It seems the original East Africa team coincided more or less with the first attempt at integration in East Africa with the original East African Community (1967-1977) and it's predecessor organizations (starting around the late 1940s).
For now with baseball this situation might not arise since the most likely circumstances are that the WBC will be played in the USA for the foreseeable future and all MLB players are legal residents there anyway (and since Puerto Rico is a US Territory and part of the US Customs Zone unlike some other territories then all MLB players would have no trouble playing in Puerto Rico). Likewise if WBC matches were held in the Dominican Republic it wouldn't be a problem since the Dominican Republic does note require visas for American citizens. If baseball grows to be anything remotely as wide as soccer though then rules based on things other than citizenship (legal papers) will lead to headaches.
And how would commonsense understanding of identity describe someone who was born in Germany to parents who were not German citizens?
Someone born in Germany to a couple of tourists will not be given German citizenship (unlike someone born in the USA to a couple of tourists). So if you or I were to be born in Germany while our parents were tourists (and our parents came from say Namibia), we would have a very difficult time entering Germany because we would need a Schengen visa (either Schengen zone-wide or Germany-specific) and no visa officer is going to simply grant a visa because we happened to born in Germany to tourists and now wished to play for the German baseball team in the baseball world cup.
Besides, whether we believe a legal condition to be absurd or not (and I don't think it is because different countries and cultures have different views on identity and thus create different citizenship laws), the fact remains that these legal conditions can greatly affect the sport in question - just ask the Northern Ireland Football governing body who now face the prospect of losing players to the Republic of Ireland due to the Good Friday Agreements (laws) despite the rules drawn up decades ago by the FA, SFA, FAW and IFA to overcome the fact that Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales do not have separate citizenship and there is no way to prove a player is English, Scottish, Northern Irish, etc (for example what would call a person who is born in Scotland to parents who were born in England and Wales and who in turn had grandparents born in Northern Ireland?)
First attempt at integration? When did these states win independence from British East Africa? not until after 1958, perhaps?It seems the original East Africa team coincided more or less with the first attempt at integration in East Africa with the original East African Community (1967-1977) and it's predecessor organizations (starting around the late 1940s).
... I don't have time now to do more than grab this from the long article on Kenya at wikipedia.
The first direct elections for Africans to the Legislative Council took place in 1957. Despite British hopes of handing power to "moderate" African rivals, it was the Kenya African National Union (KANU) of Jomo Kenyatta that formed a government shortly before Kenya became independent on 12 December 1963.
He is from India. He is Indian. Changes to this or that legal document don't change the reality of his past, and the person that his experiences have formed. If I relocate to Japan and get citizenship there for some reason, I am a citizen of the Japanese state, but I am not Japanese.
No offense, but I find it hard to believe that you really don't understand this.
You are aware that Germany has a whole population of German-born people of Turkish descent who are still identified as Turks? Their parents weren't tourists, either; they were permanent residents, but German society isn't notably assimilative. American society being a different context, children of immigrant populations identify as Americans to a much greater extent... but depending on their family, they may also have a strong identity with the land of their ancestors. (The differing rules of citizenship show that laws may reflect different social conditions to a certain extent, but the laws are not, themselves, the society.)
I'm not saying it can't get complicated. Often one person can legitimately claim the heritage of several peoples. That's another part of my point--the absolute status reflected in legal citizenship (you "are" this, not that) does not reflect the reality of the human experience.
Last edited by Pere; 04-03-2009 at 01:57 PM.
Put it this way - a fictional Mr. G was born in Yugoslavia. He grew up in Yugoslavia and on the census he calls himself a Yugoslav (having parents from Serbia and Croatia). Now Yugoslavia legally ceases to exist. It doesn't change his past or his experience or how he feels, but he is not a Yugoslav anymore. So as much as he may feel Yugoslav, he would not be able to play for a Yugoslav baseball team in a world cup because of those legal documents which say that the country which he feels a part of "doesn't exist".
