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Thread: 1944 Best of Baseball Election

  1. #51
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    Next year, we will add Grantland Rice to our contributor list. Our new class of players is deep and talented:

    Code:
    Bluege , Ossie
    Bottomley , Jim
    Critz , Hughie
    Earnshaw , George
    Elliott , Jumbo
    Goslin , Goose
    Grantham , George
    Grove , Lefty
    Hartnett , Gabby
    Johnson , Judy
    Kamm , Willie
    Lyons , Ted
    McManus , Marty
    Pruett , Hub
    Suttles , Mule
    Wilson , Hack
    Wilson , Jimmie
    Bluege, Critz, Earnshaw, Elliott, Grantham, Kamm, McManus, Pruett, and J. Wilson will not likely draw much interest. Judy Johnson and Jim Bottomley, as befits most Cooperstown inductees, will have some supporters, but I think enough of our electorate views them as mistakes to keep them from ever being elected. Lefty Grove is clearly the top of the class, and should breeze to election. Hack Wilson is somebody who may eventually get in, but probably not for a good while. That leaves four guys who could do fairly well immediately: Goslin, Hartnett, Lyons and Suttles. I'll be voting for those four plus Grove, and will post a review of Suttles later this week.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #52
    Suttles will actually be grabbing the #1 slot for me next election with Grove at #2. I tend to rank Suttles up there with the all time greats of the blackball era.

  3. #53
    Al Reach is another complex candidate like John Ward whom I added to my ballot last year. They both have resumes in more than two sections. Charlie Comiskey is another one of those; today he seems to me the strongest of the other candidates so he is one favorite for next year.

    Contributors
    1. Hulbert
    2. Richter
    3. Klem
    4. Ward
    5. Reach

    Some other leading candidates are Ned Hanlon, Charles Comiskey, Clark Griffith, CI Taylor, JL Wilkinson, Ed Barrow, Kenesaw Landis. Griffith, Barrow, and Landis are still active in the game with Landis still at work in his primary baseball role.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 04-04-2009 at 08:31 AM.

  4. #54
    1. Amos Rusie
    2. Paul Hines
    3. Dazzy Vance
    4. Elmer Flick
    5. Ross Barnes
    6. Grant "Home Run" Johnson
    7. George Wright
    8. Stan Coveleski
    9. Fred Clarke
    10. Hughie Jennings
    11. Charley "Old Hoss" Radbourn
    12. Pete Hill

  5. #55
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    Here's my promised bit on Mule Suttles

    This man earned numerous accolades, including:
    1) placed 14th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats;
    2) selected to the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit";
    3) selected as the second first baseman in a 1993 poll of members of the Negro League Museum;
    4) selected as the 43rd best player of all time by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract;
    5) selected by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract as the second best ever left fielder among Negro Leaguers (to Turkey Stearnes),
    6) named by 70% of Negro League veterans polled by William McNeil for Cool Papas and Double Duties as worthy of Cooperstown; and
    7) named by 88% of the Negro League historians polled by McNeil for CPDD as worthy of Cooperstown.
    8) inducted to Cooperstown in 2006

    The guys over at Baseball Think Factory peg him as a career .300 hitter with 30-35 HR in a typical year, a .360 career OBP and .530 career slugging. They project him to get 2791 hits. The combination of that average, that many career hits and slugging is a sure recipe for Cooperstown. Their research shows him with 56 Black Ink points in the Negro Leagues and 145 Gray Ink points in those leagues. They also project him at 370 career WS, 148 best five consecutive and top three of 36, 35 and 29, while Stargell had career win shares at 352, 126 WS in his best five consecutive years, and a best three of 44, 31 and 28. Really, except for the fact the Mule was a righty and Willie a lefty, they're a heck of a match.

    Those numbers are well under the marks he racked up in the 79 at bats he had against major league pitchers. He got 31 hits for a .392 average--and it was a very loud .392, with 11 homers!

    I should point out the projection points to a man well worthy of a plaque in Cooperstown. No major leaguer with 2500 career hits and a .500 or better slugging average has failed to be inducted to Cooperstown after getting his chance with the voters. Further, only one man with more than the Mule's projected 2791 career hits has not been enshrined--Harold Baines with 2866. Baines was a fine player, but not in the Mule's class (289/359/465). We could carry it to win shares, where Baines has 307 career, 108 for best five consecutive and a top three of 25, 24 and 22. Again, good, but nearly as good as the Mule.

    Furthermore, the latest Bill James Historical Abstract lists him as tied for the greatest player of 1926, and as the greatest player of 1931 and 1941. He might well have won more if Josh Gibson hadn't taken five such titles and Buck Leonard two in that period.

