28 teams... hows the tournament gonna be like? 4 teams in each pool=7 pool?
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28 teams... hows the tournament gonna be like? 4 teams in each pool=7 pool?
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Boy, it'll be real fun watching Great Britain lose to the USA 32-0 or something.
This is ridiculous, there's too many teams in the WBC as it is. The Netherlands is the only country in Europe that deserves a spot, we don't need to see the tournament snuffed out because Croatia's sad they don't get to put their Little League-caliber team out vs. the USA/Japan/Cuba/DR.
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Seven pools won't work. Neither will Croatia v. USA. But an opening 16-team play-in round would. With four pools of four teams each. So you take the bottom four teams from the last WBC (Canada, Panama, Taiwan, and South Africa) and match 'em up against 12 new teams in early March. The winner of each pool then gets one of the last remaining spots in the tournament.
We don't know what the planning is for now, of course. But that idea makes some sense to me. It also seems like an idea that the IBAF would go crazy for: More teams and a play-in round arguably gives the IBAF more say in who's in the tournament--and therefore gives the IBAF some more relevance. I'm not sure if MLB or the player's union would be psyched to have their players sign up for ANOTHER round of play--even if it's against minnows like Croatia.
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so here is what I know/heared about the WBC 2013
28 teams over all - expansion in europe with Germany (most likely), Spain (neutral)and maybe a fifth country (depending on if there is a market for MLB)
first round will be a Qualifier round - teams with no win at last WBC + newly teams -- this Qualifier could be held instead of the World CUP in 2011(new format for WCmaybe all 3 years starting 2012)
example:
in 2011/2012 Chinese Taipei, South Africa, Canada, Panama, + Germany and whoever will play out 4 spots for the WBC 2013
all other teams from WBC 2K9 are allready qualified
so only players from countries with no win at the last wbc will have another tournament
The only thing you know is you never know and that you know for sure!
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I actually like the sound of what Paula reported. I'm just worried about MLBers not showing up for a quali tourney. I feel Canada's senior team could still qualify with only AAA players but what about other teams like Panama?
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Pretty much what I predicted. I'm smart.Originally Posted by Paula59
The qualifying round is a good idea, but I'm not sure what the public interest would be. If you put it in Taiwan, it'll get a lot of play there. Would ESPN want to broadcast those games?
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Doubtful. The time difference would be tough and there probably wouldn't be much of an audience willing to stay up that late to watch Chinese Taipei v. South Africa. An online channel might garner some interest, particularly for fans in the contending countries.
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I'm sure though the MLB channel would air games. Since sadly, Canada will fall into this winless team quali tourney, I'm sure Sportsnet will air it. I dont know if we'd get any of our MLBers to play in it though.
So the quali torueny would be the 4 winless teams of Canada, Panama, South Africa, and Taiwan and 8 other countries for a total of 12? Or 4 winless teams plus 12 other countires for a total of 16 that when combined with the 12 teams that got wins in the 09 WBC, adds up to 28?
As for venues, my thoughts depend on when you could play it. Because most of the winless teams (except Canada) feature only 1-2 MLBers, you might not be restrained totally by the MLB schedule. Maybe Germany in the summer or Taiwan?
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Lots of teams could have major league players: Taiwan, Colombia, Nicaragua, and, of course, Canada. Also, what's gonna stop the German baseball federation from finding German-American players to play for the Fatherland? And a real life professional German could lay too: Max Kepler or Kai Gronauer might be in the Show by then.
Since the WBC is a showcase for MLB talent, I don't see how a prelim round could be scheduled during the regular season. It would make sense to me to do it before or after the regular season ends in 2012.
Also, I understand the proposal to be a 16 team preliminary round. That could be done in a single location (Taiwan) or split into four separate locations with four team pools.
And, yes, MLB Net would be the perfect place to show all the games. Especially if the tournament is in the off-season.
Last edited by Rally Monkey; 08-12-2010 at 10:46 AM.
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I was just thinking that really, how many countries have the weather to host the qualis either in March or November that would be involved in with good baseball structures? I dont know the weather but is Taiwan's weather good for baseball by then? Or any South American countries with decent enough stadiums? I would have said Australia would be good but their team would pass automatically into the WBC based on having one win.
Also, what teams do you think would be involved? Heres mine:
Canada (No wins 2009 WBC)
Panama (No wins 2009 WBC)
South Africa (No wins 2009 WBC)
Taiwan (No wins 2009 WBC)
Nicaragua (S. America)
Columbia (S. America)
Brazil (S. America)
Spain (Europe)
Germany (Europe)
Great Britain (Europe, lots of English perhaps can relate to the countries?)
