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Thread: Iron Triangle/Willets Point Demolition/Redevelopment

  1. #26
    400 million has been allocated for property purchases and relocations and highway improvements.

    This 400 million is in the scope of a 60 BILLION dollar budget and represents a fraction of the dollars allocated to long term investments in creating jobs and improving the lifestyle of citizens. This is a very important line item in that it is what becomes the engine of future growth in revenues and jobs. It is a prudent investment in the City's future.

    That said, most of the property acquisition/relocation expense will be recouped from the developer. The jobs and tax revenue created will more than cover any expenditure in this long term investment.

  2. #27
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    No matter what fight people put up this plan will significantly benefit the City and the borough of Queens.
    "You're killin' me Smalls!"

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    Just because some people don't have the imagination to be able to go more than 20 feet to a bar or restaurant after a ballgame doesn't mean $3 Billion needs to be spent to help them out.

    If you think this development is all about having a bar to go to after a ball game you are truly delirious. True that that is a major benefit of Mets fans visiting the area but there are countless benefits that have already been laid out here and ignored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    Queens and Manhattan have plenty of bars. Walk to Flushing; take a 20 minute subway ride to Manhattan; the City is your oyster.

    Just because some people don't have the imagination to be able to go more than 20 feet to a bar or restaurant after a ballgame doesn't mean $3 Billion needs to be spent to help them out.

    And don't fool yourself: one way or another the public usually foots the bill for the bulk of these initiatives.
    You really aren't getting it.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYMets523 View Post
    You really aren't getting it.
    No he really isn't.
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  6. #31
    that is someone who has never experienced a real baseball neighborhood like exists in many other places.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggieSmalls View Post
    If you think this development is all about having a bar to go to after a ball game you are truly delirious. True that that is a major benefit of Mets fans visiting the area but there are countless benefits that have already been laid out here and ignored.
    They haven't been ignored. Fred Wilpon will realize an enormous benefit.

    As for housing and commerce in the City, the citizens would have a more immediate and cost effective impact if the money is funneled into areas that don't require landfill, complete installation of sewer lines and other infrastructure; that way the infusion of cash could get to work fueling business immediately without a long and costly process of making unusable land usable.

    Let's not forget that the only reason Shea Stadium never got a dome was because it would have sunk into the swamp from the weight if it had.

    Almost anyplace else in the City would benefit more from this sort of infusion of cash.

    But as stated, in an environment where police, firemen and teachers are being cut, it's crazy to spend one penny on this type of development.


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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggieSmalls View Post
    400 million has been allocated for property purchases and relocations and highway improvements.

    This 400 million is in the scope of a 60 BILLION dollar budget and represents a fraction of the dollars allocated to long term investments in creating jobs and improving the lifestyle of citizens. This is a very important line item in that it is what becomes the engine of future growth in revenues and jobs. It is a prudent investment in the City's future.

    That said, most of the property acquisition/relocation expense will be recouped from the developer. The jobs and tax revenue created will more than cover any expenditure in this long term investment.
    400 million dollars would pay for a lot of policemen, firemen and teachers.

    Creation of jobs? These jobs are being eliminated because the City is crying poverty, but they still have hundreds of millions of dollars to give to real estate developers for an insane project like this???

    This allocation of money represents a loss of the kind of jobs the City needs most.

    I'd prefer to see the jobs of the policemen firemen and teachers retained, thank you very much. I think saving these jobs will improve the lifestyle of citizens more than a glossy Potempkin village across the street from the sham Ebbets Field.

    We've been hearing about the supposed benefits of all these real estate boondoggles for years now, and the City seems to have less money than ever. After spending a lifetime in this City I've come to the conclusion that these big projects are the bunk, and those who talk about "engines of future growth in revenues and jobs" while draining hundreds of millions from the public treasury are scoundrels.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    Let's not forget that the only reason Shea Stadium never got a dome was because it would have sunk into the swamp from the weight if it had.
    And because Shea was an old, outdated stadium and adding a dome to it would have been dumb. It was much more practical to build a new stadium.

