View Poll Results: Who were the greatest managers of all time? (vote for your top 5)

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25. You may not vote on this poll
  • Walter Alston

    4 16.00%
  • Sparky Anderson

    10 40.00%
  • Cap Anson

    1 4.00%
  • Frank Chance

    1 4.00%
  • Fred Clarke

    0 0%
  • Bobby Cox

    3 12.00%
  • Leo Durocher

    5 20.00%
  • Whitey Herzog

    4 16.00%
  • Miller Huggins

    4 16.00%
  • Davey Johnson

    0 0%
  • Tony LaRussa

    2 8.00%
  • Tom LaSorda

    1 4.00%
  • Jim Leyland

    1 4.00%
  • Al Lopez

    1 4.00%
  • Connie Mack

    13 52.00%
  • Billy Martin

    3 12.00%
  • Joe McCarthy

    10 40.00%
  • John McGraw

    17 68.00%
  • Bill McKechnie

    1 4.00%
  • Danny Murtaugh

    0 0%
  • Lou Piniella

    1 4.00%
  • Frank Selee

    0 0%
  • Billy Southworth

    0 0%
  • Casey Stengel

    14 56.00%
  • Joe Torre

    4 16.00%
  • Earl Weaver

    8 32.00%
  • Dick Williams

    1 4.00%
  • Harry Wright

    0 0%
  • Ned Hanlon

    4 16.00%
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Thread: The Greatest Managers

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    As for #21, not bad for a guy who was beaned and almost killed in an explosion in the same year. He says never trade in your dreams for something else.
    Don't know. Give up. But let's keep playing. I like this game.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Don't know. Give up. But let's keep playing. I like this game.
    He was a tough one to give a clue for, and yer good! (go back, I edited the original)
    Hotdog, was #20 considered a giant among certain organizations!
    Of course, he could also be windy
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  3. #28
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    Some points of reference that I compiled earlier:

    Bill James' utterly fascinating Guide to Baseball Managers makes the point it is very difficult to evaluate how "good" a manager is (was Gene Mauch a talented manager who usually was saddled with poor teams? was Fred Haney a guy who underachieved with some very talented ones?), much less quantify it. However, it is quite possible to evaluate how successful a manager is, and to reasonably quantify that. A manager gets three points for a World Series champion, two points for a league winner but not WS champ, and one for a division winner who doesn't make the series. He also gets one point for a winning record, another for 20 more wins than losses, and one more for 100 wins. The book came out in 1996, so it doesn't deal with Wild Card teams. Cox is almost assuredly in the forties, and LaRussa and Torre are as well in this system. Leaving them and any other actives aside, here's Bill's list as of 1996:

    1. McGraw 79
    2. Mack 72 (five World Series wins mean something)
    3. Joe McCarthy 71
    4. Casey Stengel 52
    5. Walt Alson 51
    6. Sparky Anderson 49
    7. Earl Weaver 42
    Harry Wright 42
    9. Leo Durocher 38
    Bill McKechnie 38
    11. Miller Huggins 37
    12. Frank Selee 36
    13. Fred Clarke 35
    14. Cap Anson 34
    15. Tommy Lasorda 33
    16. Al Lopez 32
    17. Dick Williams 31
    Ned Hanlon 31
    19. Billy Southworth 30
    20. Billy Martin 29
    21. Frank Chance 28
    Charlie Grimm 28
    Whitey Herzog 28
    24. Ralph Houk 25
    Bucky Harris 25
    ---------------------------
    Others of note
    Hughie Jennings 24
    Davey Johnson 23 (as of 1996)
    Gene Mauch 17
    Wilbert Robinson 15

    As with all such lists, it isn't perfect, but it's pretty darned good. James notes that a guy has to have about 30 points to make the HOF as a manager. He might be a tad too high with that number, but over 25 would certainly fit the bill.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #29
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    I'll do some top 30's of managers with over 1000 games managed. We'll start with a real basic one, wins (through 2008):

