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Thread: “So, why are you so incensed that the Dodgers moved out of Brooklyn?”

  1. #161
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    In no way, shape, or form was I (nor am I) attempting to equate Moses and O'Malley. Walter was the bottom of the barrel, while Robert was merely the scum floating on the top.
    you can take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the DODGERS
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  2. #162
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    The Encyclopedia of New York notes that opposition in Bay Ridge was intense and that some 8,000 residents were displaced. The displacement mainly came from running I-278 through Brooklyn rather than along the shore. This book describes the opposition:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=q06...0Ridge&f=false

    That's significant, but it was hardly devastation. The foot of the bridge on the Brooklyn side is near Fort Hamilton, which was a military facility. In the Fort Hamilton entry, The Encyclopedia of New York describes how the civilian neighborhood near the fort catered to the military. In addition to churches, it featured "cheap saloons."

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by penncentralpete View Post
    This is a portion of the propaganda D'Antonio swallowed while "researching" his book. Letter dated 1946.
    It was after O'Malley was told how much it would cost to renovate Ebbets Field, that he decided that Ebbets was to old and decrepit to keep. By the way he was told that yes indeed, Ebbets could be enlarged and modernized.
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonypug View Post
    Ebbets could be enlarged and modernized.
    ...and if they enlarged the ballpark, Moses told O'Malley, he would give him all the help needed re-routing traffic, building new roads, etc.........but Walter could not be pleased.
    Last edited by Let's Go Mets!; 08-08-2009 at 10:01 AM.
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  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Let's Go Mets! View Post
    ...and if they enlarged the ballpark, Moses told O'Malley, he would give him all the help needed re-routing traffic, building new new roads, etc.........but Walter could not be pleased.
    Yes, Moses offerd the cities help in rerouting traffic and stadium access. Moses offered the Flushing Meadow site for a new ballpark, Moses also offered O'Malley other city owned property in exchange for Ebbets Field. So to say Moses did nothing to help save the Dodgers, is totally wrong. As Matha has repeated several times, what Moses didn't offer to do was break the law or do something to hurt the city. And odds are if O'Malley was offered what he wanted he would have changed the parameters, which he did several times as it was.
    Lets get Eddie Basinski elected to the Polish Sports Hall of Fame.
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  6. #166
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    As this discussion has progressed, there are so many things that are now clear that you have to be a blind person not to be able to see...

    1. Despite the ability of some within the renegade imposters playing on the left coast, the only person respoinsible for the theft of the Brooklyn franchise was Walter O'Malley. He was one of the few owners who would have pulled this garbage on his fans who had made him rich beyond comprehension. As a knee jerk reaction to the theft of the sucessful Brooklyn franchise and the unfortunate demise of the failing NY Giant franchise, the city attempted to bribe several owners such as Mr. Crosley in Cincinnati. Given the opportunity to increase their revenues behond comprehension, they chose to remain loyal to their fans. The threat of a rival league finally made mlb comes to its senses and award expansion franchises.

    2. Bob Moses, and no he was not a saint, chose not to break the law and bow to O'Malley's blackmail. Now many argue that Moses was all powerful and could have ignored the law, as he did repeatedly but to that I counter that a municipal official should not knowingly break the law, while a despicable person, at no time did Moses ever break the law in his other projects and that quite frankly Atlantic/Flatbush was not the right location given the changes occurring in America in 1957. Ebbedts Field could have lasted a bit longer. O'Malley never made an effort to trade Ebbets Field to the city for whatever consideration he could get (as he later was to do with Wrigley Field in Los Angeles). Moses' proposal to work with O'Malley to develop a ballpark at Flushing Meadows, scarcely what five or six miles from the artificial boundary between Brooklyn and Queens, would have been the perfect solution. And the terms of the lease have enabled the Mets to become the third richest franchise in baseball, far surpassing the Los Angeles National League baseball team. As far as Atlantic/Flatbush, as I have said so often, do a gooel search on Ratner, Bruce A. to see the difficulties inherent in that location.

