xFIP?! I laugh at you!
Exactly. I always ask this question, what is more impressive, A player that hits 35 HRs and leads the league or a player that hits 50 HRs and doesn't lead the league. Obviously, leading the league is more important.Originally Posted by westsidegrounds
Registered User
Delgado's got something approaching a HOF resume so far, but given his era, his lack of noteriety, and the fact that his game is relatively one-dimensional, he needs about three more prime-performance years to be a lock. Alternately, he could scuffle along for 7 years and limp to 500 HR.
The probablility of one of the two scenarios happening is about 50%. So we'll see.
Greek God of Baseball
Um, no, not at all, in any way whatsoever. Fred McGriff was pretty good in 1989 and 1991. Mickey Mantle was awesome in 1931. Sometimes, being the best in the league just means that you're playing in a poor league.
"Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."
Sean McAdam, ESPN.com
History Mod
--Mantle might have been awesome at pooping his diaper in 1931, but I'm not sure how that pertains to this discussion.
Greek God of Baseball
Wow, 1961. I'm a complete idiot.
"Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."
Sean McAdam, ESPN.com
xFIP?! I laugh at you!
Sorry ElHalo, but you are 100% wrong. Wasn't Mickey playing in a poor league in 1961 with expansion? And he didn't lead the league in HRs that season. McGriff led the league in HRs twice (36 HRs in 1989 AL and 35 in 1992 NL) I was refering to league leading stats. Here are the HRs/G averages:
1961 AL averaged 1.89 HRs/G
1989 AL averaged 1.52 HRs/G
1992 NL averaged 1.30 HRs/G
There were 24.8% more HRs/G hit in 1961 than 1989. There were 45.8% more HRs/G hit in 1961 than in the NL 1992. This is my issue with Delgado. He is usually amongst the leaders but never actually leads the league. As I said hitting 35 HRs and leading the league is more impressive than hitting 50 HRs and not leading the league because the 35 HR guy is the top HR hitter of that season. The 50 HR guy may have hit his 50 HRs in a season when the leaders were hitting 65-70 HRs (i.e. Greg Vaughn hit 50 HRs in '98, way behind McGwire and Sosa).
Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 12-09-2005 at 08:25 AM.
Registered User
I hate when you guys make me crack up out loud at work!
Greek God of Baseball
Weaker than 1960, sure. Weaker than 1989? Are you kidding me?
And, yes, coming in second when somebody else is having a historic season is a lot more impressive than coming in first when everybody else is mediocre. Pretty simple logic.
Not that I'm disagreeing with you on Delgado; guy doesn't really impress me all that much.
"Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."
Sean McAdam, ESPN.com
xFIP?! I laugh at you!
I guess we will always disagree on this one.
I guess we agree on this one.Not that I'm disagreeing with you on Delgado; guy doesn't really impress me all that much.
Pedrophile/Food Metaphor
Does looking exactly like Pedro Cerrano from Major League count for anything?
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD
In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die
xFIP?! I laugh at you!
"Hats for bats. Keep bats warm...Gracias"
"It would be berry bad to drink Jobu's rum...Berry bad."
"Jesus. I like him very much. But he no help with curveball."
Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 12-09-2005 at 10:12 AM.
Prophet of Rage
I don't rate Delgado over McGriff, but with 3 or 4 more good years I might.
Right now I have Raffy a few spots ahead, but that'll disappear very soon.Raffy: ditto for McGriff and the steroids.
Agreed. I'm sick of people touting Pujols as a top 20 1B (I've seen him as high as 3rd). We still have to wait on him.Pujols hasn't played long enough.
Steroids, anyone? Also, Delgado has played in tougher hitting parks against slightly tougher competition. Thome has also never been the best hitter in his league, while Delgado probably was in 2000 and 2003. Thome has only won one Silver Slugger Award (at third base), while Delgado has won three, and they were competing for the award almost every year.On what grounds could you possibly have for ranking him higher than Thome?
Registered User
I've never heard any allegations connecting Thome with steroids. Dude's clean until there's some serious reason to think otherwise.
Prophet of Rage
With the horrible season Thome had (particularly his decrease in slugging numbers) the year after sterioid testing started, you have to suspect something. How do you explain a 229 point drop in SLG%?
