Lindy McDaniel

[Cowtipper]

All this discussion about guys like McGraw, Lyle and Hiller got me thinking about another one: Lindy McDaniel.

McDaniel played 21 years in the big leagues, going 141-119 with a 3.45 ERA. In 987 games, he had 172 career saves. He led the league in saves three times, WL% once, and games finished once. In fact, his 577 games finished place him at 17th most all-time.

McDaniel was an All-Star once. He is statistically similar to Hoyt Wilhelm and Rich Gossage, as well as Ron Reed, Tom Gordon, Stu Miller, Derek Lowe, Jerry Staley, Dave Giusti, Bob Stanley and Firpo Marberry. The Baseball Page ranks him as the 41st best reliever of all time, and he received votes for the Hall of Fame in 1981 and 1982.

So, should Lindy McDaniel be in the Hall of Fame?

[Brad Harris]

No. The 41st best reliever of all-time should not be elected.

[Fielding Marshall]

I would put him behind Stu Miller and Ron Perranoski, though I really don't know quite how to judge the early relievers. McDaniel...I'm not sure. Let's see some discussion.

[Fielding Marshall]

As a matter of fact, how to judge '60's and '70's era relievers has been a recurring question of mine.

[Fielding Marshall]

No. The 41st best reliever of all-time should not be elected.

As based upon one particular ranking. The stats of '60's and '70's era relievers (minus some spectacular seasons) were generally rather underwhelming compared to the relievers that were to come, in large part because they were used more. Again, I like Miller and Perranoski among uninducted relievers (and like Hiller as well), but really don't know what qualifies as Hall-worthy in that era.

[Freakshow]

Pitchers with lowest OPS+ Allowed, 1956-, relieved in 69%+ of total games, 150+ Games Finished, debuting 1971 or earlier, 900+ IP

  Cnt Player            OPS+ ERA+  WHIP  GF DbYr   IP   From  To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+---+----+------+----+----+
    1 Hoyt Wilhelm        66  147 1.080 536 1952 1735.2 1956 1972 
    2 Roy Face            80  117 1.208 540 1953 1130.1 1956 1969 
    3 John Hiller         83  134 1.268 363 1965 1242   1965 1980 
    4 Rollie Fingers      84  119 1.156 709 1968 1701.1 1968 1985 
    5 Don McMahon         84  119 1.246 506 1957 1310.2 1957 1974 
    6 Stu Miller          84  121 1.225 387 1952 1421.2 1956 1968 
    7 Sparky Lyle         87  127 1.275 634 1967 1390.1 1967 1982 
    8 Dick Hall           87  111 1.088 235 1952 1165.1 1956 1971 
    9 Al Worthington      87  108 1.299 309 1953 1126.2 1956 1969 
   10 Gene Garber         88  116 1.264 609 1969 1510   1969 1988 
   11 Terry Forster       88  115 1.349 318 1971 1105.2 1971 1986 
   12 Tug McGraw          88  116 1.254 541 1965 1514.2 1965 1984 
   13 Ron Reed            88  108 1.214 300 1966 2477.2 1966 1984 
   14 Ted Abernathy       88  115 1.360 404 1955 1028.1 1956 1972 
   15 Mike Marshall       89  118 1.294 549 1967 1386.2 1967 1981 
   16 Clay Carroll        89  121 1.284 373 1964 1353.1 1964 1978 
   17 Jim Brewer          90  111 1.209 351 1960 1040.2 1960 1976 
   18 Lindy McDaniel      90  110 1.270 575 1955 2120.1 1956 1975 
   19 Ron Perranoski      90  123 1.332 458 1961 1174.2 1961 1973 
   20 Pete Richert        93  106 1.186 161 1962 1165.2 1962 1974 
   21 Al McBean           93  110 1.327 186 1961 1072.1 1961 1970 
   22 Eddie Fisher        94  101 1.193 344 1959 1538.2 1959 1973 
   23 Tom Burgmeier       95  118 1.283 370 1968 1258.2 1968 1984 
   24 Dave LaRoche        95  105 1.313 381 1970 1049.1 1970 1983 
   25 Grant Jackson       97  105 1.312 291 1965 1358.2 1965 1982

[Los Bravos]

Lots of quality arms on that list, most of which aren't remembered as well, or credited as much, as they should be.

