BBF VC Progressive HoF Election: 1945

[Ace Venom]

There were 13 ballots cast. Not 12. It doesn't affect the fact that Jimmy Sheckard was elected however. He was elected with 76.9% of the vote. Sheckard being voted in is a bit of a surprise.

13 ballots cast, but only 12 from members of the VC. SavoyBG is not on the list that DoubleX gave me.

acevenom
ag2004
blueblood
brad harris
captain cold nose
cowtipper
dgarza
DoubleX
freakshow
henrich
Jalbright
jjpm74
KCGhost
Leecemark
mwiggins
Paul Wendt
philkid3
pvnick
Windy City Fan

I added myself into the list with DoubleX's blessing. So I only got 12 voters from the VC. I cross referenced the votes with the list and counted only those votes with the committee members.

I propose we put together a master list and revisit the NeL candidates every 5 years; adding anyone who is newly eligible along the way. This would be very progressive from a 1945 standpoint, IMO.

That's a possibility. It could either be 1949 or 1952 to prevent any interference with regular VC and contributor's elections.

[jjpm74]

I added myself into the list with DoubleX's blessing. So I only got 12 voters from the VC. I cross referenced the votes with the list and counted only those votes with the committee members.

Double check with Doublex. SavoyBG is on the VC contributor's committee (and if he's intrerested in this one, IMO he is an active knowledgeable contributor in this project who deserves to be here).

That's a possibility. It could either be 1949 or 1952 to prevent any interference with regular VC and contributor's elections.

Either date works for me. What does everyone else think?

[leecemark]

--13 is a bad number for a committee that requires 75% agreement. You effectively push the percentage up by adding an odd number of voters.
--I would like to see the first Negro League election at the earliest possible date. 1949 would be okay. 1947 would be even better.

[Ace Venom]

Double check with Doublex. SavoyBG is on the VC contributor's committee (and if he's intrerested in this one, IMO he is an active knowledgeable contributor in this project who deserves to be here).

I can certainly invite him to join seeing as we only had 12 of 19 report to vote. I would rather tally votes at even numbers.

--13 is a bad number for a committee that requires 75% agreement. You effectively push the percentage up by adding an odd number of voters.
--I would like to see the first Negro League election at the earliest possible date. 1949 would be okay. 1947 would be even better.

I hear you on the first point. Voter turnouts have been lower overall lately. 1947 actually sounds like a pretty good round year to get that ballot going because it would take place after the contributor's vote.

[jjpm74]

Adding him would make it a nice round 20.

[jjpm74]

--13 is a bad number for a committee that requires 75% agreement. You effectively push the percentage up by adding an odd number of voters.
--I would like to see the first Negro League election at the earliest possible date. 1949 would be okay. 1947 would be even better.

That's why on the neighboring contributor's VC, the number of votes a contributor needs is 9 whether we get 9 participants or 14 participants. Having a set number makes it a lot easier and flow better, IMO (here, you'd obviously not be able to do this with a 20 person committee; several of whom have been MIA for some time and several of whom don't frequent the site that often).

[SavoyBG]

13 ballots cast, but only 12 from members of the VC. SavoyBG is not on the list that DoubleX gave me.

acevenom
ag2004
blueblood
brad harris
captain cold nose
cowtipper
dgarza
DoubleX
freakshow
henrich
Jalbright
jjpm74
KCGhost
Leecemark
mwiggins
Paul Wendt
philkid3
pvnick
Windy City Fan

An absolute farce that only 12 of 19 voters can show up and vote.

[Ace Venom]

An absolute farce that only 12 of 19 voters can show up and vote.

I straddled it over the weekend with hopes that it would attract more of the voters, but I realize some people have been MIA or were busy for whatever reason. Some restructuring may be in order.

Before the 1947 election, I'm going to have a preliminary thread to help construct a master list of Negro League players. I can start getting a master list together, but it probably wouldn't be the most complete one. I have a set of rules ready, so feel free to opine so they can be modified if necessary.

BBF VC Progressive Election Negro League Committee (NLC)
1. Who is eligible?
-Players who had significant careers in the Negro Leagues who have retired five years prior to the first election are eligible for consideration.
-Players who have died during their wait for eligibility can have the waiting period waived. Also, a player who has had a significant career interrupted by death or sidelined by illness can be considered.
-Players can also have their five year wait waived if they are 45 at the time of the election cycle (age rule).
-Players who had some major/minor league experience prior to the gentleman's agreement can also be considered.
2. Rules for Election
-A candidate must receive 75% of the votes cast in order to be elected.
-Members of the VC can vote for however many candidates they wish.
-In the first election year (1947), no candidates are dropped from the final ballot and are free to be reconsidered equally with incoming candidates for the second year (1952). However, players who receive less than 2 votes in the 1952 election will be dropped from consideration on the final ballot. They will remain on the master list.