Except neither you, nor I can be sure the visa would be granted. Unless you've actually had to apply for a visa, it's easy to underestimate just how arbitrary visa issuance can be for some countries. There are quotas and such and the visa officer could just be having a really bad day and doesn't like the look of your face. At the end of the day, visas are granted at the discretion of the embassy official, if they don't want to grant it they don't have to.I think it would be unlikely that a visa would be denied. If it was, yes, that would be crazy, but it would be the visa rules which were cracked, not the tournament's.
And what good would it be claiming the visa rules were cracked? The organizers of the tournament would be even more cracked if they went about life as though they could over-ride visa rules. If the organizers complained they are not likely to get the visa rules changed since in most cases those who are in charge of the rules couldn't care less about sports tournaments like the baseball world cup over the security issues on which those rules were supposedly based.
Which would mean that commonsense application of identity to players for a national baseball team could not be applied with any kind of certainty. Why would some ethnic and cultural backgrounds automatically result in a person being considered as being from that background despite being generations removed as opposed to some others?It would depend on their ethnic and cultural background and the context of their family upbringing and the larger society, of course.
It's because only recently were children of permanent residents granted German citizenship upon birth. Before that permanent residents may as well have been tourists in terms of the nationality law.You are aware that Germany has a whole population of German-born people of Turkish descent who are still identified as Turks? Their parents weren't tourists, either; they were permanent residents, but German society isn't notably assimilative.
There is something similar with the Palestinians in Lebanon and Syria.
So those Turks in Germany from the 1960s-1980s and those Palestinians in the Levant could not play for the German, Lebanese or Syrian baseball teams at home and away since if they went away for an extended period for a tournament they may find themselves unable to return "home" to play.
Due to differing laws. It has very little to do with how others perceive them. You are born in America and therefore you are American. However if you are born in Germany you may not be a German.American society being a different context, children of immigrant populations identify as Americans to a much greater extent...
True, but as you said it (laws) reflects human society which is the sum of human experience. If most Indians and Japanese did think that dual identity was something their countries could accomodate then they would have changed the laws. As it is nobody disagrees with the laws in those countries to get them changed and hence accept the underlying assumptions in those laws. Likewise with Germany and its birth citizenship rules.I'm not saying it can't get complicated. Often one person can legitimately claim the heritage of several peoples. That's another part of my point--the absolute status reflected in legal citizenship (you "are" this, not that) does not reflect the reality of the human experience.
Italy's WBC team in no way represented Italy's overall baseball talent.
End of Story.
Wow this thread has turned technical and dull!
dominicans have dual citizenship, and under dominican law, any person who's parents and/or grandpaernts are dominican citizens (included naturalized citizens) or where born in the dominican republic are consider dominicans, and don't even need to apply for dominican citizenship or a passport and dont' need to have a domincan birthcertificate either; also if you were born there and your parents enter the country LEGALLY, you are consider dominican under dominican law even if then you go back to your parents' country and never go back.What'smore , a dominican who has acquired a new citizenship is inmidiatly given the dual citizenship (don't need to apply for it cuz it's automatical) that's y MOISES ALOU could play for them in the last classic even though he was born in Atlanta.
so the reason they had that rule is cuz they are playing under IBF rules which is the one that has that stupid rule, to begin with, and that's y in the 2004 olympics, the Greece Team played with a team made up mainly of americans
get you facts straight
Last edited by lewis; 04-04-2009 at 06:28 PM.
Latin America: Colombia, Nicaragua, Brazil;
Europe: Germany, Spain, Czech Republic;
Y would they wanna add 3 more teams from latin america??? aren't there enough!!!!!!! I mean. besides Nicaragua, the rest all suck including Colombia that even though they have 2 Major leaguers they have lost with their full roster to really weak teams like honduras, costa rica, guatemala, brazil, ecuador, jamaica, Virgin Island and argentina. and I know a bunch of colombian and neither like baseball.
