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Thread: 1944 Best of Baseball Election

  1. #1
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    1944 Best of Baseball Election

    This is our ninth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST April 10, 2009.

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1943 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    Rules

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, I request that you PM me (jalbright) to ensure that I am aware of the change(s) or make a separate posting in the voting thread. You must let me know the players involved in the changes at a minimum, but it would also help if you added their rankings (before and after). I cannot agree to be responsible for monitoring the thread for any changes voters might make. If I catch them, fine, but if I don't and am not notified, the official count will be what I have been notified of, not what is on the thread.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.

    21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
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    The players who become eligible in 1944 are:

    Code:
    Arlett , Buzz
    Bishop , Max
    Combs , Earle
    Crowder , Al 
    Fonseca , Lew
    Hoyt , Waite
    Root , Charlie
    Whitehill , Earl
    There is only one contributor candidate becoming eligible in 1944, Jack Norworth.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #4
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    The 1943 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1943 election:

    Code:
    player………………	votes	points
    Wright , George	15	101
    Santop , Louis	14	98
    Ward , John M.	10	75
    Rusie , Amos	13	73
    Hines , Paul	12	71
    Barnes , Ross	10	70
    Clarke , Fred	12	64
    Sisler , George	11	63
    Jackson , Joe	6	53
    Collins , Jimmy	10	49
    Magee , Sherry	9	47
    Wheat , Zack	6	38
    Radbourn , C	7	29
    Thompson , S	4	25
    Bennett , C	4	23
    Keeler , Willie	5	23
    Vance , Dazzy	5	23
    Stovey , Harry	5	22
    Start , Joe	3	21
    Sutton , Ezra	3	21
    Johnson , HR	3	18
    Terry , Bill	3	17
    Traynor , Pie	2	16
    Carey , Max	2	15
    Caruthers , B 	3	15
    Waddell , Rube	3	12
    Grant , Frank	1	10
    Flick , Elmer	2	9
    Galvin , Pud	2	9
    Gore , George	2	8
    Groh , Heinie	1	8
    Spalding , Al	2	7
    Chance , Frank	1	6
    Coveleski , S	2	6
    Maranville , R	2	6
    Browning , Pete	2	4
    Duffy , Hugh	1	4
    Hill , Pete	 1	4
    McPhee , Bid	1	4
    Roush , Edd 	1	4
    Pennock, Herb	1	3
    Tinker, Joe	1	3
    Evers , Johnny	1	2
    Jennings , H	1	2
    Bresnahan , R	1	1
    Kling, Johnny	1	1
    Pearce , Dickey	1	1
    The 1942 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1942 election:

    Code:
    contributor…….	votes	points
    Hulbert , W	17	60
    Creighton , J	13	40
    Cartwright , A	11	39
    Richter , F	7	18
    Klem, Bill…..	8	14
    Landis , K	4	12
    Barrow , Ed	4	8
    Pearce, Dickey	2	5
    Taylor , C. I.	2	5
    Commiskey , C	1	4
    Reach , A. J.	2	4
    Clarke , Fred	1	3
    Ward , John M.	2	3
    Doubleday , A	1	2
    Dunn , Jack	1	2
    Hanlon , Ned	1	2
    Spink, Albert	1	2
    Caylor , O. P.	1	1
    Conlan , C	1	1
    Wilkinson, JL	1	1
    I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #5
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    Members of the Best of Baseball Hall

    Players

    Code:
    Pete Alexander
    Cap Anson
    Frank Baker
    Dan Brouthers
    Mordecai Brown
    Jesse Burkett
    Oscar Charleston
    John Clarkson
    Ty Cobb
    Eddie Collins
    Roger Connor
    Sam Crawford
    Bill Dahlen
    George Davis
    Ed Delahanty
    Buck Ewing
    Frankie Frisch
    Lou Gehrig
    Billy Hamilton
    Harry Heilmann
    Rogers Hornsby
    Walter Johnson
    Tim Keefe
    King Kelly
    Nap LaJoie
    Pop Lloyd
    Christy Mathewson
    Kid Nichols
    Jim O'Rourke
    Eddie Plank
    Bullet Joe Rogan
    Babe Ruth
    Tris Speaker
    Cristobal Torriente
    Honus Wagner
    Ed Walsh
    Deacon White
    Smoky Joe Williams
    Cy Young
    Contributors

