30% (my standard pre-1893 adjustment)

    I am amused that the estimate I find most accurate -- 314 -- almost exactly matches the rougher estimate that I set out to refine -- 315.

    Having given the numbers, I'll explain the method, for those who want to know.

    Battting Win Shares

    Rather than starting from the WARP1 total, I started from BRAR. WS and WARP are in much closer agreement about batting value than about fielding value.

    WARP1 seasonal totals seem to be calculated by summing all batting, fielding, and pitching runs above replacement and multiplying that total by about .103. So BRAR/10 gives a fair approximation of BWARP. If WS and WARP are right, then this should be true Batting WS = (BWARP X 3) + Batting Replacement Level. As far as I can tell, it is. If you divide BRAR by 10 and multiply by 3 for any player season or career, you'll get a number just a bit below batting win shares. That leaves the problem of replacement level. Since replacement level isn't entirely constant, and BRAR and batting WS are not perfectly consistent, this number isn't entirely fixable, but I've found by some trial and error that 3.5 WS / 162 games gives results that are accurate within 5% in all but one case I have tried (that's Sam Thompson -- grist for the mill!). For McVey, I found that replacement level for his 76-79 seasons, as calculable by subtracting his BWAR from his BWS was 3.52, so I used this number in calculations of batting WS for his 71-75 seasons. I am very confident, therefore, that the batting win shares are accurate within 5%. (A while ago I calculated batting WS by hand for the 1875 Red Stockings, so I had a hard number to check that season against. The WS calculated off of BWARP came to 21.5; the WS calculated by hand came to 20.5 -- 5% discrepancy. Since I had the hand-calculated WS number for 1875, I used it).

    Fielding Win Shares

    Since win shares and WARP do not agree about fielding value, there is no way to predict consistently the ratio of FRAR and fielding win shares. Win shares gives much lower credit for fielding, so I figured that a straight ratio of conversion for McVey's fielding win shares would give a conservative estimate of what actually calculating his fielding WS would reveal. McVey's FWAR for 76-79 are 3.5 . His fielding WS for this period are 4.86. The ratio between them is 1.39. For McVey's 71-75 seasons, I divided his FRAR by 10 and multiplied that number by 1.39. This gives a much lower estimate of McVey's fielding value than WARP does, but I figured that it would be a fairly accurate representation of the numbers that the WS system would actually produce. In rating McVey myself, I (as I have indicated above) multiply his fielding WS by 1.3.

    Pitching Win Shares

    Win Shares gives McVey a fair amount of credit for his pitching stints, 76-79. WARP evaluates his pitching during that period as well below replacement level. These assessments are not reconcilable. Fortunately, McVey pitched hardly at all prior to 1876, so there's no need to worry about converting his pitching record in that period into WS. If you believe what WS has to say about pitching, you can give McVey additional WS. If you don't, you can leave those out. If you believe WARP, you can dock McVey's career WS by 4 or so to account for his hurting his team by taking the mound.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  15. #55
    At some point I think we had a minor conversation about Del Pratt's defense. I was just skimming through the Bill James Historical Abstract and noticed that in discussing Pratt, James believes Pratt deserved the 1919 Gold Glove, and would have been second in five other seasons, four of which he was behind the great Eddie Collins.

    This probably won't tip the scales for anyone, but it's some food for thought.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    At some point I think we had a minor conversation about Del Pratt's defense. I was just skimming through the Bill James Historical Abstract and noticed that in discussing Pratt, James believes Pratt deserved the 1919 Gold Glove, and would have been second in five other seasons, four of which he was behind the great Eddie Collins.

    This probably won't tip the scales for anyone, but it's some food for thought.
    Win shares has Pratt as a B fielder. Collins was A-, but in way more innings at 2B.

    Pratt was a very good player. Just not a hall of fame level player. He's at a similar level to Jimmy Williams and Mller Huggins. Guys who were pretty solidly above average 2Bmen for around ten seasons.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    Win Shares gives McVey a fair amount of credit for his pitching stints, 76-79.
    He was very good on the mound in '76, but got pounded in the other seasons.
    Last edited by SavoyBG; 01-17-2009 at 04:23 PM.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    963
    Babe Adams
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  19. #59
    Alexander
    Collins
    Sisler

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Phish View Post
    Alexander
    Collins
    Sisler
    You just knocked Groh back down under the number.

    I can understand Sisler getting in, but not this overwhelmingly. He's not an all time great player like Collins and Alexander.

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