Czech Republic (Europe)
Thailand (Asia)
Phillipines (Asia)
Ghana (Africa)
France (Europe)
Argentina (S.America)
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well germany follows the ideal to have homegrown players, a team everybody could identify with (it would be possible to field a team that wins the euro but then we won´t be better then other countries just relying on mercenarys to have short term success)
for sure we need some additions, especially in the pitching section, for a qualifier or the wbc itself
I hope they will. Both got great potential. Kai allready showed it but Max has to proof it yet
I was in Taiwan at the Olympic Qualifier February 2008 weather was better then at the World Cup November 2007. February was like late spring time November had some rainy days but still weared shorts all the time getting a little bit colder during nights
I think besides of the no-win-teams of wbc the open 12 spots should be filled with the next top 3 finisher of the respective continental championship (Europe, Asia, Africa, S.America) not allready part of the wbc
Europe
3. Germany
4. Greece - imo with their mercenary team they should not get in France should get this spot
5. Sweden
Asia
5. Philippines
6. Thailand
7. Indonesia
Africa
2. Nigeria
3. Ghana
4. Zimbabwe
but I think Africa got bigger problems then who should participate at one of these qualifiers and the level of play is way to low - see South Africa wins it all with no problem but got some problems on international stage
Central and South Americas
2. Nicaragua
4. Netherlands Antilles
7. Brazil
or you go by the IBAF rankings because this includes the development of the countries participating on international stage. Also the next top 3 of the continent should get the call.
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I think Cut and Paula pretty much covered it. Maybe too many European countries in Cut's, too many Asian and African countries in Paula's. I figure MLB will want to have as many countries that have players in the majors and minors, and--where there aren't any such players--include countries or regions that have a baseball tradition or are developing a baseball tradition--and have residents with some disposable income. (Gotta sell that WBC merch!)
Here's my list (in no particular order):
Canada, Panama, RSA, Taiwan;
Colombia (a given);
Nicaragua (same);
Germany (good players, god history, great national organization);
Philippines (great history, desire to grow the game);
Ghana (location of several MLB and private development initiatives);
Czech Rep. (still has prospects coming out of there);
Spain (location of Braves academy, lots of prospects);
Palau (winners of this year's baseball gold medal in the Micronesian Games);
Brazil (location of Rays Academy, growing popularity);
Sweden (growing popularity, some prospects going to MLB European Academy);
Thailand (best national baseball team in SE Asia, long-time rivals to Philippines);
Hong Kong (hell, how many other national teams have starred in their own commercial movies?)
Venues? Well, Taiwan would have to host one round. The honor of hosting a round would help make up for the shame of going winless--and losing to China!--in the 2009 WBC. Neither Colombia or Nicaragua have adequate MLB-quality fields, so--unless one gets built quick--I don't see any of the opening pools going to Latin America. Canada, of course, could host games in Vancouver or Toronto under the domes. Not sure there'd be much excitement for anything other than the Canada games (and even those--against a team like, I dunno, Palau) may not excite too many.
The other obvious choice is the USA. The spring training facilities in Arizona and Florida are more than up to the task. Team Canada, for example, could host a pool at the Blue Jay's spring training stadium in Dunedin, Florida. And remember that spring training fields in Orlando and Phoenix hosted games in the 2006 WBC. Why not again--especially for a play-in round?
I'd be surprised if things don't shake out along these lines.
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I think going by the IBAF ranking, the number of professional baseball players (not just MLB but NPB, KPB and so on) and the development of youth program( like international academy and its own league) would suit the best for choosing the rest of the team.
besides Canada, RSA, Panama, Taiwan the teams would be...
South America, pan america, Caribbean's
-Columbia
-Nicaragua
- Ned. Antilles
-Brazil
Europe
-Germany
-GB
-Spain
-Greece
-Czech
Africa
-Ghana
Asia
-Philippines
- Thailand
The asia would combine with South central america and only two nations would advance
Same with Europe and Africa, only two nations would advance,
After that 8 team sudden-death tournament which includes Canada, Taiwan, Panama and RSA
I think the nation that meets with RSA is lucky because RSA is not that of a big baseball country, i think strong EU country can win it (perhaps, Germany?)
but country that meets with Canada... bye bye
Last edited by island slugger; 08-12-2010 at 08:18 PM.
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You guys are ignoring a few realities here. The logic seems to be "What team have I heard of the most? They must be good!"
1. South Africa is likely to be the only team from Africa. Forget Ghana, Zimbabwe, Nigeria or any other country. The last time South Africa played any other African teams the SMALLEST margin of victory was ten runs, with the norm being about 15 (including Ghana and Zimbabwe).
2. The weaker Central American teams are better than most European or Asian teams that get more publicity. The Guatemalan national team has been holding its own with US collegiate team for several years now. Teams like Guatemala, Honduras, and possibly El Salvador will beat Sweden, Thailand, Philippines, or Palau easily every day of the week.