    Code:
    Doc Adams
    Henry Chadwick
    Rube Foster
    Ban Johnson
    Connie Mack
    John McGraw
    Al Spalding
    Harry Wright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  6. #6
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    The complete list of eligible players:

    Code:
    Adams , Babe
    Adams , Sparky
    Altrock , Nick
    Archer , Jimmy
    Arlett , Buzz
    Austin , Jimmy
    Bancroft , Dave
    Barnes , Ross
    Barry , Jack
    Battin , Joe
    Beaumont , Ginger
    Beckley , Jake
    Bender , Chief
    Bennett , Charlie
    Benton , Larry
    Bergen , Marty
    Bigbee , Carson
    Bishop , Max
    Blades , Ray
    Blue , Lu
    Bodie , Ping
    Boley , Joe
    Bond , Tommy
    Bradley , Bill
    Breitenstein , Ted
    Bresnahan , Roger
    Browning , Pete
    Burns , George J.
    Bush  , Joe
    Bush , Donie
    Cadore , Leon
    Camnitz , Howie
    Carey , Max
    Carrigan , Bill
    Caruthers , Bob 
    Chance , Frank
    Chapman , Ray
    Chase , Hal
    Chesbro , Jack
    Childs , Cupid
    Cicotte , Eddie
    Clarke , Fred
    Coakley , Andy
    Collins , Jimmy
    Collins , Shano
    Combs , Earle
    Conroy , Wid
    Coombs , Jack
    Cooper , Andy
    Cooper , Wilbur
    Coveleski , Stan
    Crandall , Doc
    Cravath , Gavvy
    Creighton , Jim
    Criger , Lou
    Cross , Lave
    Crowder , Al 
    Cruise , Walt
    Cummings , Candy
    Cuyler , Kiki
    Daubert , Jake
    Davis , Harry
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doak , Bill
    Donlin , Mike
    Donovan , Bill
    Dooin , Red
    Doyle , Jack 
    Doyle , Larry
    Duffy , Hugh
    Dugan , Joe
    Dunlap , Fred
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Ehmke , Howard
    Elberfeld , Kid
    Ens , Jewel
    Evers , Johnny
    Faber , Red
    Falkenberg , Cy
    Fletcher , Art
    Flick , Elmer
    Fonseca , Lew
    Foster , Eddie
    Fraser , Chick
    Galvin , Pud
    Glasscock , Jack
    Gleason , Kid
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gore , George
    Gowdy , Hank
    Grant , Eddie
    Grant , Frank
    Griffith , Clark
    Grimes , Burleigh
    Grimm , Charlie
    Groh , Heinie
    Hahn , Noodles
    Haines , Jesse
    Hargrave , Bubbles
    Harris , Bucky
    Herzog , Buck 
    Hill , Pete
    Hinchman , Bill
    Hines , Paul
    Hooper , Harry
    Hoyt , Waite
    Huggins , Miller
    Irwin , Charlie
    Jackman , Will
    Jackson , Joe
    Jennings , Hughie
    Johnson , Home Run
    Jones , Charley
    Jones , Fielder
    Jones , Sam P.
    Jordan , Tim
    Joss , Addie
    Judge , Joe
    Keeler , Willie
    Kelley , Joe
    Kerr , Dickie
    Killefer , Bill
    Kilroy , Matt
    Kling , Johnny
    Knabe , Otto
    Kremer , Ray
    Lange , Bill
    Larkin , Henry
    Latham , Arlie
    Leach , Freddy
    Leach , Tommy
    Leever , Sam
    Lewis , Duffy
    Lobert , Hans
    Long , Herman
    Lowe , Bobby
    Lundy , Dick
    Luque , Dolf
    Lyons , Denny
    Magee , Sherry
    Maranville , Rabbit
    Marberry , Firpo
    Marquard , Rube
    Mathews , Bobby
    Mays , Carl
    McAleer , Jimmy
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McCormick , Jim
    McGinnity , Joe
    McGowan , Bill
    McInnis , Stuffy
    McLean , Larry
    McPhee , Bid
    McVey , Cal
    Meadows , Lee
    Mendez , Jose
    Meusel , Bob
    Milan , Clyde
    Miller , Bing
    Miller , Dots
    Miller , Hack
    Moore , Dobie
    Moran , Pat
    Mostil , Johnny
    Mullane , Tony
    Murphy , Danny
    Murray , Red
    Nehf , Art
    O'Doul , Lefty
    Oeschger , Joe
    O'Farrell , Bob
    O'Leary , Charlie
    Oms , Alejandro
    O'Neill , Steve
    O'Neill , Tip
    Orr , Dave
    Pabor , Charlie
    Paskert , Dode
    Pearce , Dickey
    Peckinpaugh , Roger
    Peitz , Heinie
    Pennock , Herb
    Perdue , Hub
    Perkins , Cy
    Phillippe , Deacon 
    Pike , Lip
    Pipp , Wally
    Poles , Spotswood
    Quinn , Jack
    Radbourn , Charlie
    Raymond , Bugs
    Redding , Dick
    Remsen , Jack
    Rice , Sam
    Richardson , Hardy
    Ring , Jimmy
    Ritchey , Claude
    Rixey , Eppa
    Robertson , Dave
    Rommel , Eddie
    Root , Charlie
    Roush , Edd 
    Rucker , Nap
    Rudolph , Dick
    Ruel , Muddy
    Rusie , Amos
    Ryan  , Jimmy
    Santop , Louis
    Schacht , Al
    Schaefer , Germany
    Schalk , Ray
    Schang , Wally
    Schreckengost , Ossie
    Schulte , Frank
    Scott , Everett
    Scott , Jack
    Severeid , Hank
    Sewell , Joe
    Seymour , Cy
    Sheckard , Jimmy
    Sherdel , Bill
    Shocker , Urban
    Sisler , George
    Smith , Earl
    Smith , Sherry
    Sparks , Tully
    Stahl , Jake
    Start , Joe
    Steinfeldt , Harry
    Stephenson , Riggs
    Stovey , Harry
    Street , Gabby
    Sutton , Ezra
    Sweeney , Bill
    Tannehill , Jesse
    Taylor , Ben
    Tenney , Fred
    Terry , Bill
    Thomas , Ira
    Thompson , Sam
    Tiernan , Mike
    Tinker , Joe
    Toney , Fred
    Traynor , Pie
    Turner , Terry
    Uhle , George
    Van Haltren , George
    Vance , Dazzy
    Veach , Bobby
    Waddell , Rube
    Walberg , Rube
    Wallace , Bobby
    Wambsganss , Bill
    Ward , John M.
    Warfield , Frank
    Welch , Mickey
    Wheat , Zack
    White , Sol
    White , Will 
    Whitehill , Earl
    Williams , Cy
    Williams , Ken
    Williamson , Ned
    Willis , Vic
    Witt , Whitey
    Wood , Joe
    Wright , George
    Yerkes , Steve
    Youngs , Ross
    Zachary , Tom
    Zimmer , Chief
    The complete list of eligible contributors:

    Code:
    Abe , Iso
    Adams , Doc
    Bancroft , Frank
    Barrow , Ed
    Bulkely , Morgan
    Cartwright , Alexander
    Caylor , O. P.
    Chance , Frank
    Clarke , Fred
    Commiskey , Charlie
    Conlan , Charles
    Connolly , Tom
    Cooper , Andy
    Creighton , Jim
    Cummings , Candy
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doubleday , Abner
    Dreyfuss , Barney
    Dunn , Jack
    Elias , Al Munro
    Foster , John B.
    Fullerton , Hugh
    Gleason , Kid
    Griffith , Clark
    Hanlon , Ned
    Hillerich , John
    Huggins , Miller
    Hulbert , William
    Jennings , Hughie
    Klem , Bill
    Landis , Kenesaw
    Lardner , Ring
    Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
    McCarthy , Tommy
    Mendez , Jose
    Mills , A. G.
    Moran , Pat
    Mutrie , Jim
    Navin , Frank
    Norworth, Jack
    Osborn , Frank
    Reach , A. J.
    Richter , Francis
    Robinson , Wilbert
    Ruppert , Jacob
    Selee , Frank
    Shibe , Ben
    Spink, Albert
    Stallings , George
    Taylor , C. I.
    Thayer , Ernest
    Ward , John M.
    Warfield , Frank
    White , Sol
    Wilkinson , J. L. 
    Wilson , Horace
    Wright , George
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #7
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    My ballot:

    Players
    1. John M. Ward
    2. Amos Rusie
    3. Louis Santop
    4. Sherry Magee
    5. Zack Wheat
    6. Paul Hines
    7. Fred Clarke
    8. George Wright
    9. Dazzy Vance
    10. Harry Stovey
    11. Burleigh Grimes
    12. Pud Galvin

    Contributors
    1. William Hulbert
    2. Jim Creighton
    3. Kennesaw Landis
    4. Francis Richter
    5. Bill Klem
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #8
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    I'm removing J. L. Wilkinson from my ballot for the time being, though he certainly will reappear. I've added Richter and Klem to my contributor ballot. My three new players (Stovey, Grimes and Galvin) may disappear in 1945 with the deep class that comes on that year. Those that disappear will return, though.
    Last edited by jalbright; 03-28-2009 at 09:42 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  9. #9
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    John Montgomery Ward is climbing among the players, which I'm glad to see. Even so, I think he's underappreciated at this point. Let me repeat myself on his case:

    His playing career divides into two parts, which makes it hard to get a handle on him. First he was a pitcher, and, according to baseball-reference.com, the most similar guy to him in that capacity is HOFer Addie Joss. He hurt his arm, so he moved to shortstop, and the most similar player to him there is a darned good, though not great, player in Bobby Lowe. Put the value of Bobby Lowe on top of Addie Joss, though, and that is definitely a HOF quality player.

    He has 409 win shares, good for 41st overall, ahead of the already elected Cap Anson, Frank Baker, Mordecai Brown, Jesse Burkett, John Clarkson, Roger Connor, Bill Dahlen, Buck Ewing, Jim O'Rourke, Eddie Plank, Ed Walsh, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Harry Heilmann, King Kelly and Billy Hamilton and guys with post 1875 careers neck and neck him in the voting like Paul Hines and Amos Rusie. He also had a far longer career than Ross Barnes, who also is neck and neck with him in the voting. I preferred some of these guys to Ward, I admit, but by no means all of them.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  10. #10
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    1) George Wright
    2) Ross Barnes
    3) Luis Santop
    4) John Ward
    5) Paul Hines
    6) Fred Clarke
    7) Amos Rusie
    8) Jimmy Collins
    9) Charlie Bennett
    10) Dazzy Vance
    11) Charlie Radbourne
    12) Rube Waddell


    1) William Hulbert
    2) Alexander Cartwright
    3) Francis Richter
    4) Dickey Pearce
    5) Commissioner Landis

    --Nobody in the newly eligible pool is close to my ballot. I'm am going to wait on filling the last 3 spots on my players ballot and last spot on my contributors ballot until after soem discussion. With only one pitcher on my ballot I think at least one of those is certain to be added - although my ballot last year was submitted with only the same one (Rusie).
    Last edited by leecemark; 03-28-2009 at 08:57 PM.

  11. #11
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    1. Sherry Magee
    2. Pie Traynor
    3. Heinie Groh
    4. Max Carey
    5. Frank Chance
    6. Rabbit Marranville
    7. Bid McPhee
    8. Joe Tinker
    9. Johnny Evers
    10. Roger Bresnahan
    11. Johnny Kling
    12. George Sisler

    The 12 spot was tough, I probably would have put Buzz there but I am sure I never would have heard the end of it.


    1. Charles Comiskey
    2. Ed Barrow
    3. Jack Dunn
    4. A.J. Reach
    5. Bill Klem

    I would probably have voted for J.G. Taylor Spink but he is not on the list.
    I think by the mid 40's it is pretty clear he is having an impact on the game.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --Nobody in the newly eligible pool is close to my ballot. I'm am going to wait on filling the last 3 spots on my players ballot and last spot on my contributors ballot until after soem discussion. With only one pitcher on my ballot I think at least one of those is certain to be added - although my ballot last year was submitted with only the same one (Rusie).
    We've discussed Jim Creighton as a contributor, the man who caused the monumental change of making pitching far more important than in slow pitch softball. I'd recommend him for your contributor spot.