I suppose I don't have any evidence, but there's good reason to suspect Thome.
xFIP?! I laugh at you!
Chris,
This statement is illogical. You have NO EVIDENCE, but there's good reason to suspect Thome? That's doesn't even make sense. Thome has had back problems for years, going back to his Cleveland days. He's now in his mid 30s so he's having more acute back problems. Plus he's the type of hitter that usually doesn't age well on top of that.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Have you heard of aging and/or injuries? The man looks the same as when he came to Philly. If that's all you've got to support your suspicions, give me and Thome a break. It was obvious last season when Thome threw there was something wrong with his arm (elbow), and there were times he walked like he needed a cane with that back of his. It's amazing he did anything with the injuries he had last year (try doing anything with a pulled back muscle, much less a vigorous swing of a baseball bat, and you'll know what I mean A pulled back muscle is actually a much more minor problem than Thome had,). It's hardly unique for a professional athlete in his mid 30s (like Thome) or beyond to have a year like that, often on the way out of the game. Sometimes a guy like that rallies and has a few good ones, sometimes he continues with the physical ills and leaves the game. In any event, I think we know that Thome's back and/or elbow will be what drives him out of the game when that time comes.
Jim Albright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Two thoughts:
1. HWR and JA are right. To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a bad back is just a bad back.
2. This is a perfect example of one of the many pernicious effects of steroid use in baseball, and why it must be eradicated for the good of the game. The innocent are unjustly tainted right along with the guilty.
Pedrophile/Food Metaphor
Cougar,
You are absolutely correct.
Another phenomenon that I have seemed to notice is that sometimes people use the steroid suspicion, in order to justify beliefs they want to hold.
For some reason, there's a considerable group of people who don't want to admit how good some of the recent generation of players has been. I have a friend in particular who for some reason just doesn't want to acknowledge Jeff Bagwell as the 3rd of 4th best 1B of all time. Perhaps knowing you've seen guys who rank so high ruins some of the mystique of the legends from yesteryear who you never got to see.
Anyway, he insists that Bagwell was a user. Okay, maybe he was... Maybe Walt Weiss was... The point is that this guy is using the venear of steroid suspicion to enable him to write off something he just doesn't want to believe.
Other than the guys who have failed test or were named in the Balco scandal you can't really view your suspicions with any credibility.
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD
In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die
carpe baseball
Reading about one of the recent trades made me realize:
Sean Casey is a 3-time all-star.
Carlos Delgado is a 2-time all-star.
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
Registered User
Hence, until someone's an all-star 5 or 6 times or so, it's foolhardy to take it seriously as a major plus for a HOF resume.
And, at the same time, a dearth of ASG appearances ought not to be disqualifying in itself.
Reading about one of the recent trades made me realize:
Sean Casey is a 3-time all-star.
Carlos Delgado is a 2-time all-star.
Sunday, May 14, 1978
He's 34 and in his 14th season. I would like to get some thoughts on his career thus far and if possible some insight on where you think his career totals will end up? I know this calls for a lot of speculation. So I'll be the first to throw some projections out there.
I think he could very well end up with
Games 2410
At-Bats 8506
Runs 1492
Hits 2415
Doubles 590
Triples 21
Home Runs 567
RBI's 1804
Stolen Bases 13
Walks 1383
AVG .280
OBP .385
SLG .550
The Youth of BBF ^
Yes, he may very well reach the 500 homer mark, and definetly the 1,500 rbi mark although only making two all star appearences!!!. Maybe 2-3 more 30/100/.290 like seasons.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. -Rogers Hornsby
KJ
Add a 3rd All-Star Appearance , He's making The NL All-Star Team as a Backup 1st Basemen to Pujols .Yes, he may very well reach the 500 homer mark, and definetly the 1,500 rbi mark although only making two all star appearences!!!
Registered User
I always thought he was quietly amassing very good numbers, but I wasn't sure he would have the longevity to get his counting stats up.
But his early season production this year is very encouraging that he's got some life left in him yet. I think he's got a reasonable shot.
It's good to be back
How do you figure that? It's too early to decide or even deduce.
Last season, for about 2 weeks, the 1B leader for the AL was...Tino Martinez, then he went on a cold streak and did not make it.
Cristobal
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