Not only that, but he asked us to help him move!Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
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Not only that, but he asked us to help him move!
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What makes you think he wasn't using steroids from the beginning of his career? It is possible that many of the stars from the last 15 or so years used their entire professional careers. Particularly those who played before 2003.
Pujols could be in the same boat- he's been extremely consistent and incredibly productive his entire career. Hopefully it's legit.
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What about last year? Awesome season, but with testing these days, no way he was juicing.
Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!
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Did they develop a test for HGH that I missed? He's probably not using the same drugs he used in Texas, but that doesn't mean he's not using PED's.
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It seems that right when baseball is trying to move on past the Steroid Era something comes up about a baseball player that juiced, tested positive, and whatever else. Because its Alex Rodriguez who tested positive this is huge news in the sport, which it should be. He is a face of today's game. He's marketed everywhere. I guess my question is, what do we consider the PED, steroid era and when will we finally be out of this mess? I mean, 10 years from now will people still be talking about steroids in baseball, or will that be a thing of the past?
My collection of autographs: TTM Autos
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It'll still be around. There'll probably always be something they'll not be able to test for.
How long has cycling or track and field or the NFL been dealing with the issue, and it's still an issue in those sports.
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Hopefully you're right. (I'll check my healthy skepticism at that for now...)
I believe Knight was speaking in reference to Pujols, Mg.
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I was talking about Pujols and steroids, not A-Rod or HGH.
Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!
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Who does this guy think he is?!?
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"If we have to rely on me to hit a home run to win a game, we’re in bad shape." - Rick Camp July 4, 1985
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It will probably be some new controversial drug. And Shane McMahon will be Commissioner.
Its an entertainment business now. Those profits and TV revenues trump all.
carpe baseball
Yes, because professional baseball has never before been an industry that sought to profit from selling entertainment to its customers.
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
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The solution, of course, is to not ban the substance from the game until a test for it is in hand. Then put the rule in with immediate penalties, and you never have the intermediate periods that have given us all the heartache so far.
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Cheating is cheating now matter how long or much of it you did. If you cheated at work do you think your boss would just overlook it if you said I only did it for a little while and other people were doing it before me? No you would get fired. Cheating is never okay.
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I guess Greg Maddux is out of the Hall of Fame then. Apparently, a reporter in San Diego reported that he scuffed balls in a game and called him a "crafty veteran" for it or something like that.
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What workplace is that?
Plenty of business and plenty of schooling is a mix of cooperation and competition built on abuse of alcohol and caffeine and benzodiazepine and methylphenidate and so on, which workers and students use to manage daily cycles of focus, anxiety, relaxation, sleep, etc.
(not to match lists: alcohol:focus, etc)
In general workers and students who cheat, sometimes in connivance with or manipulation of their psychiatrists, are likely to be rewarded with promotions and stipends, good evaluations and good grades.
As I recall from my time listening to "men with mikes" and "angry white males" on sports talk radio, many of us are quick to pull the old rhetoric, "You and I would be fired if we did anything like that." But how many people do have occupations like that?
(student is an occupation, the analogy is easy to extend)
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 02-18-2009 at 08:58 AM.
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Depends on the level. If I wear the wrong shoes or pants (HGH), I'll get yelled at. If I'm late for a while (steroids), I'd just get suspended. If I stole (gambling on baseball) I'd get fired.
Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!
If we are going to compare what is done in baseball to what is done in a typcial workplace environment then first we have to define "cheating" in a normal workplace.
Like baseball there is two types of cheating. Positive cheating and negative cheating. Negative cheating is when you take away from the company or gain an advantage at the cost of your employer. Sell company secrets, steal money or supplies, falsify sales, so on and so on. In otherwords your cheating does not benefit the company and real way. Positive cheating is when your company benefits from your cheating. Overstating damage to insurance companies, padding bills, overcharging, insider trading, stealing from other companies, so on and so on.
Like baseball employers tend to come down hard on negative cheating but US companies like basebal as well have a history of being lenient when it comes to positive cheating. Depending of couse on the severity of the "cheating" and the likelihood of them getting caught.
carpe baseball
Except that when "cheating" increases the client base, sales volume and profitability of the employer, then there's a practical reason for not taking issue with it. That's exactly what happened in the major leagues and that's why it's ridiculous for the people in charge to look back now and put on a song and dance about how shocked they are these employees sullied the company's reputation. Hopefully, Selig's lack of integrity doesn't reach such low levels that he's truly willing to fire a few employees for behavior he - and his board of trustees - winked at privately in the past just to score a few cheap PR points with a public who is buying up their product hand over fist anyway. Like any industry, unions get involved when corporations start hanging employees out to dry in an act of public scapegoating by management. Let's hope the MLBPA doesn't let Selig follow through with his alleged plans for A-Rod.
Last edited by Brad Harris; 02-18-2009 at 05:45 PM.
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
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Absolutely right! MLB management did more than turn a blind eye to the PED use of players; they condoned, and even encouraged PED usage to the point where PED usage, "legal" or "illegal", was a condition of baseball. Every MLB player had the option to use PEDs. And it was an OPTION; it wasn't like a few guys had the S. S. J. (Secret Super Juice) and they weren't sharing. Players were sharing their sources; indeed, sources for PEDs were coming out of the woodwork.
It wasn't like there was one or two middle infielders that experienced a power explosion; 20 HRs became the STANDARD for a MIDDLE INFIELD ALL-STAR. If, all of a sudden, shortstops and second basemen are expected to have medium-range power, then the conditions of the game have changed, and the ready access of PEDs were one of those changes.
MLB allowed PEDs to be standard fare. They could have brought about anti-doping measures at any time; indeed, the players union may well have bought it if it had been put forth as a public health issue, and not as an inquisition, or a means to void contracts. So let's let the records stand, let's drop the inquisition, and let's have a PED policy that reflects a concern for public health, and not anti-doping sanctimony. These guys using PEDs were trying to be the best they could be, competing against peers who were doing the same thing. The moralism and Holier-Than-Thou posture of so, so many on this matter is unjust, counterproductive, and an affront to public health and baseball history.
"I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."
NL President Ford Frick, 1947
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So if your company asks you to not pay taxes for the company and it benefits it makes it right. There is no such thing as postive cheating. Since when has people lost morals to say cheating is okay. Cheating hurts the players who are great and clean and makes it unfair to them. If we continue to let cheaters in then the HOf has not real value anymore.
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If you were doing something that made you do your job better? Probably get a promotion.
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Who are these "clean" players? Please tell me.
carpe baseball
Based on your definition of cheating it would appear the HOF has never had any real value since its members - dating back to its inaugural class - have employed "unethical" tactics to win ballgames. Once again...this is not the Hall of Good Ballplayers Who Were Saints. This is the Hall of Fame. It doesn't seek to honor the ballplayers who best lived out the Sermon on the Mount, it seeks to honor the men who played the game better than their opponents. That includes a lot of "cheaters."
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
You are getting bogged down in semantics.
Positive cheating does not mean "good" or "right". It means cheating to gain something as opposed to negative cheating which is cheating to lose something.
Stealing from your company is negative cheating, stealing for your company is positive cheating. Both are wrong but quite obviously your company can and at times does view the two events differently.
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