    Two guys who are doing reasonably well in the voting who aren't on your ballot are Zack Wheat and Sherry Magee. I'd recommend those two, for the reasons stated here for Wheat and here for Magee.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    I would probably have voted for J.G. Taylor Spink but he is not on the list.
    I think by the mid 40's it is pretty clear he is having an impact on the game.
    He's not eligible until the earlier of the year he turns 65 or his year of death plus two. By my calculations, he becomes eligible in 1953 under these rules.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  14. #14
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    Please note that Al Spalding is no longer eligible as a player candidate, as he's been elected as a contributor.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    I'd say Wright and Santop are clear favorites to make it this year, with the third spot going to one of Ward, Rusie, Hines and Barnes, who are closely bunched together in the 1943 voting.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    I have a hard time naming players as contributors based on what they did on the field of play. In terms of claim to fame for the contributor section is his snapping of the wrist to illegally throw fast pitches. I just don't see him being anything more than part of the evolutionary process of the game. What he did wasn't really unique and I am betting he wasn't really the first person to do it. Sure, he did it but what he did wasn't exactly like creating the microprocessor or figure out pasteurization was a good thing or organize an entire league.

    What he did was going to happen sooner or later. What he did may very well have changed the game but if he had taken a wrong turn to the game that day then we would probably be hyping John Shoehorn of 1860 instead for this contribution spot or Joe Greenfeld or Gary Bustleton or somebody. The point being name isn't really important for this evolutionary step.

  17. #17
    Players:

    1. Ross Barnes
    2. George Wright
    3. Ezra Sutton
    4. Joe Start
    5. Jimmy Collins
    6. Paul Hines
    7. Edd Roush
    8. Charlie Bennett
    9. Rabbit Maranville
    10. George Sisler
    11. Louis Santop
    12. Fred Clarke

    Contributors:

    1. Jim Creighton
    2. C. I. Taylor
    3. William Hulbert
    4. Bill Klem
    5. Francis Richter

    Not yet on my ballot, but high in my consideration set:

    Buzz Arlett
    Roger Bresnahan
    Pud Galvin
    George Gore
    Heinie Groh
    Bill Jackman
    Sherry Magee
    Bid McPhee
    Amos Rusie
    Dazzy Vance
    Zach Wheat
    Last edited by jjpm74; 03-29-2009 at 08:15 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    I have a hard time naming players as contributors based on what they did on the field of play. In terms of claim to fame for the contributor section is his snapping of the wrist to illegally throw fast pitches. I just don't see him being anything more than part of the evolutionary process of the game. What he did wasn't really unique and I am betting he wasn't really the first person to do it. Sure, he did it but what he did wasn't exactly like creating the microprocessor or figure out pasteurization was a good thing or organize an entire league.

    What he did was going to happen sooner or later. What he did may very well have changed the game but if he had taken a wrong turn to the game that day then we would probably be hyping John Shoehorn of 1860 instead for this contribution spot or Joe Greenfeld or Gary Bustleton or somebody. The point being name isn't really important for this evolutionary step.
    Are you sure it was going to happen otherwise? It hadn't become popular before him, that's for sure. Moreover, would the impact have been the same if the game had waited 10 or 20 years for someone else to popularize it? I agree that discoveries are sometimes serendipitous (see penicillin, for example), but history remembers those discoverers who ran with what they found. I see no reason for baseball to do differently.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Are you sure it was going to happen otherwise? It hadn't become popular before him, that's for sure. Moreover, would the impact have been the same if the game had waited 10 or 20 years for someone else to popularize it? I agree that discoveries are sometimes serendipitous (see penicillin, for example), but history remembers those discoverers who ran with what they found. I see no reason for baseball to do differently.
    As the game of baseball becomes more competitive then the need to win becomes greater which means the seeking out of every advantage possible becomes greater. I'm not saying we should ignore Jim and his achievements, I just don't see any particular need to hoist him up to the top of my list.

    I don't know it as fact but I'm willing to bet that other people threw the ball illegally before Jim. It just so happens that Jim was at the right place at the right time for his actions to be widely disseminated throughout the baseball playing domain.