[jjpm74]

Only the very best relievers deserve serious HOF consideration. Lindy McDaniel, John Hiller, Kent Tekulve, Tome Henke, John Wetteland, Tug McGraw, Firpo Marberry, et.al. were solid closers/firemen but none of them belong in the HOF.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I voted "maybe". I'm pretty much a "no", but McDaniel is an excellent example of a "fireman" (as opposed to a "closer").

McDaniel was a guy who could come into the game at any time. He could pitch any number of innings, and he could be brought in at "win situation" times, as well as "save situations". For this reason, I view relievers of his type to be superior to "closers", in that they are able to fill a broader role on the pitching staff.

It's somewhat logical to assume that the Lee Smiths and Trevor Hoffmans, guys who are presumptive HOFers in the eyes of many, were better pitchers than was McDaniel. This assertion is based on superior save totals. This would assume that these guys would have posted superior stats to McDaniel if they had been assigned McDaniel's role. If you don't agree that Hoffman and Smith (and others, perhaps) would have had stats superior to McDaniel if they had filled his (McDaniel's) role, then that begs the question of the value of McDaniel's role vs. the value of Hoffman's or Smith's role as a one-inning "closer".

I am not convinced that today's "closers" could have filled the roles that relievers of the 1960s and earlier filled. I tend to believe that the value of today's roles are overrated by the "save" statistic, and that the way today's relievers are used tend to mask their limitations. In addistion, the idea of "closing" out the ninth inning is somewhat overrated; at the end of the game, the opposing manager is more likely to have exhausted some of his potential lineup switches, options that are available in inning 7 or 8.

There must be a way to determing the value of a "fireman" reliever and measure it against today's "closer" reliever. I believe the older role required a better pitcher with a broader base of skills. I'm not advocating McDaniel for the HOF, but I think he could well have had a better career than Trevor Hoffman and Lee Smith.

[KCGHOST]

McDaniel was a somewhat above average pitcher who pitched a long time. Not a chance.

[THE OX]

I'm in full agreement with Fuzzy Bear that Lindy McDaniel was a fine "fireman" before this "closer" role evolved. And I wouldn't be at all disappointed to see him in the Hall of Fame.

Back when McDaniel was pitching, the "Save" was a far more meaningful and hard-to-obtain stat than it is now. Appearances of 2 or 3 innings as the finishing pitcher were not at all uncommon, and the "fireman" usually entered the game with runners on base and the starter laboring. The "closer" today usually pitches only the final inning, and usually starts the inning with no outs and nobody on base.

Lindy McDaniel's 172 Saves would probably be more in the 300-400 range by today's standards for being awarded a Save, and if used as today's "closers" are, he might have close to 500.

With all these big (and IMO, rather meaningless) Save stats being compiled by today's "closers," the "firemen" of McDaniel's era get short shrift, but he was a fine "fireman" who had a long career as a quality relief pitcher!

Flame away............

[Yankwood]

Lindy McDaniel should not make the HOF even with that name on St. Patrick's Day.

[Paul Wendt]

I voted "maybe". I'm pretty much a "no", but McDaniel is an excellent example of a "fireman" (as opposed to a "closer").

McDaniel may be a good example of the kind but he isn't a very good pitcher of the kind, merely above average with unusual longevity.

Are his career rate statistics (such as ERA+ 109) mediocre because he played so long, ruining a very good record in his prime? No, at least according to ERA+ he never was reliably good.