    But as stated, in an environment where police, firemen and teachers are being cut, it's crazy to spend one penny on this type of development.
    What is it with you and policemen, firemen, and teachers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    400 million dollars would pay for a lot of policemen, firemen and teachers.
    Why don't we just give all $60 billion to policemen, firemen, and teachers?

    You fail to realize that there are more occupations than policemen, firemen, and teachers. Why aren't you worried about other jobs?

    Creation of jobs? These jobs are being eliminated because the City is crying poverty, but they still have hundreds of millions of dollars to give to real estate developers for an insane project like this???
    How is creating new business not creating new jobs?

    This allocation of money represents a loss of the kind of jobs the City needs most.
    The city needs to worry about more jobs than just the ones you keep regurgitating.

    I'd prefer to see the jobs of the policemen firemen and teachers retained, thank you very much. I think saving these jobs will improve the lifestyle of citizens more than a glossy Potempkin village across the street from the sham Ebbets Field.

    We've been hearing about the supposed benefits of all these real estate boondoggles for years now, and the City seems to have less money than ever. After spending a lifetime in this City I've come to the conclusion that these big projects are the bunk, and those who talk about "engines of future growth in revenues and jobs" while draining hundreds of millions from the public treasury are scoundrels.
    I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you anymore. It's not going anywhere. You keep spewing the same lines over and over: "Wilpon is greedy, developing the slums around Citi Field is a waste of money, the only jobs that matter are policemen, firemen, and teachers."

    You're being very narrow-minded and obstinate on the issue.
    "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

    "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

    "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

  10. #35
    Its the same old tired arguments.

    To equate investing a small fraction of the city's budget in a long term project that will create tens of thousands of jobs with losing jobs for "policemen, firemen and teachers" is just laughable.

    There will be more teacher jobs when this project is complete

    There will be more police and fireman jobs when this project is complete.

    There will be tens of thousand of construction jobs created during the project.

    There will be thousands of full time jobs created in the devlopment zone/

    Most of the existing jobs in the zone will be relocated to more appropriate areas.

    Those who are not relocated will be retrained as part of the plan.

    New Yorkers will receive over 5,000 new housing units including up to 40% for low income.

    The city will get a new convention center and hotel complex that will bring hundreds of millions in new revenue into the city's coffers.

    A historically polluted and blighted area that is an embarassment to this city and country will be cleaned up.

    This plan is a win win.

    All the opposition can do is focus on short term challenges in the economy that are really unaffected by this development.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggieSmalls View Post
    Its the same old tired arguments.

    To equate investing a small fraction of the city's budget in a long term project that will create tens of thousands of jobs with losing jobs for "policemen, firemen and teachers" is just laughable.

    There will be more teacher jobs when this project is complete

    There will be more police and fireman jobs when this project is complete.

    There will be tens of thousand of construction jobs created during the project.

    There will be thousands of full time jobs created in the devlopment zone/

    Most of the existing jobs in the zone will be relocated to more appropriate areas.

    Those who are not relocated will be retrained as part of the plan.

    New Yorkers will receive over 5,000 new housing units including up to 40% for low income.

    The city will get a new convention center and hotel complex that will bring hundreds of millions in new revenue into the city's coffers.

    A historically polluted and blighted area that is an embarassment to this city and country will be cleaned up.

    This plan is a win win.

    All the opposition can do is focus on short term challenges in the economy that are really unaffected by this development.
    I don't think he realizes that BY THE TIME THIS PROJECT IS SAID AND DONE WITH WE WILL BE OUT OF THE RECESSION. This can't go on forever. The economy will be better by the time this is done.
    "You're killin' me Smalls!"

  12. #37
    He also fails to realize that

    1. New York City has more policemen and Firemen than ANY City in the World.

    2. New York City spends more per capita on public education than any city in the World.

    3. If these bloated bureaucracies would get a better handle on their expenses they could allocate their already exorbitant funding where the rubber meets the road.

    This project is coming to fruition after decades of languishing. It will be a great think for Mets Fans and NYC residents alike

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggieSmalls View Post
    Its the same old tired arguments.

    To equate investing a small fraction of the city's budget in a long term project that will create tens of thousands of jobs with losing jobs for "policemen, firemen and teachers" is just laughable.

    There will be more teacher jobs when this project is complete

    There will be more police and fireman jobs when this project is complete.