3. Any tournament held during the summer will feature no minor league players, much less major leaguers. How many minor league guys did you see at the European Championship this year? Any and all games will be held in February/March. They aren't going to split up the event. How interested would you be if winning your division qualified you for the playoffs...next year?
4. My guess would be that there won't be a single elimination play-in round. The teams want to gain more experience, and MLB wants to make more money than will be gained from just a single game. I'd expect to see groups of 4 playing a round robin or double elimination like we have now.
5. The only way you would ever see an team from Oceania not named Australia is if they combined to form one team representing all the Pacific Islands, similar to the West Indies in Cricket. But they would still get mercy-ruled every game.
6. Players signed in MLB organization does not mean the national team would be stronger if they played. Those players may be no better than what is currently in playing in that country's domestic league, but only that they have a higher upside. Some guy in single A may be a Cy Young pitcher in the future, but it doesn't mean he crack the MLB roster now.
A more likely list of 12 teams to be added would be, in my opinion:
Colombia
Nicaragua
Brazil
Guatemala
Honduras
Germany
Greece
And here we run into a problem. There just aren't enough good baseball nations out there to fill 28 spots. The 10th best squad of American players could beat the 15th best country in the world convincingly. You're either going to see a lot of really bad blowouts or the Bulgarian national team with heavy Minnesota accents.
Note that some of these teams (Especially European teams) would have to rely on someone's mother's uncle's brother who lives in Alabama but has dual citizenship to be competitive.
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Wrong. I, at least, have been listening to what the IBAF and Paul Archey have been saying since the last WBC. And they've made clear that they expect to add one more African team, at least three more European teams, and at least one more Asian team. (That's back when all the talk was about expanding the tournament to 24 teams.) If you take a look back at the comments in this forum, you can learn all about it.
So that's one thing driving my predictions. The other is my sense that throwing in a bunch of additional Latin American teams with very little baseball tradition (sorry, but while some Guatamalans and Salvadorans play baseball, those are soccer nations) won't do much to spread the gospel of the game through the world. And, sorry, but they're very, very poor. Not gonna move a whole lot of Yankees pennants in Guate.
A lot of my picks are wrong, I know. But, as it's been said, the teams get pretty marginal after, like, 22. They all sort of stink. So it makes sense to fill out the tournament with countries that make strategic sense in promoting the mission of the WBC: market the sport, make more dough.
(One other thing: Why all the love for Greece around here? Are there any even marginal Greek prospects anywhere in pro ball? I don't get it.)
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wrong! Like Rally allready told this talk is going a long time now and is based on some statements. Some people on here have some plus infos so they can´t be that wrong.
This thing is called World Baseball Classic and not Americas Baseball Classic - you can watch the best (S.Americas) teams at the Carribean Series, Pan Am Games etc -so no need to show the world how good BB in Peru or the Falkland island is.
These guessings who should be in this World tournament are based on strength of play (continental, international), balanced situation to grow the game worldwide and realistic situations if it would make sense to have a country to participate.
BUT remember MLB is a economic partnership with strongly interest to expand their brand - so at the end MLB can choose Austria to participate if they see a market there and have chances to biuld a competitive team to get some fans buy some merchandising.
You are right with this but remember that Germany has beaten South Africa before and RSA got a loosing streak international of about L10 or something like that - so does this mean RSA shouldn´t be in the next WBC?
Ghana, Zimbabwe, etc for sure are on the level of Belgium, Austria or maybe Switzerland and from my point of view they shouldn´t be at the WBC sportwise or politicalwise because they have bigger problems to solve instead of getting mercied at the WBC - but if this helps to grow the game on the continent of Africa why not?
If we just go by economic points i believe besides some european teams it would make no sense to add some other countries coming from Africa, S. America - maybe Asia
I don´t understand that too! I just put them in because of their 4th place finish at the EC and my plan of getting teams together for a Qualifier.
Greece at the EC was a team of former pro players from the US somehow linked to Greece most of them allready retired years ago and some none talented origin Greece players.
Just have a look at the game Croatia against Greece - Greece lost beacause they have sended the origin team in the fight. The SS had to yell at the other players to let them know what to do.
Greece for sure would get a competitive team for the WBC out of US mercenarys and could be a market -but remember they don´t have a league, they don´t have teams, they don´t have ballparks - so I wonder if this would be a non profit addition
Last edited by Paula59; 08-13-2010 at 05:06 AM.
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The goal of the WBC should be first to determine a world champion, to "Spread the gospel of the game" second. The best teams play, and if Thailand or Spain can get in, good for them. Most of the other countries who would get in instead of Central American nations aren't exactly baseball crazy. The fact of the matter is baseball is most popular in Latin America than most other parts of the world, and thus there are more quality teams in Latin America than most other continents.