[Freakshow]

Another look at the early firemen. Saves leaders, debuting 1964 or earlier

  Cnt Player             SV ERA+  WHIP  W    G  From  To
+----+-----------------+---+----+-----+---+----+----+----+
    1 Hoyt Wilhelm      227  146 1.125 143 1070 1952 1972 
    2 Roy Face          193  109 1.243 104  848 1953 1969 
    3 Ron Perranoski    179  123 1.332  79  737 1961 1973 
    4 Lindy McDaniel    172  109 1.272 141  987 1955 1975 
    5 Stu Miller        154  115 1.253 105  704 1952 1968 
    6 Don McMahon       153  119 1.246  90  874 1957 1974 
    7 Ted Abernathy     148  106 1.396  63  681 1955 1972 
    8 Dave Giusti       145   95 1.296 100  668 1962 1977 
    9 Clay Carroll      143  121 1.284  96  731 1964 1978 
   10 Jim Brewer        132  111 1.209  69  584 1960 1976 
   11 Jack Aker         123  105 1.277  47  495 1964 1974 
   12 Dick Radatz       122  122 1.194  52  381 1962 1969 
   13 Frank Linzy       111  123 1.313  62  516 1963 1974 
   14 Al Worthington    110  110 1.329  75  602 1953 1969 
   15 Fred Gladding     109  113 1.313  48  450 1961 1973 
   16 Ron Kline         108  101 1.369 114  736 1952 1970 
   17 Johnny Murphy     107  117 1.367  93  415 1932 1947 
   18 John Wyatt        103  108 1.376  42  435 1961 1969 
   19 Ellis Kinder      102  124 1.325  10  484 1946 1957 
   20 Firpo Marberry    101  116 1.323 148  551 1923 1936 
   21 Joe Hoerner        99  120 1.244  39  493 1963 1977 
   22 Clem Labine        96  112 1.333  77  513 1950 1962 
   23 Phil Regan         92   97 1.340  96  551 1960 1972 
   24 Bill Henry         90  119 1.246  46  527 1952 1969 
   25 Ken Sanders        86  118 1.252  29  408 1964 1976

[Freakshow]

BB-Ref has added 1954-55 to their database. Here's a revised chart from #6. Bobby Shantz joins the list.

Pitchers with lowest OPS+ Allowed, 1954-, relieved in 69%+ of total games, 150+ Games Finished, debuting 1971 or earlier, 900+ IP

  Cnt Player            OPS+ ERA+  WHIP  GF DbYr   IP   From  To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+---+----+------+----+----+
    1 Hoyt Wilhelm        65  146 1.101 580 1952 1950   1954 1972 
    2 Roy Face            79  117 1.221 561 1953 1256   1955 1969 
    3 Dick Hall           82  111 1.102 237 1952 1259.2 1955 1971 
    4 John Hiller         83  134 1.268 363 1965 1242   1965 1980 
    5 Rollie Fingers      84  119 1.156 709 1968 1701.1 1968 1985 
    6 Don McMahon         84  119 1.246 506 1957 1310.2 1957 1974 
    7 Stu Miller          85  118 1.243 395 1952 1468.1 1954 1968 
    8 Bobby Shantz        86  120 1.215 165 1949 1003.1 1954 1964 
    9 Sparky Lyle         87  127 1.275 634 1967 1390.1 1967 1982 
   10 Al Worthington      87  108 1.310 312 1953 1144.2 1954 1969 
   11 Gene Garber         88  116 1.264 609 1969 1510   1969 1988 
   12 Terry Forster       88  115 1.349 318 1971 1105.2 1971 1986 
   13 Tug McGraw          88  116 1.254 541 1965 1514.2 1965 1984 
   14 Ron Reed            88  108 1.214 300 1966 2477.2 1966 1984 
   15 Mike Marshall       89  118 1.294 549 1967 1386.2 1967 1981 
   16 Clay Carroll        89  121 1.284 373 1964 1353.1 1964 1978 
   17 Lindy McDaniel      89  109 1.272 577 1955 2139.1 1955 1975 
   18 Jim Brewer          90  111 1.209 351 1960 1040.2 1960 1976 
   19 Ron Perranoski      90  123 1.332 458 1961 1174.2 1961 1973 
   20 Ted Abernathy       92  106 1.396 416 1955 1147.2 1955 1972 
   21 Pete Richert        93  106 1.186 161 1962 1165.2 1962 1974 
   22 Eddie Fisher        94  101 1.193 344 1959 1538.2 1959 1973 
   23 Al McBean           94  110 1.327 186 1961 1072.1 1961 1970 
   24 Tom Burgmeier       95  118 1.283 370 1968 1258.2 1968 1984 
   25 Dave LaRoche        95  105 1.313 381 1970 1049.1 1970 1983 
   26 Grant Jackson       97  105 1.312 291 1965 1358.2 1965 1982