    There will be tens of thousand of construction jobs created during the project.

    There will be thousands of full time jobs created in the devlopment zone/

    Most of the existing jobs in the zone will be relocated to more appropriate areas.

    Those who are not relocated will be retrained as part of the plan.

    New Yorkers will receive over 5,000 new housing units including up to 40% for low income.
    These claims are dishonest. We've had over a decade of rampant real estate overdevelopment fueled by weird, fishy loans that are collapsing on themselves and screwing everyone else in the process; I've yet to see any prosperity as a result. Your whole real estate hustler/carnival barker come on is the thing that's tired and old.

    There's already a ton of development all over the City and it doesn't seem to have done a thing to promote any general prosperity.

    1) Prove me wrong by explaining exactly how, for example:

    "There will be more teacher jobs when this project is complete

    There will be more police and fireman jobs when this project is complete.


    and...

    2) Let's say I go along with you and agree that this $3+ billion boondoggle is a great boon to humanity... Please explain why it has to take place on a swamp which will require many millions of public dollars for landfill and to build sewers and infrastructure?

    Why not invest the money on someplace where the supposed benefits of development can be realized faster and for less money?


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

  14. #39
    First off your continued contention that this is a "3 billion dollar boon doggle" of public dollars is a mischarecterization

    The development will not be done ont he City's dime. It will be done by private developers.

    Ill say again, the amount of dollars committed by the City is 400 million dollars. Most of which will be recouped in the sale of the land tot he developer.

    Many developments have taken place on landfil and on property that otherwise did not have any infrastructure. This has been going on for decades. There is nothing different with the property at Willets Point. It is an historic ash and garbage dump that has been mistreated and neglected for 50 years.

    The 60 acres of land land at Willets Point is immediately adjacent to the largest park in the City and a brand new sports complex. It is sandwiched between two of the fastest growing areas of this city. It lies at the crux of three major highway routes and near two major international airports.

    If is an ideal parcel of land to develop into something more useful than what it is now. Is it the only parcel in the city that can be developed? No. Hudson Yards, Atlantic Yards and Sunny side Yards are three parcels that area also ripe for re development.

    It is the role of government to recognize that long term investment is needed to create housing and jobs and lifestyle centers that can sustain and build this economy for the next 25 years.

    If we took your point of view in the 20s and 30's we would never have places like Rockefeller Center or other large scale private developments. If we took your point of view in other decades we would not have many many other places in this city that have since become icons of the city.

    How will there be more teachers, olice and fire jobs when this is complete?

    This is a ten year project to complete. At that time based on the population growth expected in the city three will certainly be a higher total budget and more city services on an absolute basis than there are today.

    To focus on a one or maybe two year blip in the economy and say we should redirect all long term investments to further fund services that could cut waste fraud and abuse and make up any small differences in absolute dollar cuts is short term thinking and not providing for long term planning.


    To say the real estate development boom over the last 10 or so years (arguably the last 30 years) has not provided tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in tax revenue for this city is really not seeing the complete picture./

    Would your suggestion be that this city not fund any long term planning goals and dump every last cent of the budget into paying for more civil servants and government jobs?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggieSmalls View Post
    First off your continued contention that this is a "3 billion dollar boon doggle" of public dollars is a mischarecterization

    The development will not be done ont he City's dime. It will be done by private developers.

    Ill say again, the amount of dollars committed by the City is 400 million dollars. Most of which will be recouped in the sale of the land tot he developer.

    Many developments have taken place on landfil and on property that otherwise did not have any infrastructure. This has been going on for decades. There is nothing different with the property at Willets Point. It is an historic ash and garbage dump that has been mistreated and neglected for 50 years.

    The 60 acres of land land at Willets Point is immediately adjacent to the largest park in the City and a brand new sports complex. It is sandwiched between two of the fastest growing areas of this city. It lies at the crux of three major highway routes and near two major international airports.

    If is an ideal parcel of land to develop into something more useful than what it is now. Is it the only parcel in the city that can be developed? No. Hudson Yards, Atlantic Yards and Sunny side Yards are three parcels that area also ripe for re development.