    From Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil, pp. 115-117
    Suttles . . .[was] 6 ' 4", and packed a solid 230 pounds on his rugged frame. Fortunately for his opponents, he didn't have a mean bone in his body. He was a gentle giant, a good-natured fellow who enjoyed life. . .

    Mule Suttles brought excitement to the game of baseball, especially to the home fans, who would chant "kick, Mule, kick" whenever he came to bat in a critical situation. And . . . often. . . Mule would respond by "kicking" one out of the park. He was a good low-ball hitter and a good curve ball hitter, who loved nothing more than to extend his arms and cut loose with an all-or nothing swing. . . .

    Suttles went on to play 18 years in the Negro Leagues, finishing with a .341 battiong average, the fifth-highest average in Negro league history for players with more than 2000 at-bats. . . . He also hit 237 home runs [ed. most in Negro League history], an average of 40 homers for every 550 at-bats. And he didn't stop there. He pounded major-leaue pitchers for a .341 average and 10 home runs in 170 plate appearances in exhibition games. . .

    Suttles played in the California Winter Leagues [ed the first integrated league in North America in the 20th century--many major leaguers played there, too] several years, where he literally destroyed major league and high minor league pitching. Partial statistics credit him with a .378 bating average and 64 home runs in just 450 at-bats, [which] would equate to 77 home runs for every 550 at-bats
    Folks, that is one great player.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  6. #56

    Mule Suttles

    4) selected as the 43rd best player of all time by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract;
    5) selected by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract as the second best ever left fielder among Negro Leaguers (to Turkey Stearnes),

    <<

    The Hall of Merit put Suttles at firstbase (and Stearnes at cf) in a series of special projects to rank members at each fielding position.

    Bill James made a few revisions in the paperback edition of the New BJHBA including big downgrades for Jeff Bagwell and Mark McGwire. In that edition Suttles would be third behind Gehrig and Foxx if James put him at firstbase. (I have the revisions from "Blueblood" iirc.)

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    . Tonight Collins would get the nod only because I give some credit for his work as field manager.
    Paul, please rank the players only as players. If you're saying that a player/manager deserves some leadership bonus, that's fine, but the rule #14 specifically makes this request. Other than a leadership bonus for a player/manager, the place to give credit for roles other than playing is in the contributor category. Thanks.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    I expect to vote for thirdbasemen Jimmy Collins and Heinie Groh. Tonight Collins would get the nod only because I give some credit for his work as field manager.
    Done, slots 11 and 9. I don't know that Collins as captain/manager was crucially involved in positioning the defense or winning arguments with umpires so I am dropping him a couple of rungs from the prelim.

    Amos Rusie takes rank 10. He was a dominating pitcher for almost a decade, what some late 20th century writers would calll "elemental" or "a force of nature" --like Rube Waddell but with more top seasons and higher in the annual workhorse ranks. Now that I think of it, his 19th century nickname "the Hoosier thunderbolt" actually fits that naturalisitic language.

    When they moved the pitchers back five feet it may have seemed that Rusie alone was unaffected. In fact his strikeouts plummeted from about 300 to about 200 per season, much more than his innings, but he led the league in strikeout rate all three seasons '93-95 (only two of '90-92) and by ERA+ he improved because the batters gained so much more in their matchups with other pitchers.

    Rusie missed 1896 in dispute with one of baseball's worst executives, Andrew Freedman. After a fine 1897 season, 322 innings at ERA+ 163, he injured his shoulder on a pickoff play late in 1898, 300 innings at 114. Newspapers covered him as a holdout in 1900 and 1901. He did come back in 1901, now with Cincinnati after the Mathewson transactions. Despite a 1-1 tie in ten innings his three-game season was poor, probably because he was out of shape physically. The newspapers of 1900 and 1901 also covered the Rusies as a married couple, for Mrs. Rusie was one day suing for divorce and next day reconciled with Amos.

    (The Hall of Merit is now discussing and ranking its eighteen member pitchers in group 1893-1923, Rusie to Rixey. There I have learned of his 1898 injury only recently, from Brock Hanke who calls it career-ending. I have not read much news from 1899 and I don't know whether the press covered him as a holdout or an injury or celebrity couple during that winter.)

    I may vote for another 3B, Ezra Sutton, or for some of the 1880s infielders Jack Glasscock, Hardy Richardson, and Bid McPhee.
    Jack Glasscock gets the last spot on my ballot. Glasscock was a rich man's Bobby Wallace about twenty years earlier. Last year the Hall of Merit ranked him number four on a "pre-1943" ballot with eligibility defined by the Cooperstown rules. At four he was far behind Dahlen, White, and Paul Hines but ahead of Gore and Groh from my own ballot here; also ahead of Start and Sutton, Bennett and Caruthers, and Sherry Magee from other ballots here. More than fifteen years ago a blue ribbon panel of 19th century baseball historians put Glasscock in a group of six players urgently recommended to the Hall of Fame Committee on Veterans (the VC to you).