4 countries from europe makes more sense than having 3 from the americas, as a matter of fact from latin america only Nicaragua should be allow to play since ther are alreay enough american countries and all the other countries on this side of the world suck awfully !!!!!!!!!
and about spain, well let's just say that a countgry whose whole team is from cuba, Venezuela, and the Dominican rep. shouldn't be allow to participate unless the can form a team with spaniards only, something that would make them way too!!!!!!!!!!!!!! weak, and the same goes to great britain, scotland, wales, Irland and Northern Irland whose whole teams are make up of americans, canadians, australians and south africans
the phillipines should be in the next since the sport is quite popular there, but no other country from asia has a clue on how to play this thing, (the only reason why thailand is in the IBF ranking is cuz the particepate in the asia games, but that doesn't they are actually good at it, they have never won anything)
and about africa: well, ghana has no bussiness here, if look at the resolts of the last couple of tounaments in Africa, gana always does pretty good (most of the time winning by an emormous difference) but then when it comes to play againts NIGERIA they always lose in a really ugly way, so nigeria is the closest to thing to South africa right now
also the must let New zeland play for the chance to qualify if you wanna make this a fair thing, I mean, ok australians are ally good and all but WHY DO THEY ALWAYS AUTOMATICALLY QUALIFY FOR EVERyTHING ??? if the MLB wanna make things even more fair have autralia, and south africa in the next classic and make a qualifying round among NIGERIA, NEW ZELAND, and GHANA, for the other spot in the region.
then, places like GUAM, CURACAO,Netherlands Anilltes, Hong Kong, San Marino and AURBA shouldn't be allow to play cuz THEY ARE NOT COUNTRIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!! BTW Puerto Rico is a country (afilliated with the U.S. but still a country)
maybe if they include a country with cricket tradition and teach them the game, and train them with time (starting now would be ideal), in 2013 the may end up with a decent team, in the case of India for example they can combine their best crickets players with idians who play basaeball in the U.S
from my point of view, the new 8 countries added should be :
2-the winner of a qualifying round among: Colombia, Honduras, Costa rica, guatemala, brazil, ecuador, jamaica, Virgin Island and argentina
3- the second place of the qualifying round among: Colombia, Honduras, Costa rica, guatemala, brazil, ecuador, jamaica, Virgin Island and argentina
4 - Phillipines
6-the winner of a qualifying round among: sweden, Croatia, Austria, Spain(with only spaniard players not their cubans, dominicans, and venezuelan ones), France, Russia, Czerch Republic, and belgium
7-the second place of the qualifying round among: sweden, Spain, France, Russia, Czerch Republic, and belgium
Africa and Oceania and rest of the world:
8- the winner of a qualifying round among Thailand, Pakistan, NIGERIA, NEW ZELAND, and GHANA
the red countries would be my favorites to win each round and advence to the Wolrd baseball classic, the third spot has one countries in red cuz any one can pull up surprise there, especially Guatemala, even Colombia would be for sure
let me now what you'll think
PLZ fell ya'll free to make any comment or suggestion 'bout it
Last edited by lewis; 04-04-2009 at 07:34 PM.
The international baseball community is a rather small one. There are not very many outlets for international baseball fans to discuss the game. We here in the international forum like to share ideas and discuss different topics in a polite and respectful way. You don't have to agree with the things you read on here, but in the very least be respectful.
I'll just agree to disagree with spark on the issues we've been discussing and we just move on from there.
So Unit, give us your (absolutely random) predictions for 2013.
Having checked, it looks like San Marino won the European Cup in 2006 and the Serie A1 (Italian pro league) title just last year.
Now, if the Most Serene Republic gets a WBC entry, shall they be allowed Sammarinese-heritage players?
Last edited by Pere; 04-05-2009 at 05:32 PM.
My bad, I was basing it off an article about the first World Baseball Classic that I read online where this problem was addressed.....blame the author of that, not me! lol
Edit- It was based off the press conference they had before the 2009 WBC when the issue of citizenship came up and I believe it was Harvey Schiller who replied that if each countries eligibilty rules were used then Manny Ramirez and other Dominican players would not be eligible for the Dominican Republic whereas Mike Piazza would be able to represent Italy, so because it wasn't equal for each country they tweaked things a little bit
Just one tiny point, I have girly bits and so don't qualify as a 'dude'.....lol
Last edited by Sweet_Bokke; 04-06-2009 at 03:30 AM.
