This is our ninth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST April 10, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1943 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our ninth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST April 10, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1943 voters, are in this thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, I request that you PM me (jalbright) to ensure that I am aware of the change(s) or make a separate posting in the voting thread. You must let me know the players involved in the changes at a minimum, but it would also help if you added their rankings (before and after). I cannot agree to be responsible for monitoring the thread for any changes voters might make. If I catch them, fine, but if I don't and am not notified, the official count will be what I have been notified of, not what is on the thread.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.
21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1944 are:
There is only one contributor candidate becoming eligible in 1944, Jack Norworth.Code:Arlett , Buzz Bishop , Max Combs , Earle Crowder , Al Fonseca , Lew Hoyt , Waite Root , Charlie Whitehill , Earl
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1943 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1943 election:
The 1942 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1942 election:Code:player……………… votes points Wright , George 15 101 Santop , Louis 14 98 Ward , John M. 10 75 Rusie , Amos 13 73 Hines , Paul 12 71 Barnes , Ross 10 70 Clarke , Fred 12 64 Sisler , George 11 63 Jackson , Joe 6 53 Collins , Jimmy 10 49 Magee , Sherry 9 47 Wheat , Zack 6 38 Radbourn , C 7 29 Thompson , S 4 25 Bennett , C 4 23 Keeler , Willie 5 23 Vance , Dazzy 5 23 Stovey , Harry 5 22 Start , Joe 3 21 Sutton , Ezra 3 21 Johnson , HR 3 18 Terry , Bill 3 17 Traynor , Pie 2 16 Carey , Max 2 15 Caruthers , B 3 15 Waddell , Rube 3 12 Grant , Frank 1 10 Flick , Elmer 2 9 Galvin , Pud 2 9 Gore , George 2 8 Groh , Heinie 1 8 Spalding , Al 2 7 Chance , Frank 1 6 Coveleski , S 2 6 Maranville , R 2 6 Browning , Pete 2 4 Duffy , Hugh 1 4 Hill , Pete 1 4 McPhee , Bid 1 4 Roush , Edd 1 4 Pennock, Herb 1 3 Tinker, Joe 1 3 Evers , Johnny 1 2 Jennings , H 1 2 Bresnahan , R 1 1 Kling, Johnny 1 1 Pearce , Dickey 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:contributor……. votes points Hulbert , W 17 60 Creighton , J 13 40 Cartwright , A 11 39 Richter , F 7 18 Klem, Bill….. 8 14 Landis , K 4 12 Barrow , Ed 4 8 Pearce, Dickey 2 5 Taylor , C. I. 2 5 Commiskey , C 1 4 Reach , A. J. 2 4 Clarke , Fred 1 3 Ward , John M. 2 3 Doubleday , A 1 2 Dunn , Jack 1 2 Hanlon , Ned 1 2 Spink, Albert 1 2 Caylor , O. P. 1 1 Conlan , C 1 1 Wilkinson, JL 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall
Players
ContributorsCode:Pete Alexander Cap Anson Frank Baker Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Jesse Burkett Oscar Charleston John Clarkson Ty Cobb Eddie Collins Roger Connor Sam Crawford Bill Dahlen George Davis Ed Delahanty Buck Ewing Frankie Frisch Lou Gehrig Billy Hamilton Harry Heilmann Rogers Hornsby Walter Johnson Tim Keefe King Kelly Nap LaJoie Pop Lloyd Christy Mathewson Kid Nichols Jim O'Rourke Eddie Plank Bullet Joe Rogan Babe Ruth Tris Speaker Cristobal Torriente Honus Wagner Ed Walsh Deacon White Smoky Joe Williams Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Henry Chadwick Rube Foster Ban Johnson Connie Mack John McGraw Al Spalding Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Sparky Altrock , Nick Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Bancroft , Dave Barnes , Ross Barry , Jack Battin , Joe Beaumont , Ginger Beckley , Jake Bender , Chief Bennett , Charlie Benton , Larry Bergen , Marty Bigbee , Carson Bishop , Max Blades , Ray Blue , Lu Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bradley , Bill Breitenstein , Ted Bresnahan , Roger Browning , Pete Burns , George J. Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Cadore , Leon Camnitz , Howie Carey , Max Carrigan , Bill Caruthers , Bob Chance , Frank Chapman , Ray Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Clarke , Fred Coakley , Andy Collins , Jimmy Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Wilbur Coveleski , Stan Crandall , Doc Cravath , Gavvy Creighton , Jim Criger , Lou Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Daubert , Jake Davis , Harry Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Ens , Jewel Evers , Johnny Faber , Red Falkenberg , Cy Fletcher , Art Flick , Elmer Fonseca , Lew Foster , Eddie Fraser , Chick Galvin , Pud Glasscock , Jack Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gore , George Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grant , Frank Griffith , Clark Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Groh , Heinie Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hargrave , Bubbles Harris , Bucky Herzog , Buck Hill , Pete