    Here I am continuing the tradition of using the 12 slot flexibly. This is the first listing for Glasscock, who should not be overlooked. Heinie Groh and Bid McPhee have debuted high on some ballots this year after Ubiquitous gave them their first listings last year. I believe that means that some people had overlooked them as candidates; otherwise they would debut in slots 9-12.

    Glasscock isn't my kind of player for a high ranking. Nor are two others of the infielders I named (quoted above), Ezra Sutton and Bid McPhee. I value the long careers a little more than Tiboreau does (just above) but I am on his side of the median among the current group of voters. By getting Glasscock out there today, a few years before he is likely to climb on my ballot, I am writing partly for the careerists who have Zack Wheat near the top and must not be far from listing Bobby Wallace.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 04-05-2009 at 10:17 AM.

  9. #59
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    We're under 55 hours to go in this election, with four folks who voted in last election yet to vote.

    I don't expect to be around Saturday morning, so it may be Saturday night or Sunday morning when I get the results from this election posted and the new election thread up.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  10. #60
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    1. Amos Rusie
    2. George Wright
    3. Charlie Bennett
    4. Paul Hines
    5. Zack Wheat
    6. Pud Galvin
    7. Jimmy Collins
    8. Rube Waddell
    9. Ross Barnes
    10. John M Ward
    11. Ezra Sutton
    12. Fred Clarke

    1. Alexander Cartwright
    2. Jim Creighton
    3. William Hulbert
    4. Bill Klem
    5. Kennesaw Landis
    1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

    1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
    1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
    1966 1974 1977 1978


    1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
    2013


    1996 2006

  11. #61
    Bill Klem is suddenly on "everyone's" ballots, usually in fifth place. He may be elected before he commonly rises above the three spot. It's intriguing how many candidates have garnered a vote or two, now typically in the middle of the ballot, without "picking up fives" (new voters).

  12. #62
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    We have elected George Wright, Louis Santop and Amos Rusie with 20 ballots cast this election. The official results:

    Code:
    player……………..	votes	pts
    Wright , George	15	128
    Santop , Louis	13	106
    Rusie , Amos	14	104
    Barnes , Ross	11	101
    Ward , John M.	12	96
    Hines , Paul	11	86
    Sisler , George	14	80
    Magee , Sherry	8	72
    Clarke , Fred	12	68
    Collins , Jimmy	11	67
    Wheat , Zack	9	53
    Jackson , Joe	5	50
    Vance , Dazzy	10	45
    Traynor , Pie	5	34
    Radbourn , C	8	31
    Bennett , C	4	30
    Keeler , Willie	4	27
    Stovey , H	5	25
    Thompson , S	4	25
    Groh , Heinie	3	24
    Carey , Max	3	23
    Sutton , Ezra	4	22
    Terry , Bill	5	21
    Flick , Elmer	3	19
    McPhee , Bid	3	19
    Maranville , R	3	18
    Waddell , Rube	4	17
    Start , Joe	2	15
    Caruthers , B 	2	14
    Galvin , Pud	3	14
    Grant , Frank	3	14
    Johnson , HR	2	13
    Hoyt, Waite	1	12
    Joss , Addie	1	11
    Bresnahan , R	3	10
    Coveleski , S	2	10
    Roush , Edd 	2	10
    Chance , Frank	1	8
    Browning , P	2	5
    Gore , George	1	5
    Pennock, Herb	1	5
    Tinker, Joe	1	5
    Evers , Johnny	1	4
    Jennings , H	1	3
    Grimes , B	1	2
    Hill , Pete.....2	2
    Kling, Johnny	1	2
    Pearce , Dickey	1	2
    Duffy , Hugh	1	1
    Glasscock , J	1	1
    Kelley , Joe	1	1
    In the contributor voting, we had 18 ballots, and we have elected William Hulbert. The official results:

    Code:
    contributor…	votes	pts
    Hulbert , W	15	55
    Creighton , Jim	10	37
    Cartwright , A	9	36
    Klem, Bill..	15	32
    Richter , F	10	26
    Barrow , Ed	5	13
    Landis , K	6	13
    Commiskey , C	2	9
    Clarke , Fred	2	8
    Reach , A. J.	3	7
    Doubleday , A	2	6
    Dunn , Jack	2	6
    Taylor , C. I.	2	6
    Spink, Albert	2	5
    Hanlon , Ned	1	3
    Caylor , O. P.	1	2
    Conlan , C	1	2
    Pearce, Dickey	1	2
    Ward , John M.	1	2
    Last edited by jalbright; 04-11-2009 at 12:51 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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