South Africa Baseball-
Baseball World Cup- 9th (1974), 15th (1998), 14th (2001), 17th (2005), 15th (2007)
All-Africa Games- CHAMPIONS (1999 & 2003)
Olympic Baseball- 8th (2000)
World Baseball Classic- 16th (2006), 16th (2009)
hey no problem gal, every1 makes mistake, I meanOriginally Posted by Sweet_Bokke
I didn't know San maricno was a country LOL
oh well, sorry about that sweetyOriginally Posted by Sweet_Bokke
Okay, gettin the thread away from the dull technicalities of eligibility..........
The next WBC seems set to have preliminary rounds, then a first round, then a second round and the semi-finals and final, all involving 24 teams. But there is another possible format for 24 teams which could see a shorter tournament (and hence less chance of injury - which might make the clubs less inclined to oppose player participation):
Have all 24 teams play in a first round in eight pools of 3 teams. Have the second round teams from this WBC all be placed in a separate pool (effectively seeding them).
So these are just rough groupings and they could probably be better organized for travel arrangements and hosts, but it could be something like this:
Pool 1 - in Japan
Pool 2 - in South Korea
Pool 3 - in Dominican Republic
Pool 4 - in Mexico
Pool 5 - in Puerto Rico
Pool 6 - in Toronto
Pool 7 - in Cuba
Pool 8 - in Venezuela
The hosts in each pool will play 2 games and since crowds tend to turn-out to watch their home teams then it would mean at least 2 out of every 3 games should have a decent turn-out.
The top team from each pool advances to the quarterfinals/second round and from there to the semi-finals and final (in Los Angeles, Anaheim and/or Phoenix and Miami). If they made the second round a straight knockout like the semi-finals and final then that could free up even more time.
If the second round teams from 2009 are seeded into different pools then it would likely become an effective double-elimination format (any team that loses two matches will obviously finish bottom of the group and hence be eliminated and it would be unlikely that each team would win 1 game apiece in any of the pools - but if they did they could use statistics to separate them or playoffs).
The tournament is awfully short as it is. If it gets any shorter I'm going to lose a lot of interest.
I've got a lot of thoughts after sifting through 7 pages on this.
Now that baseball & softball are out of the Olympics, we can lock in to every 3 or 4 years without interfering because I don't think baseball is coming back for 2016.
That being said, I'd like to see a qualifying tournament and then a 16 team final tournament. Trying to bang through a 24 team round robin to double elimination is just silly during Spring Training. I think we're trying to shoe horn in too many games.
I would love to see qualifying done similarly to the FIFA World Cup. Each region runs a qualifying tournament in the run-up to the finals for a set number of qualifying births.
North America - 4 births
South America - 3 births
Europe - 3 births
Asia - 3 births
Africa/Euroasia - 3 births
For team eligibility, I'm fine with traditional allegiances (ie: Great Britain, T & T, etc), but we need to normalize foreign birth eligibility. Technically, I'm eligible to play for Ireland since my grandmother was born in Dublin. But my neighbor, Tony can play for Italy since like a million years ago he had a male relative from Palermo or whatever.
You run the qualifying tournament one year before the finals and each region hosts their regional tournament (duh?). The qualifying tournament is a double elimination best of 3 (or best of 5) format. This gives us more games with equitable match-ups. I'd rather see Ireland play a really strong 3 game set against the UK than get blitzed in a round robin game against Cuba.
And with Europe hosting the qualifier, the TV coverage wouldn't be at What the Hell O'Clock in the morning. SkySport or NASN can bring the games live in prime time. That, I think is the best way to help grow the sport overseas. Particularly if a new baseball country like Israel (traditionally a basketball and soccer country) can field a competitive team, broadcast games live in prime time and then show well in the finals.
The real problem with running a good tournament is that we're used to a 7 game set in playoffs, and that's just not manageable in this format. A best of 3 16-team single elimination format would run just over two weeks. And that I think is perfect. Any more than that, and people are losing interest, any less than that, and it's who's getting lucky in a one-and-done.
But regardless of format, we're going to need to start letting countries play into the Classic or its just not going to count.
Harold Norbert "Harry" Kalas (1936 - 2009)
Swing and a long drive. Watch that baby. Outta here, home run.