Hinchman , Bill Hines , Paul Hooper , Harry Hoyt , Waite Huggins , Miller Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Joe Jennings , Hughie Johnson , Home Run Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Keeler , Willie Kelley , Joe Kerr , Dickie Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Kling , Johnny Knabe , Otto Kremer , Ray Lange , Bill Larkin , Henry Latham , Arlie Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Leever , Sam Lewis , Duffy Lobert , Hans Long , Herman Lowe , Bobby Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Lyons , Denny Magee , Sherry Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marquard , Rube Mathews , Bobby Mays , Carl McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCormick , Jim McGinnity , Joe McGowan , Bill McInnis , Stuffy McLean , Larry McPhee , Bid McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Mendez , Jose Meusel , Bob Milan , Clyde Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Moore , Dobie Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mullane , Tony Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Nehf , Art O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oms , Alejandro O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Paskert , Dode Pearce , Dickey Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perkins , Cy Phillippe , Deacon Pike , Lip Pipp , Wally Poles , Spotswood Quinn , Jack Radbourn , Charlie Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Remsen , Jack Rice , Sam Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rixey , Eppa Robertson , Dave Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Rusie , Amos Ryan , Jimmy Santop , Louis Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , Jack Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Seymour , Cy Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Sisler , George Smith , Earl Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Stahl , Jake Start , Joe Steinfeldt , Harry Stephenson , Riggs Stovey , Harry Street , Gabby Sutton , Ezra Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tenney , Fred Terry , Bill Thomas , Ira Thompson , Sam Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Toney , Fred Traynor , Pie Turner , Terry Uhle , George Van Haltren , George Vance , Dazzy Veach , Bobby Waddell , Rube Walberg , Rube Wallace , Bobby Wambsganss , Bill Ward , John M. Warfield , Frank Welch , Mickey Wheat , Zack White , Sol White , Will Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wright , George Yerkes , Steve Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Adams , Doc Bancroft , Frank Barrow , Ed Bulkely , Morgan Cartwright , Alexander Caylor , O. P. Chance , Frank Clarke , Fred Commiskey , Charlie Conlan , Charles Connolly , Tom Cooper , Andy Creighton , Jim Cummings , Candy Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dunn , Jack Elias , Al Munro Foster , John B. Fullerton , Hugh Gleason , Kid Griffith , Clark Hanlon , Ned Hillerich , John Huggins , Miller Hulbert , William Jennings , Hughie Klem , Bill Landis , Kenesaw Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. McCarthy , Tommy Mendez , Jose Mills , A. G. Moran , Pat Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Norworth, Jack Osborn , Frank Reach , A. J. Richter , Francis Robinson , Wilbert Ruppert , Jacob Selee , Frank Shibe , Ben Spink, Albert Stallings , George Taylor , C. I. Thayer , Ernest Ward , John M. Warfield , Frank White , Sol Wilkinson , J. L. Wilson , Horace Wright , George
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot:
Players
1. John M. Ward
2. Amos Rusie
3. Louis Santop
4. Sherry Magee
5. Zack Wheat
6. Paul Hines
7. Fred Clarke
8. George Wright
9. Dazzy Vance
10. Harry Stovey
11. Burleigh Grimes
12. Pud Galvin
Contributors
1. William Hulbert
2. Jim Creighton
3. Kennesaw Landis
4. Francis Richter
5. Bill Klem
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
I'm removing J. L. Wilkinson from my ballot for the time being, though he certainly will reappear. I've added Richter and Klem to my contributor ballot. My three new players (Stovey, Grimes and Galvin) may disappear in 1945 with the deep class that comes on that year. Those that disappear will return, though.
Last edited by jalbright; 03-28-2009 at 09:42 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
John Montgomery Ward is climbing among the players, which I'm glad to see. Even so, I think he's underappreciated at this point. Let me repeat myself on his case:
His playing career divides into two parts, which makes it hard to get a handle on him. First he was a pitcher, and, according to baseball-reference.com, the most similar guy to him in that capacity is HOFer Addie Joss. He hurt his arm, so he moved to shortstop, and the most similar player to him there is a darned good, though not great, player in Bobby Lowe. Put the value of Bobby Lowe on top of Addie Joss, though, and that is definitely a HOF quality player.
