Don't know. Give up. But let's keep playing. I like this game.Originally Posted by RuthMayBond
Walter Alston
Sparky Anderson
Cap Anson
Frank Chance
Fred Clarke
Bobby Cox
Leo Durocher
Whitey Herzog
Miller Huggins
Davey Johnson
Tony LaRussa
Tom LaSorda
Jim Leyland
Al Lopez
Connie Mack
Billy Martin
Joe McCarthy
John McGraw
Bill McKechnie
Danny Murtaugh
Lou Piniella
Frank Selee
Billy Southworth
Casey Stengel
Joe Torre
Earl Weaver
Dick Williams
Harry Wright
Ned Hanlon
Power Users
Don't know. Give up. But let's keep playing. I like this game.
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
He was a tough one to give a clue for, and yer good! (go back, I edited the original)
Hotdog, was #20 considered a giant among certain organizations!
Of course, he could also be windy
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Researcher/advocate/mod
Some points of reference that I compiled earlier:
Bill James' utterly fascinating Guide to Baseball Managers makes the point it is very difficult to evaluate how "good" a manager is (was Gene Mauch a talented manager who usually was saddled with poor teams? was Fred Haney a guy who underachieved with some very talented ones?), much less quantify it. However, it is quite possible to evaluate how successful a manager is, and to reasonably quantify that. A manager gets three points for a World Series champion, two points for a league winner but not WS champ, and one for a division winner who doesn't make the series. He also gets one point for a winning record, another for 20 more wins than losses, and one more for 100 wins. The book came out in 1996, so it doesn't deal with Wild Card teams. Cox is almost assuredly in the forties, and LaRussa and Torre are as well in this system. Leaving them and any other actives aside, here's Bill's list as of 1996:
1. McGraw 79
2. Mack 72 (five World Series wins mean something)
3. Joe McCarthy 71
4. Casey Stengel 52
5. Walt Alson 51
6. Sparky Anderson 49
7. Earl Weaver 42
Harry Wright 42
9. Leo Durocher 38
Bill McKechnie 38
11. Miller Huggins 37
12. Frank Selee 36
13. Fred Clarke 35
14. Cap Anson 34
15. Tommy Lasorda 33
16. Al Lopez 32
17. Dick Williams 31
Ned Hanlon 31
19. Billy Southworth 30
20. Billy Martin 29
21. Frank Chance 28
Charlie Grimm 28
Whitey Herzog 28
24. Ralph Houk 25
Bucky Harris 25
---------------------------
Others of note
Hughie Jennings 24
Davey Johnson 23 (as of 1996)
Gene Mauch 17
Wilbert Robinson 15
As with all such lists, it isn't perfect, but it's pretty darned good. James notes that a guy has to have about 30 points to make the HOF as a manager. He might be a tad too high with that number, but over 25 would certainly fit the bill.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
I'll do some top 30's of managers with over 1000 games managed. We'll start with a real basic one, wins (through 2008):
Code:Manager wins Connie Mack 3731 John McGraw 2763 Tony LaRussa* 2461 Bobby Cox* 2327 Sparky Anderson 2194 Bucky Harris 2157 Joe Torre* 2151 Joe McCarthy 2125 Walter Alston 2040 Leo Durocher 2008 Casey Stengel 1905 Gene Mauch 1902 Bill McKechnie 1896 Lou Piniella* 1701 Ralph Houk 1619 Fred Clarke 1602 Tommy Lasorda 1599 Dick Williams 1571 Clark Griffith 1491 Earl Weaver 1480 Miller Huggins 1413 Al Lopez... 1410 Jimmie Dykes 1406 Wilbert Robinson 1399 Chuck Tanner 1352 Jim Leyland* 1326 Ned Hanlon 1313 Cap Anson 1296 Charlie Grimm 1287 Frank Selee 1284
Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 12:02 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Next is winning percentage (minimum 1000 games managed, through 2008):
Code:Manager win % Joe McCarthy 0.615 Jim Mutrie 0.611 Charlie Comiskey 0.608 Frank Selee 0.598 Billy Southworth 0.597 Frank Chance 0.593 John McGraw 0.586 Al Lopez... 0.584 Earl Weaver 0.583 Harry Wright 0.581 Cap Anson 0.578 Fred Clarke 0.576 Davey Johnson 0.564 Pat Moran 0.561 Steve O'Neill 0.559 Walter Alston 0.558 Bobby Cox* 0.557 Miller Huggins 0.555 Patsy Tebeau 0.555 Bill Terry.. 0.555 Billy Martin 0.553 Mike Scioscia* 0.551 Ron Gardenhire* 0.549 Charlie Grimm 0.547 Sparky Anderson 0.545 Hughie Jennings 0.543 Charlie Manuel* 0.543 Tris Speaker 0.543 Joe Cronin 0.540 Leo Durocher 0.540
Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 11:59 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Next, wins minus losses (minimum 1000 games managed, through 2008):
Code:Manager wins- losses John McGraw 815 Joe McCarthy 792 Bobby Cox* 473 Walter Alston 427 Frank Selee 422 Fred Clarke 421 Earl Weaver 420 Al Lopez... 406 Sparky Anderson 360 Cap Anson 349 Harry Wright 342 Billy Southworth 340 Tony LaRussa* 315 Joe Torre* 303 Charlie Comiskey 299 Leo Durocher 299 Frank Chance 298 Miller Huggins 279 Davey Johnson 260 Billy Martin 240 Jim Mutrie 239 Charlie Grimm 220 Steve O'Neill 219 Hughie Jennings 189 Joe Cronin 181 Bill McKechnie 173 Danny Murtaugh 165 Pat Moran 162 Bill Terry... 162 Tommy Lasorda 160
Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 12:03 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Next wins times winning percentage (minimum 1000 games managed, through 2008):