True. Which is why we shouldn't have a 28 team WBC for another decade. 24 teams is all the teams we have now who could possibly compete.A lot of my picks are wrong, I know. But, as it's been said, the teams get pretty marginal after, like, 22. They all sort of stink. So it makes sense to fill out the tournament with countries that make strategic sense in promoting the mission of the WBC: market the sport, make more dough.
In large part, because they were able to compete in the 2004 Olympics and not look like fools. Yes, they would use almost all ringers, but so will almost all European teams.(One other thing: Why all the love for Greece around here? Are there any even marginal Greek prospects anywhere in pro ball? I don't get it.)
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The goal of the WBC is to spread the gospel by determining a world champion. Including Thailand instead of Guatemala won't matter one bit in determing who the world champion is. Team Japan and Team USA couldn't care less about who the minnows are. They won't lay them anyway.
As for Greece: Paula's right. 2004 was a long time ago, and there's been no development there for years. Why put them on the world stage instead of a country that has really been working hard to nurture baseball--like Lithuania or Sweden or Belgium?
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Um, the real Germans just beat the Greek ringers at the 2010 European Championship and the real Swedes almost did.
As for Guatemala and Honduras being better than the European teams, Spain beat Colombia (far better than either of those other two) in the 2005 World Cup and came close against both Puerto Rico and Cuba in the 2009 World Cup. In the 2009 Baseball World Cup, Sweden almost beat the Netherlands Antilles, which is far better than Guatemala and Honduras (see the 2008 Americas Baseball Cup for instance). I don't think you're giving the European countries enough credit. I'm much more worried about how a team like Ghana or Thailand would do - they're much more likely to get thumped than a European squad.
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The problem is, your can't really use World Cup or European Championship performances to determine how well a team will do at the WBC. Colombia didn't send Edgar Renteria to the 2005 World Cup. Greece didn't send Nick Markakis and George Kottaras to the European Championships. Thailand did get thumped in the 2007 World Cup, with their best on the field. They don't have anyone in the minor leagues, nor is there a large contingent of ringers they could bring in. The same goes for the Philippines, Sweden, or Ghana. Nobody's arguing the Dominican Republic is a bad baseball team even though their results (when they play at all) in the World Cup have been less than stellar.
I think the European teams will be able to compete with the lower level teams in the WBC-in about a decade. The MLB Academies over there are making progress, and you see more and more guys getting signed in the minors. But most of the mid-level European countries won't be able to compete-yet.
Here's my proposal for the WBC (or possibly World Cup). If you want countries to gain playing experience and have a qualifying system, use the IIHF (Ice Hockey) system of promotion and relegation. Basically you have a Division I, Division II, Division III, etc. The finalists from Division II move to Division I for the next tournament, and the two poorest teams in DI go to DII. This way developing nations can still move up and gain experience, but all (or most) games are competitive.
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To be sure, Ghana's not gonna send any ringers. But neither would Honduras or Guatemala. And off the top of my I can think of a few pretty decent ringers for the Philippines and Thailand: Tim Lincecum and Johnny Damon. And there are ton of Americans who could play on the Swedish team.
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If we're just talking about quali tourney, would some teams really look that out of place? Maybe in games against Canada/Panama/Taiwan but other then those 3 teams, I wouldnt imagine alot of embarrassing mercy games.
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Colombia and especially Nicaragua would field very competitive teams. South Africa would mercy Ghana in five innings. Would mercy Thailand and Philippines, too, I reckon. Spain would field a lot of Latin Americans and, with that team, would overwhelm a lot of the competition.
So I think the competition could be pretty good at the top levels, but that there would be some real disparity between the top and the bottom. I don't think that's all bad.
I say the more the merrier. More baseball is good. The WBC was created to advance baseball throughout the world which creates more excitement, hence governments spend more money on baseball to develop the game. If the Phillipines baseball team stinks today, maybe the team will be good ten years from today. I never thought I would watch the Netherlands (mostly Carib players) beat the the mighty DR.
Anyway, with the infusion of great young talent throughout MLB in 2010 which is one of my favorite things about baseball, I started to think about potential rosters for the 2013 WBC.
USA
c Joe Mauer/Buster Posey
1B Ryan Howard/Fielder/Texiera
2B Chase Utley
SS Tulo
3B Longoria/Zimmerman/Wright
LF Stanton/Braun
CF Trout/Rasmus/Kemp
RF Heyward
SP Strasburg
Venezuela
C Wilson Ramos
1B Montero
2B Prado
SS Andrus/Escobar
3B Cabrera to get his bat in the line up
LF Tabata/Ordonez
CF Franklin Gutierrez
RF Carlos Gonzalez
SP Hernandez
Thoughts
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A qualifier round almost 2 years in advance is dumb on several levels. Among them: The public won't care, and the players could change from the time a country qualifies to the time the 2013 WBC rolls around.
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