    3. MLB was just as complicit and did nothing to protect the interests of the fans. The contempt shown by Ford Frick and Warren Giles to the Brooklyn fans was not appreciated, not only by them, but by fans across the nation who saw that it didn't matter how well you supported your team when there was money to be made.

    4. In retrospect, o'Malley had his eyes on LA from around 1953 on and made a final committment ot the thieves in the city government of LA in November 1956 upon the Dodgers return from their trip to Japan. Isn't it incredible that when Brooklyn unexpectedly came from behind to win the 1956 National League pennant, O'Malley was entertaining these slime balls in his private box and making arrangements..

    5. You can judge just how serious O'Malley was about Atlantic/Flatbush. One almost gets the feeling that he knew from the getgo this was not the right place but would take a shot anyway and if it was inevitably turned down, he would have an excuse for posterity.

    6. Ultimately the theft of the Brooklyn franchise ranks as one of the blackest moments in baseball history and played a role, the degree to which I cannot quantify, in the demise of baseball as the national pastime and the ascent of the NFL (the timeline shows that ocmpletely).

    7. Certainly LA and SF deserved major league franchises, I don't quarrel with that. But it should have been a failing franchise or an expansion franchise, not the biggest money maker in baseball. And even in 1957, contrary to what some people write or believe, the Dodgers were still the biggest money makers in baseball thanks to very lucrative radio and television deals and there wasn't the slightest chance in hell that these rights would not continue to be available to the Brooklyn Dodgers .

    All of these are points that have come up here, that have been made countless times but despite the clear evidence that everything above is true, there are still those who try to defend O'Malley. There can be no defense to what he did to baseball in general and the Brooklyn fans in particular all for the need for greed.

    Over and out.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonypug View Post
    Yes, Moses offerd the cities help in rerouting traffic and stadium access. Moses offered the Flushing Meadow site for a new ballpark, Moses also offered O'Malley other city owned property in exchange for Ebbets Field. So to say Moses did nothing to help save the Dodgers, is totally wrong. As Matha has repeated several times, what Moses didn't offer to do was break the law or do something to hurt the city. And odds are if O'Malley was offered what he wanted he would have changed the parameters, which he did several times as it was.
    According to Forever Blue, Moses also expected the Dodgers to pay for a large share of the Flushing Meadows stadium, which city would still own. The deal was not as good as it has been made out to be.
    Last edited by EdTarbusz; 08-08-2009 at 11:34 AM.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdTarbusz View Post
    According to True Blue, Moses also expected the Dodgers to pay for a large share of the Flushing Meadows stadium, which city would still own. The deal was not as good as it has been made out to be.
    Well that's O'Malley's side of the story (the book of course is filled with lots of lies and distortions of the truth as we all know)....but the two never got down to negotiating about it, now did they.....

  9. #169
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    Here's the press release announcing Dodger games in Jersey City. Sorry for the poor quality. In the bottom portion of the release, O'Malley actually speaks of "building in Queens".......
    Attached Images Attached Images
    you can take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the DODGERS
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  10. #170
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    Hm..

    Interesting O'Malley stating how the fans needed a stadium with adquate parking....yet the proposed Stadium had Atlantic/Flatbush had little provision for parking....but then again Flushing Meadow had more than ample parking....hm....talking out of both sides of his mouth...nah a true sportsman like Walter O'Malley wouldn't a thing like that, now would he?