He has 409 win shares, good for 41st overall, ahead of the already elected Cap Anson, Frank Baker, Mordecai Brown, Jesse Burkett, John Clarkson, Roger Connor, Bill Dahlen, Buck Ewing, Jim O'Rourke, Eddie Plank, Ed Walsh, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Harry Heilmann, King Kelly and Billy Hamilton and guys with post 1875 careers neck and neck him in the voting like Paul Hines and Amos Rusie. He also had a far longer career than Ross Barnes, who also is neck and neck with him in the voting. I preferred some of these guys to Ward, I admit, but by no means all of them.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
History Mod
1) George Wright
2) Ross Barnes
3) Luis Santop
4) John Ward
5) Paul Hines
6) Fred Clarke
7) Amos Rusie
8) Jimmy Collins
9) Charlie Bennett
10) Dazzy Vance
11) Charlie Radbourne
12) Rube Waddell
1) William Hulbert
2) Alexander Cartwright
3) Francis Richter
4) Dickey Pearce
5) Commissioner Landis
--Nobody in the newly eligible pool is close to my ballot. I'm am going to wait on filling the last 3 spots on my players ballot and last spot on my contributors ballot until after soem discussion. With only one pitcher on my ballot I think at least one of those is certain to be added - although my ballot last year was submitted with only the same one (Rusie).
Last edited by leecemark; 03-28-2009 at 08:57 PM.
1. Sherry Magee
2. Pie Traynor
3. Heinie Groh
4. Max Carey
5. Frank Chance
6. Rabbit Marranville
7. Bid McPhee
8. Joe Tinker
9. Johnny Evers
10. Roger Bresnahan
11. Johnny Kling
12. George Sisler
The 12 spot was tough, I probably would have put Buzz there but I am sure I never would have heard the end of it.
1. Charles Comiskey
2. Ed Barrow
3. Jack Dunn
4. A.J. Reach
5. Bill Klem
I would probably have voted for J.G. Taylor Spink but he is not on the list.
I think by the mid 40's it is pretty clear he is having an impact on the game.
Researcher/advocate/mod
We've discussed Jim Creighton as a contributor, the man who caused the monumental change of making pitching far more important than in slow pitch softball. I'd recommend him for your contributor spot.Originally Posted by leecemark
Two guys who are doing reasonably well in the voting who aren't on your ballot are Zack Wheat and Sherry Magee. I'd recommend those two, for the reasons stated here for Wheat and here for Magee.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
He's not eligible until the earlier of the year he turns 65 or his year of death plus two. By my calculations, he becomes eligible in 1953 under these rules.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Please note that Al Spalding is no longer eligible as a player candidate, as he's been elected as a contributor.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
I'd say Wright and Santop are clear favorites to make it this year, with the third spot going to one of Ward, Rusie, Hines and Barnes, who are closely bunched together in the 1943 voting.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
I have a hard time naming players as contributors based on what they did on the field of play. In terms of claim to fame for the contributor section is his snapping of the wrist to illegally throw fast pitches. I just don't see him being anything more than part of the evolutionary process of the game. What he did wasn't really unique and I am betting he wasn't really the first person to do it. Sure, he did it but what he did wasn't exactly like creating the microprocessor or figure out pasteurization was a good thing or organize an entire league.
What he did was going to happen sooner or later. What he did may very well have changed the game but if he had taken a wrong turn to the game that day then we would probably be hyping John Shoehorn of 1860 instead for this contribution spot or Joe Greenfeld or Gary Bustleton or somebody. The point being name isn't really important for this evolutionary step.