    To me crediting Jim is like crediting Roger Bannister with runner's ability to run faster than 4 minutes per mile. Sure he was the first but that doesn't but others quickly broke the 4 minute barrier as well.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    I am betting he wasn't really the first person to do it.
    I'm betting you'd be wrong.

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    Considering how closely intertwined cricket and baseball were and how cricket made its own change from underhand to side arm to eventually over hand and along the way break the wrist I think it is entirely possible that people were doing what Jim did before Jim.

    For instance Tom Walker in the late 1700's is widely believed to be the first bowler to change from the underhand throwing style of cricket to the roundarm style. It would eventually become a mainstay of cricket until about 1864 when the overhand style became the popular choice.

  22. #22
    Players:

    1. Ross Barnes
    2. Charlie Bennett
    3. Jimmy Collins
    4. Ezra Sutton
    5. George Sisler
    6. Bob Caruthers
    7. George Wright
    8. Louis Santop
    9. Roger Bresnahan
    10. John Ward
    11. Dickey Pearce
    12. Charlie Radbourne
    Contributers:

    1. Jim Creighton
    2. Bill Klem
    3. Francis Richter
    4. O.P. Caylor
    5. Ed Barrow
    Last edited by bambambaseball; 03-28-2009 at 03:45 PM.

  23. #23
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    Posts
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    Players

    01. Sherry Magee
    02. Pie Traynor
    03. Heinie Groh
    04. Zack Wheat
    05. George Wright
    06. Rabbit Marranville
    07. Bid McPhee
    08. Dazzy Vance
    09. Max Carey
    10. Roger Bresnahan
    11. Amos Rusie
    12. George Sisler

    Contributors

    01. Charles Comiskey
    02. Ed Barrow
    03. Jack Dunn
    04. Jim Creighton
    05. Bill Klem

  24. #24
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    Posts
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    Players

    1. Joe Jackson
    2. Fred Clarke
    3. Zack Wheat
    4. Sherry Magee
    5. Willie Keeler
    6. Sam Thompson
    7. Elmer Flick
    8. Bill Terry
    9. Harry Stovey
    10. Pete Browning
    11. George Sisler
    12. Joe Kelley

    Contributors

    1. W. Hulbert
    2. J. Creighton
    3. A. Cartwright
    4. K. Landis
    5. F. Richter
    Quote
    "A ballplayer has to just go out and be mean. You can't play half-heartedly. If you do, there's someone right over your shoulder that'll take your job away. If you don't do your job, what they're paying you for, why should they pay you? You just can't put in eight hours, that's what a lot of people don't realize about athletes. Very few people realize the pressure." Dave Kingman

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    As the game of baseball becomes more competitive then the need to win becomes greater which means the seeking out of every advantage possible becomes greater. I'm not saying we should ignore Jim and his achievements, I just don't see any particular need to hoist him up to the top of my list.

    I don't know it as fact but I'm willing to bet that other people threw the ball illegally before Jim. It just so happens that Jim was at the right place at the right time for his actions to be widely disseminated throughout the baseball playing domain.

    To me crediting Jim is like crediting Roger Bannister with runner's ability to run faster than 4 minutes per mile. Sure he was the first but that doesn't but others quickly broke the 4 minute barrier as well.

    The last paragraph, to me at least, is an argument against having a contributor ballot. That's fine, but if we're going to have one (and we will so long as there's sufficient interest and the rules call for one), it's irrelevant. You boosted Al Spalding for his sporting goods business, promotions, and so forth. Somebody was going to realize they could make money selling such items, and it only stands to reason they'd want to promote the game to help themselves. Some GM was going to have a player who would openly cross the color line. Eventually, one of them would have had success. These guys actually did these things, and popularized them and/or made them succeed. That's why we are supporting them as contributors.

    The fact that Creighton is the guy who at the very least popularized pitching the new way renders the whole issue of whether or not he was actually the first to do so an interesting side question, but not one which should be determinative of him as a contributor. Certainly, Branch Rickey wasn't the first guy to try and put an African-American in a major league uniform. There's no question John McGraw tried it, but as a subterfuge, rather than as an open choice. Some may well have knowingly succeeded McGraw's way. Rickey, though, chose wisely as to who would be the first to make that open break with tradition, and gave Jackie ample support in the effort.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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