    Code:
    Manager	wins
    	
    Connie Mack	3731
    John McGraw	2763
    Tony LaRussa*	2461
    Bobby Cox*	2327
    Sparky Anderson	2194
    Bucky Harris	2157
    Joe Torre*	2151
    Joe McCarthy	2125
    Walter Alston	2040
    Leo Durocher	2008
    Casey Stengel	1905
    Gene Mauch	1902
    Bill McKechnie	1896
    Lou Piniella*	1701
    Ralph Houk	1619
    Fred Clarke	1602
    Tommy Lasorda	1599
    Dick Williams	1571
    Clark Griffith	1491
    Earl Weaver	1480
    Miller Huggins	1413
    Al Lopez...	1410
    Jimmie Dykes	1406
    Wilbert Robinson	1399
    Chuck Tanner	1352
    Jim Leyland*	1326
    Ned Hanlon	1313
    Cap Anson	1296
    Charlie Grimm	1287
    Frank Selee	1284
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 12:02 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #30
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    Next is winning percentage (minimum 1000 games managed, through 2008):

    Code:
    Manager	win %
    	
    Joe McCarthy	0.615
    Jim Mutrie	0.611
    Charlie Comiskey	0.608
    Frank Selee	0.598
    Billy Southworth	0.597
    Frank Chance	0.593
    John McGraw	0.586
    Al Lopez...	0.584
    Earl Weaver	0.583
    Harry Wright	0.581
    Cap Anson	0.578
    Fred Clarke	0.576
    Davey Johnson	0.564
    Pat Moran	0.561
    Steve O'Neill	0.559
    Walter Alston	0.558
    Bobby Cox*	0.557
    Miller Huggins	0.555
    Patsy Tebeau	0.555
    Bill Terry..	0.555
    Billy Martin	0.553
    Mike Scioscia*	0.551
    Ron Gardenhire*	0.549
    Charlie Grimm	0.547
    Sparky Anderson	0.545
    Hughie Jennings	0.543
    Charlie Manuel*	0.543
    Tris Speaker	0.543
    Joe Cronin	0.540
    Leo Durocher	0.540
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 11:59 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  6. #31
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    Next, wins minus losses (minimum 1000 games managed, through 2008):

    Code:
    Manager	wins- losses
    	
    John McGraw	815
    Joe McCarthy	792
    Bobby Cox*	473
    Walter Alston	427
    Frank Selee	422
    Fred Clarke	421
    Earl Weaver	420
    Al Lopez...	406
    Sparky Anderson	360
    Cap Anson	349
    Harry Wright	342
    Billy Southworth	340
    Tony LaRussa*	315
    Joe Torre*	303
    Charlie Comiskey	299
    Leo Durocher	299
    Frank Chance	298
    Miller Huggins	279
    Davey Johnson	260
    Billy Martin	240
    Jim Mutrie	239
    Charlie Grimm	220
    Steve O'Neill	219
    Hughie Jennings	189
    Joe Cronin	181
    Bill McKechnie	173
    Danny Murtaugh	165
    Pat Moran	162
    Bill Terry...	162
    Tommy Lasorda	160
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 12:03 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #32
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    Next wins times winning percentage (minimum 1000 games managed, through 2008):

    Code:
    Manager	wins * win %
    	
    Connie Mack	1812.8
    John McGraw	1620.5
    Tony LaRussa*	1314.2
    Bobby Cox*	1296.1
    Joe McCarthy	1305.8
    Sparky Anderson	1195.0
    Joe Torre*	1157.2
    Walter Alston	1139.2
    Leo Durocher	1084.8
    Bucky Harris	1063.5
    Bill McKechnie	993.3
    Casey Stengel	968.5
    Fred Clarke	922.2
    Gene Mauch	918.4
    Lou Piniella*	886.2
    Earl Weaver	862.4
    Tommy Lasorda	841.6
    Ralph Houk	832.1
    Al Lopez..	823.6
    Dick Williams	816.7
    Miller Huggins	783.9
    Clark Griffith	777.8
    Frank Selee	768.2
    Cap Anson	748.8
    Harry Wright	711.9
    Charlie Grimm	703.6
    Wilbert Robinson	699.8
    Ned Hanlon	696.0
    Billy Martin	692.9
    Whitey Herzog	682.0
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 12:16 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #33
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    Lastly, wins minus losses plus wins times win percentage (minimum 1000 games managed, through 2008):

    Code:
    Manager	(w * (w% + 1)) - L
    	
    John McGraw	2435.5
    Joe McCarthy	2097.8
    Bobby Cox*	1769.1
    Connie Mack	1595.8
    Walter Alston	1566.2
    Sparky Anderson	1555.0
    Tony LaRussa*	1529.2
    Joe Torre*	1460.2
    Leo Durocher	1383.8
    Fred Clarke	1343.2
    Earl Weaver	1282.4
    Al Lopez...	1229.6
    Frank Selee	1190.2
    Bill McKechnie	1166.3
    Cap Anson	1097.8
    Miller Huggins	1062.9
    Harry Wright	1053.9
    Casey Stengel	1031.5
    Lou Piniella*	1026.2
    Bucky Harris	1002.5
    Tommy Lasorda	1001.6
    Billy Southworth	963.5
    Dick Williams	936.7
    Billy Martin	932.9
    Charlie Grimm	923.6
    Ralph Houk	920.1
    Davey Johnson	907.3
    Clark Griffith	901.8
    Frank Chance	859.4
    Joe Cronin	847.8
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009 at 12:19 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Some points of reference that I compiled earlier:

    Bill James' utterly fascinating Guide to Baseball Managers makes the point it is very difficult to evaluate how "good" a manager is (was Gene Mauch a talented manager who usually was saddled with poor teams? ),
    Remember this

    <He also gets one point for 20 more wins than losses, and one more for 100 wins.>

    Tough for the early guys

    <2. Mack 72 (five World Series wins mean something)>

    50 years means something

    <James notes that a guy has to have about 30 points to make the HOF as a manager.>

    What happened to good vs. successful? (see above)
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  10. #35
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    Of course Mack & McGraw are gonna be near the top of a LOT of lists just due to longevity
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Ty Cobb, as manager, never had the horses. Yet, he won. Over and over again.

    Seems to me he had more to work with than the average manager. He had three hall of famers, himself, Manush and Heilmann, and real good players like Blue and Veach, along with some pretty good pitchers like Leonard and Dauss. Not many managers have three hall of famers among their 8 position players.

    His career record as a manager was 479-444 .519. Total Baseball rates him as 5.3 wins BELOW expected for his career as a manager.

    I would not describe that as "winning over and over again."

    Cobb was an average manger AT BEST, and should have just been a batting coach, AT MOST.
    Last edited by SavoyBG; 02-13-2009 at 10:15 AM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    <James notes that a guy has to have about 30 points to make the HOF as a manager.>

    What happened to good vs. successful? (see above)
    Like it or not, the voters really tend to vote on success rather than try to parse out who's "good" and who's "bad" as a manager.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Like it or not, the voters really tend to vote on success rather than try to parse out who's "good" and who's "bad" as a manager.
    See
    Rizzuto, Phil, and
    Santo, Ron
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  14. #39
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    #19 would have come out smelling better and been even a bigger hit if he had learned from the example of a different colored team
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Total Baseball rates him as 5.3 wins BELOW expected for his career as a manager.
    And isn't your beloved McCarthy about TWENTY-THREE wins BELOW expected?
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  16. #41
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    #18 was the first one of these in the big leagues, eh? He wasn't really the pits, but he gets so little respect it's like people are mooning him
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  17. #42
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    For #17 you actually get a poem:

    If you caught this man's name (save one letter),
    You would wonder if he wore a sweater.
    Started theaters for movies,
    Thought banking was groovy,
    And as managers go, few were better.
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Seems to me he had more to work with than the average manager. He had three hall of famers, himself, Manush and Heilmann, and real good players like Blue and Veach, along with some pretty good pitchers like Leonard and Dauss. Not many managers have three hall of famers among their 8 position players.

    His career record as a manager was 479-444 .519. Total Baseball rates him as 5.3 wins BELOW expected for his career as a manager.

    I would not describe that as "winning over and over again."

    Cobb was an average manger AT BEST, and should have just been a batting coach, AT MOST.
    Did you actually READ the article I gave you??? Until you do, how can I talk to you? You do not have the details.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    #18 was the first one of these in the big leagues, eh? He wasn't really the pits, but he gets so little respect it's like people are mooning him
    Fred Clarke?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    along with some pretty good pitchers like Leonard and Dauss.
    Did you actually READ how those guys pitched then? (except for Dauss in 1925)
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Fred Clarke?
    Um, you guys HAVE Fred Clarke on your list (although you are on the right track on one clue)
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    See
    Rizzuto, Phil, and
    Santo, Ron
    What I said applied to managers, not players.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    What I said applied to managers, not players.
    I understand, but my point is that it sometimes applies to players too
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  24. #49
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    1. John McGraw
    2. Joe McCarthy
    3. Casey Stengel
    4. Earl Weaver
    5. Connie Mack
    "What is not discussed, will not be advanced." -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    "They didn't call amphetamines 'ability pills' because they allowed you to re-roll your AD&D character sheet." -- Dan Szymborski

  25. #50
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    I updated all the lists I posted through 2008 except for the Bill James success points one.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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