Registered User
Players:
1. Ross Barnes
2. George Wright
3. Ezra Sutton
4. Joe Start
5. Jimmy Collins
6. Paul Hines
7. Edd Roush
8. Charlie Bennett
9. Rabbit Maranville
10. George Sisler
11. Louis Santop
12. Fred Clarke
Contributors:
1. Jim Creighton
2. C. I. Taylor
3. William Hulbert
4. Bill Klem
5. Francis Richter
Not yet on my ballot, but high in my consideration set:
Buzz Arlett
Roger Bresnahan
Pud Galvin
George Gore
Heinie Groh
Bill Jackman
Sherry Magee
Bid McPhee
Amos Rusie
Dazzy Vance
Zach Wheat
Last edited by jjpm74; 03-29-2009 at 08:15 AM.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Are you sure it was going to happen otherwise? It hadn't become popular before him, that's for sure. Moreover, would the impact have been the same if the game had waited 10 or 20 years for someone else to popularize it? I agree that discoveries are sometimes serendipitous (see penicillin, for example), but history remembers those discoverers who ran with what they found. I see no reason for baseball to do differently.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
As the game of baseball becomes more competitive then the need to win becomes greater which means the seeking out of every advantage possible becomes greater. I'm not saying we should ignore Jim and his achievements, I just don't see any particular need to hoist him up to the top of my list.
I don't know it as fact but I'm willing to bet that other people threw the ball illegally before Jim. It just so happens that Jim was at the right place at the right time for his actions to be widely disseminated throughout the baseball playing domain.
To me crediting Jim is like crediting Roger Bannister with runner's ability to run faster than 4 minutes per mile. Sure he was the first but that doesn't but others quickly broke the 4 minute barrier as well.
Registered User
I'm betting you'd be wrong.
Considering how closely intertwined cricket and baseball were and how cricket made its own change from underhand to side arm to eventually over hand and along the way break the wrist I think it is entirely possible that people were doing what Jim did before Jim.
For instance Tom Walker in the late 1700's is widely believed to be the first bowler to change from the underhand throwing style of cricket to the roundarm style. It would eventually become a mainstay of cricket until about 1864 when the overhand style became the popular choice.
Team Veteran
Players:
1. Ross Barnes
2. Charlie Bennett
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Ezra Sutton
5. George Sisler
6. Bob Caruthers
7. George Wright
8. Louis Santop
9. Roger Bresnahan
10. John Ward
11. Dickey Pearce
12. Charlie Radbourne
Contributers:
1. Jim Creighton
2. Bill Klem
3. Francis Richter
4. O.P. Caylor
5. Ed Barrow
Last edited by bambambaseball; 03-28-2009 at 03:45 PM.
Registered User
Players
01. Sherry Magee
02. Pie Traynor
03. Heinie Groh
04. Zack Wheat
05. George Wright
06. Rabbit Marranville
07. Bid McPhee
08. Dazzy Vance
09. Max Carey
10. Roger Bresnahan
11. Amos Rusie
12. George Sisler
Contributors
01. Charles Comiskey
02. Ed Barrow
03. Jack Dunn
04. Jim Creighton
05. Bill Klem
Sunday, May 14, 1978
Players
1. Joe Jackson
2. Fred Clarke
3. Zack Wheat
4. Sherry Magee
5. Willie Keeler
6. Sam Thompson
7. Elmer Flick
8. Bill Terry
9. Harry Stovey
10. Pete Browning
11. George Sisler
12. Joe Kelley
Contributors
1. W. Hulbert
2. J. Creighton
3. A. Cartwright
4. K. Landis
5. F. Richter
Quote
"A ballplayer has to just go out and be mean. You can't play half-heartedly. If you do, there's someone right over your shoulder that'll take your job away. If you don't do your job, what they're paying you for, why should they pay you? You just can't put in eight hours, that's what a lot of people don't realize about athletes. Very few people realize the pressure." Dave Kingman
Researcher/advocate/mod
The last paragraph, to me at least, is an argument against having a contributor ballot. That's fine, but if we're going to have one (and we will so long as there's sufficient interest and the rules call for one), it's irrelevant. You boosted Al Spalding for his sporting goods business, promotions, and so forth. Somebody was going to realize they could make money selling such items, and it only stands to reason they'd want to promote the game to help themselves. Some GM was going to have a player who would openly cross the color line. Eventually, one of them would have had success. These guys actually did these things, and popularized them and/or made them succeed. That's why we are supporting them as contributors.
The fact that Creighton is the guy who at the very least popularized pitching the new way renders the whole issue of whether or not he was actually the first to do so an interesting side question, but not one which should be determinative of him as a contributor. Certainly, Branch Rickey wasn't the first guy to try and put an African-American in a major league uniform. There's no question John McGraw tried it, but as a subterfuge, rather than as an open choice. Some may well have knowingly succeeded McGraw's way. Rickey, though, chose wisely as to who would be the first to make that open break with tradition, and gave Jackie ample support in the effort.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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