Code:Manager wins * win % Connie Mack 1812.8 John McGraw 1620.5 Tony LaRussa* 1314.2 Bobby Cox* 1296.1 Joe McCarthy 1305.8 Sparky Anderson 1195.0 Joe Torre* 1157.2 Walter Alston 1139.2 Leo Durocher 1084.8 Bucky Harris 1063.5 Bill McKechnie 993.3 Casey Stengel 968.5 Fred Clarke 922.2 Gene Mauch 918.4 Lou Piniella* 886.2 Earl Weaver 862.4 Tommy Lasorda 841.6 Ralph Houk 832.1 Al Lopez.. 823.6 Dick Williams 816.7 Miller Huggins 783.9 Clark Griffith 777.8 Frank Selee 768.2 Cap Anson 748.8 Harry Wright 711.9 Charlie Grimm 703.6 Wilbert Robinson 699.8 Ned Hanlon 696.0 Billy Martin 692.9 Whitey Herzog 682.0
Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 12:16 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Lastly, wins minus losses plus wins times win percentage (minimum 1000 games managed, through 2008):
Code:Manager (w * (w% + 1)) - L John McGraw 2435.5 Joe McCarthy 2097.8 Bobby Cox* 1769.1 Connie Mack 1595.8 Walter Alston 1566.2 Sparky Anderson 1555.0 Tony LaRussa* 1529.2 Joe Torre* 1460.2 Leo Durocher 1383.8 Fred Clarke 1343.2 Earl Weaver 1282.4 Al Lopez... 1229.6 Frank Selee 1190.2 Bill McKechnie 1166.3 Cap Anson 1097.8 Miller Huggins 1062.9 Harry Wright 1053.9 Casey Stengel 1031.5 Lou Piniella* 1026.2 Bucky Harris 1002.5 Tommy Lasorda 1001.6 Billy Southworth 963.5 Dick Williams 936.7 Billy Martin 932.9 Charlie Grimm 923.6 Ralph Houk 920.1 Davey Johnson 907.3 Clark Griffith 901.8 Frank Chance 859.4 Joe Cronin 847.8
Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 12:19 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
Remember this
<He also gets one point for 20 more wins than losses, and one more for 100 wins.>
Tough for the early guys
<2. Mack 72 (five World Series wins mean something)>
50 years means something
<James notes that a guy has to have about 30 points to make the HOF as a manager.>
What happened to good vs. successful? (see above)
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
Of course Mack & McGraw are gonna be near the top of a LOT of lists just due to longevity
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Registered User
Seems to me he had more to work with than the average manager. He had three hall of famers, himself, Manush and Heilmann, and real good players like Blue and Veach, along with some pretty good pitchers like Leonard and Dauss. Not many managers have three hall of famers among their 8 position players.
His career record as a manager was 479-444 .519. Total Baseball rates him as 5.3 wins BELOW expected for his career as a manager.
I would not describe that as "winning over and over again."
Cobb was an average manger AT BEST, and should have just been a batting coach, AT MOST.
Last edited by SavoyBG; 02-13-2009 at 10:15 AM.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Like it or not, the voters really tend to vote on success rather than try to parse out who's "good" and who's "bad" as a manager.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
See
Rizzuto, Phil, and
Santo, Ron
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
#19 would have come out smelling better and been even a bigger hit if he had learned from the example of a different colored team
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
And isn't your beloved McCarthy about TWENTY-THREE wins BELOW expected?
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
#18 was the first one of these in the big leagues, eh? He wasn't really the pits, but he gets so little respect it's like people are mooning him
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
For #17 you actually get a poem:
If you caught this man's name (save one letter),
You would wonder if he wore a sweater.
Started theaters for movies,
Thought banking was groovy,
And as managers go, few were better.
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Power Users
Did you actually READ the article I gave you??? Until you do, how can I talk to you? You do not have the details.
Power Users
Fred Clarke?
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
Did you actually READ how those guys pitched then? (except for Dauss in 1925)
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
Um, you guys HAVE Fred Clarke on your list (although you are on the right track on one clue)
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
Researcher/advocate/mod
What I said applied to managers, not players.See
Rizzuto, Phil, and
Santo, Ron
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Out in LF (Bartman of BBF
I understand, but my point is that it sometimes applies to players too
Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge
carpe baseball
1. John McGraw
2. Joe McCarthy
3. Casey Stengel
4. Earl Weaver
5. Connie Mack
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
Researcher/advocate/mod
I updated all the lists I posted through 2008 except for the Bill James success points one.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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