[Brad Harris]

Lindy McDaniel should not make the HOF even with that name on St. Patrick's Day.

Don't worry, he won't; the Veterans Committee doesn't vote on St. Patrick's Day.

[jalbright]

Don't worry, he won't; the Veterans Committee doesn't vote on St. Patrick's Day.

You sure? Some VC votes could be more more easily explained if excessive amounts of alcohol were involved.

[RuthMayBond]

No. The 41st best reliever of all-time should not be elected.

Cool, I think that's about where I have him

[Fuzzy Bear]

I would also mention that Lindy McDaniel was picked up by the 1968 Yankees and was a major factor in their second half surge which enabled them to finish over .500 and in the first division (5th place) for the 1st time since 1964.

[Steven Gallanter]

I would also mention that Lindy McDaniel was picked up by the 1968 Yankees and was a major factor in their second half surge which enabled them to finish over .500 and in the first division (5th place) for the 1st time since 1964.

I remember that! He also was very religious. McDaniel and Jack Aker formed a fine 'pen for the post-Mantle, pre-Steinbrenner Yankees. Yes, Lindy was a fireman and a very good one but not a HOFer like Hoyt Wilhelm.

[dgarza]

Maybe, but just misses really.

He fits into my Top 25 relievers.

1600+ IPs in relief. That is pretty high. 3.13 ERA in relief. Not sure what his ERA+ would be in relief, but I'm guessing something like 118 ERA+, at close to 1700 IPs. Anyone know who the top pitchers in relief innings are?

[Freakshow]

Anyone know who the top pitchers in relief innings are?

1871.1 Hoyt Wilhelm
1694.2 Lindy McDaniel
1556.2 Rich Gossage
1505.2 Rollie Fingers
1452.2 Gene Garber
1436.2 Kent Tekulve
1390.1 Sparky Lyle
1301.1 Tug McGraw
1297.0 Don McMahon
1277.0 Jesse Orosco
1259.1 Mike Marshall
1252.1 Lee Smith

[dgarza]

1871.1 Hoyt Wilhelm
1694.2 Lindy McDaniel
1556.2 Rich Gossage
1505.2 Rollie Fingers
1452.2 Gene Garber
1436.2 Kent Tekulve
1390.1 Sparky Lyle
1301.1 Tug McGraw
1297.0 Don McMahon
1277.0 Jesse Orosco
1259.1 Mike Marshall
1252.1 Lee Smith

Thanks.

Wow, seems like a sizable drop off after Lyle....

[Fuzzy Bear]

Relief Pitcher JAWS Leaders
JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score system) was developed by sabermetrician Jay Jaffe as a means to measure a player's Hall of Fame worthiness. A player's JAWS is their career WAR averaged with their 7-year peak WAR. Note that only batting or pitching WAR are used in detmining the averages at a given position. The current Hall of Famers are then grouped by position and a position average JAWS is computed.

Lindy McDaniel is 13th on the list on JAWS.