  11. #171
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    O'Malley said the site at Atlantic Ave. could "get by" with parking for 2000 cars. The site in Queens would need 15000 spaces.
    you can take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the DODGERS
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  12. #172
    I have never seen any evidence, that O'Malley was ever asked to finance any part of a stadium in Queens. At various times O'Malley had said he would purchase bonds to build a Brooklyn Stadium but never any mention of any financing in Queens. The Dodgers like the Mets would have leased the Queens stadium and O'Malley wanted no part of that. He wanted to be given land, at "a reasonable price, and have improvements made to roadways at no cost to him, and he would build his own stadium." I have found "Forever Blue" to be more fiction then fact.
    Last edited by tonypug; 08-08-2009 at 05:51 PM.
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  13. #173
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    I don't even own a copy of "True Blue." I'm merely posting a press release from 1955.
    you can take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the DODGERS
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  14. #174
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    I believe that by the time the "Queens alternative" began to grow legs, Walter already had the sweetest deal in his back pocket from LA. Hence, all the blarney about the "Queens Dodgers", etc.
    you can take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the DODGERS
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  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATHA531 View Post
    Well that's O'Malley's side of the story (the book of course is filled with lots of lies and distortions of the truth as we all know)....but the two never got down to negotiating about it, now did they.....
    According to Forever Blue they did. Since the authour had access to O'Malley's papers I find this tough to outright dismiss.
    Last edited by EdTarbusz; 08-08-2009 at 11:36 AM.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATHA531 View Post
    Well that's O'Malley's side of the story (the book of course is filled with lots of lies and distortions of the truth as we all know)....but the two never got down to negotiating about it, now did they.....
    I just finished the book last night, and it left me shaking my head.

    I must say D'Antonio does an excellent job of hiding and distorting facts in his tribute to O'Malley. At times, the author reminds me of Johnny Cochoran defending OJ. There are so many examples of prejudice throughout the book, it's sickening.

    Basically, "Forever Blue" is nothing more then a disingenuous attempt to paint Robert Moses cold and indifferent, as the Commissioner continually tries to "sabotage" fun loving, humanitarian, Walter O'Malley's plan for a better Brooklyn.

    D'Antonio's homage to this cunning, greedy man might be able to fool some people, but he'll never fool anyone who lived here at the time. It's obvious the book was written only to purge O'Malley of his sins and terrible reputation.

    So the question must be asked again, Mr. D'Antonio.......

    What's next, a Walter O'Malley coloring book for kids?
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  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATHA531 View Post
    Hm..

    Interesting O'Malley stating how the fans needed a stadium with adquate parking....yet the proposed Stadium had Atlantic/Flatbush had little provision for parking....but then again Flushing Meadow had more than ample parking....hm....talking out of both sides of his mouth...nah a true sportsman like Walter O'Malley wouldn't a thing like that, now would he?
    According to Neil Sullivan. part of the Atlantic Flatbush proposal was a parking garage, which was the only part of the proposal that Moses had any enthusiasm about.

  18. #178
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    And how pray tell were the many Long Islanders interested in polluting the air a la LA with their internal combustion engines going to drive to this wonderful ballpark....the nearest highway, the BQE is about 1.5 miles away through city streets and is a parking lot every evening when the customers would be heading for the ballpark. Since Ed, you're not from Brooklyn, you would have no way of knowing how difficult accessing the location would be by automobile (all part of the distortions throughout the book) in its effort to portray O'Malley as the good guy......

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATHA531 View Post
    And how pray tell were the many Long Islanders interested in polluting the air a la LA with their internal combustion engines going to drive to this wonderful ballpark....the nearest highway, the BQE is about 1.5 miles away through city streets and is a parking lot every evening when the customers would be heading for the ballpark. Since Ed, you're not from Brooklyn, you would have no way of knowing how difficult accessing the location would be by automobile (all part of the distortions throughout the book) in its effort to portray O'Malley as the good guy......
    O'Malley obviously knew that, because he was counting on fans to use the LIRR to come to his new park.

    Having to drive 1.5 miles thhrough the city to the nearest highway doesn't sound like a real ordeal to me though. If a night game started around eight, would the BQE still be jammed?

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdTarbusz View Post
    O'Malley obviously knew that, because he was counting on fans to use the LIRR to come to his new park.

    Having to drive 1.5 miles thhrough the city to the nearest highway doesn't sound like a real ordeal to me though. If a night game started around eight, would the BQE still be jammed?
    Trust me Ed on this one...I've done it without any ballpark traffic, obviously. It is no picnic........

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