    It is the role of government to recognize that long term investment is needed to create housing and jobs and lifestyle centers that can sustain and build this economy for the next 25 years.

    If we took your point of view in the 20s and 30's we would never have places like Rockefeller Center or other large scale private developments. If we took your point of view in other decades we would not have many many other places in this city that have since become icons of the city.

    How will there be more teachers, olice and fire jobs when this is complete?

    This is a ten year project to complete. At that time based on the population growth expected in the city three will certainly be a higher total budget and more city services on an absolute basis than there are today.

    To focus on a one or maybe two year blip in the economy and say we should redirect all long term investments to further fund services that could cut waste fraud and abuse and make up any small differences in absolute dollar cuts is short term thinking and not providing for long term planning.


    To say the real estate development boom over the last 10 or so years (arguably the last 30 years) has not provided tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in tax revenue for this city is really not seeing the complete picture./

    Would your suggestion be that this city not fund any long term planning goals and dump every last cent of the budget into paying for more civil servants and government jobs?
    My position here is pretty simple: If New York City can't afford to maintain basic services for its citizens, it has no business funding private business ventures for billionaires.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

  16. #41
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    Who would want to live on the toxic land that has been contaminated by all the auto shops in the area? In Brooklyn people who are living in former factory areas around Greenpoint have started to report health problems due to living in the area and I can imagine it would be much much worse in Willets Point.

    And are some of you really comparing jobs that pay at best $12 a hour to jobs such as police, firefighters and teachers?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    My position here is pretty simple: If New York City can't afford to maintain basic services for its citizens, it has no business funding private business ventures for billionaires.
    Even if these private business ventures will benefit the citizens?
    "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

    "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

    "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

  18. #43
    The city budget is 60 billion dollars.

    Over $6,000 for every man woman and child in residence.

    There are over 35,000 uniformed police offers and 15,000 firemen. Which is nearly three times the next highest in force strength in the U.S. The budget of NYC would make it a top ten STATE in the union. And is larger then many developed countries with many many more people.

    That should be plenty to fund an acceptable level of city services.

    A city SHOULD invest a portion of its budget in this type of long term investment that creates jobs, increases the tax base and provides for long term quality of life improvements

    As a Mets fan and A New Yorker this development would benefit me immensely. I think most Mets fans, if asked, would support this project whole heartedly. ASking why it wasnt done sooner.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by SilentKiller View Post
    And are some of you really comparing jobs that pay at best $12 a hour to jobs such as police, firefighters and teachers?

    The jobs created would be over 20,00 construction jobs and over 5,000 permanent jobs. The only $12 an hour jobs are those taken by the undocumented illegal workers who toil in the polluted iron triangle every day.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by SilentKiller View Post
    Who would want to live on the toxic land that has been contaminated by all the auto shops in the area?
    Part of the project is to remediate the 70 years of pollution before constructing the housing, hotels, convention centers, retail and commercial space.

  21. #46
    Looknig at Willets Point makes me think of the poor communities of africa, they need redevelopment!

  22. #47
    Just for perspective.

    there are over three times as many uniformed NYC police officers as Federal Bureau of Investigations agents.


    There are over three times as Many NYC police officers as LA PD officers.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggieSmalls View Post
    The jobs created would be over 20,00 construction jobs and over 5,000 permanent jobs. The only $12 an hour jobs are those taken by the undocumented illegal workers who toil in the polluted iron triangle every day.
    Those construction jobs don't last forever and which one of those 5000 jobs you're talking about is paying more than $12 a hour? $12 a hour was being conservative by the way.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggieSmalls View Post
    Part of the project is to remediate the 70 years of pollution before constructing the housing, hotels, convention centers, retail and commercial space.
    If you think 70 years of toxic waste is going to be cleaned in up as short as 10 years you must be some kind of dreamer.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentKiller View Post
    Those construction jobs don't last forever and which one of those 5000 jobs you're talking about is paying more than $12 a hour? $12 a hour was being conservative by the way.
    So because they aren't permanent it's pointless?
    "I'm happy for [Edwin Encarnacion] because this guy bleeds internally, big-time" -Dusty Baker

    "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

    "At the end of the day, the sun comes up and I still have a job" -Joba Chamberlain

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