• Rk WAR WAR7 JAWS Yrs From To ASG W L W-L% ERA ERA+ G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF
  1 Dennis Eckersley HOF 58.4 35.7 47.1 24 1975 1998 6 197 171 .535 3.50 116 1071 361 577 100 20 390 3285.2 3076 1382 1278 347 738 91 2401 75 16 28 13534
  2 Mariano Rivera 52.7 27.9 40.3 18 1995 2012 12 76 58 .567 2.21 206 1051 10 892 0 0 608 1219.2 940 324 300 65 277 38 1119 45 3 13 4847
  3 Rich Gossage HOF 39.4 31.0 35.2 22 1972 1994 9 124 107 .537 3.01 126 1002 37 681 16 0 310 1809.1 1497 670 605 119 732 90 1502 47 5 63 7507
  4 Hoyt Wilhelm HOF 44.4 24.6 34.5 21 1952 1972 8 143 122 .540 2.52 147 1070 52 651 20 5 227 2254.1 1757 773 632 150 778 61 1610 62 4 90 9164
  Avg of 5 HOFers at this position 37.9 26.7 32.3
  5 Bobby Shantz 32.5 23.7 28.1 16 1949 1964 3 119 99 .546 3.38 119 537 171 192 78 15 48 1935.2 1795 817 726 151 643 53 1072 41 6 29 8045
  6 Tom Gordon 32.5 22.2 27.4 21 1988 2009 3 138 126 .523 3.96 113 890 203 347 18 4 158 2108.0 1889 1016 927 176 977 57 1928 38 5 112 9058
  7 John Hiller 29.0 25.7 27.4 15 1965 1980 1 87 76 .534 2.83 134 545 43 363 13 6 125 1242.0 1040 438 391 110 535 71 1036 12 1 39 5206
  8 Greg Swindell 28.5 24.3 26.4 17 1986 2002 1 123 122 .502 3.86 107 664 269 93 40 12 7 2233.1 2313 1053 957 262 501 34 1542 21 12 30 9301
  9 Firpo Marberry 27.4 23.9 25.6 14 1923 1936 0 148 88 .627 3.63 116 551 186 272 86 7 101 2067.1 2049 971 834 96 686 822 38 4 14 8759
  10 Ellis Kinder 27.3 23.4 25.3 12 1946 1957 0 102 71 .590 3.43 125 484 122 255 56 10 102 1479.2 1421 627 564 116 539 8 749 9 2 11 6302
  11 Kerry Wood 26.2 23.7 24.9 14 1998 2012 2 86 75 .534 3.67 117 446 178 138 11 5 63 1380.0 1083 599 563 148 666 22 1582 99 6 64 5863
  12 Turk Farrell 25.3 24.2 24.7 14 1956 1969 5 106 111 .488 3.45 104 590 134 301 41 5 83 1704.2 1628 737 653 152 468 82 1177 27 4 45 7099
  13 Lindy McDaniel 25.5 22.8 24.1 21 1955 1975 2 141 119 .542 3.45 110 987 74 577 18 2 172 2139.1 2099 934 821 172 623 136 1361 15 5 112 8971
  14 Stu Miller 25.3 22.5 23.9 16 1952 1968 2 105 103 .505 3.24 115 704 93 405 24 5 154 1693.1 1522 697 610 140 600 114 1164 39 3 25 7083
  15 Lee Smith 27.6 19.7 23.7 18 1980 1997 7 71 92 .436 3.03 132 1022 6 802 0 0 478 1289.1 1133 475 434 89 486 100 1251 10 4 47 5387
  16 Syl Johnson 26.0 21.1 23.5 19 1922 1940 0 112 117 .489 4.06 105 542 209 201 82 11 43 2165.2 2290 1099 977 172 488 920 48 3 22 9124
  17 Bruce Sutter HOF 23.1 23.7 23.4 12 1976 1988 6 68 71 .489 2.83 136 661 0 512 0 0 300 1042.0 879 370 328 77 309 83 861 13 8 37 4252
  18 Billy Wagner 26.9 19.3 23.1 16 1995 2010 7 47 40 .540 2.31 187 853 0 703 0 0 422 903.0 601 262 232 82 300 26 1196 33 1 43 3600
  19 Trevor Hoffman 27.0 18.8 22.9 18 1993 2010 7 61 75 .449 2.87 141 1035 0 856 0 0 601 1089.1 846 378 347 100 307 58 1133 9 0 49 4388
  20 Dan Quisenberry 23.9 21.8 22.9 12 1979 1990 3 56 46 .549 2.76 146 674 0 553 0 0 244 1043.1 1064 356