That's what I have. I'll start putting together master lists for 1947 when the time comes.

[Brad Harris]

2. Rules for Election
-A candidate must receive 75% of the votes cast in order to be elected.
-Members of the VC can vote for however many candidates they wish.
-In the first election year (1947), no candidates are dropped from the final ballot and are free to be reconsidered equally with incoming candidates for the second year (1952). However, players who receive less than 2 votes in the 1952 election will be dropped from consideration on the final ballot. They will remain on the master list.

If the eligible candidate pool is going to consist solely of "negro leaguers," then why are we going to be dropping players from consideration routinely? How many incoming candidates are there really going to be who meet the description here? Or will these candidates eventually merge with the MLB veterans?

[Ace Venom]

If the eligible candidate pool is going to consist solely of "negro leaguers," then why are we going to be dropping players from consideration routinely? How many incoming candidates are there really going to be who meet the description here? Or will these candidates eventually merge with the MLB veterans?

That may eventually happen. I may just let people pick any candidate from a master list for the first few elections. If it becomes too redundant, I may just merge the lists. I expect the first two or three classes to be large as certain players become eligible.

Breaking from 1945, the obvious elephant in the room is that Negro League talent declined after integration and essentially entered minor league status. The whole reason I want to do a separate ballot initially is to get the obvious best from this period into the progressive hall. You're looking at an election cycle of 1947, 1952 and 1957. By 1962, we should have most of this era covered with a few exceptions.

[jalbright]

I straddled it over the weekend with hopes that it would attract more of the voters, but I realize some people have been MIA or were busy for whatever reason. Some restructuring may be in order.

Before the 1947 election, I'm going to have a preliminary thread to help construct a master list of Negro League players. I can start getting a master list together, but it probably wouldn't be the most complete one. I have a set of rules ready, so feel free to opine so they can be modified if necessary.

BBF VC Progressive Election Negro League Committee (NLC)
1. Who is eligible?
-Players who had significant careers in the Negro Leagues who have retired five years prior to the first election are eligible for consideration.
-Players who have died during their wait for eligibility can have the waiting period waived. Also, a player who has had a significant career interrupted by death or sidelined by illness can be considered.
-Players can also have their five year wait waived if they are 45 at the time of the election cycle (age rule).
-Players who had some major/minor league experience prior to the gentleman's agreement can also be considered.
2. Rules for Election
-A candidate must receive 75% of the votes cast in order to be elected.
-Members of the VC can vote for however many candidates they wish.
-In the first election year (1947), no candidates are dropped from the final ballot and are free to be reconsidered equally with incoming candidates for the second year (1952). However, players who receive less than 2 votes in the 1952 election will be dropped from consideration on the final ballot. They will remain on the master list.

That's what I have. I'll start putting together master lists for 1947 when the time comes.

I'll give you what I've got now:

Eligible players in my project on or before 1947

Turkey Stearnes
John Beckwith
Judy Johnson
Mule Suttles
Jud Wilson
Dick Lundy
Andy Cooper
Oscar Charleston
Alejandro Oms
Bullet Joe Rogan
Cristobal Torriente
Dobie Moore
Smoky Joe Williams
Sol White
Frank Warfield
Ben Taylor
Louis Santop
Dick Redding
Spotswood Poles
Jose Mendez
Pop Lloyd
Rube Foster
Home Run Johnson
Pete Hill
Frank Grant

Those players who become eligible in my project after 1947 (some may make your 1947 list):

Cool Papa Bell
Biz Mackey
Willie Foster
Josh Gibson
Martin Dihigo
Perucho Cepeda
Buck Leonard
Hilton Smith
Ray Brown
Willie Wells
Satchel Paige
Quincy Trouppe
Bus Clarkson
Willard Brown
Larry Doby
Minnie Minoso
Jackie Robinson
Roy Campanella
Don Newcombe
Monte Irvin
Luke Easter

[Ace Venom]

I collected a much larger ballot than yours. I also wanted to make Josh Gibson eligible in 1947 due to the fact that he died that year. Once you start getting into Major League experience, they're going under regular ballot consideration. One of the provisions I'll be urging voters to do on the regular ballot is to take Negro League statistics into consideration (see Satchel Paige).

[jalbright]

I can understand a larger group, but these are the guys who either are in the HOF or garnered support here at BBF. If the list is larger than the 94 considered for the HOF in 2006 (plus those already in at that point), then I'd say your list is getting overly large (though there may be room for specific inclusions, like Will Jackman).

[Ace Venom]

My master list has 76 players total, which I think is pretty fair considering the span of time we're talking about. Obviously not all these players would garner support, so a preliminary voting round would probably be necessary. The master list would still be available for write-in votes.

[jalbright]

My master list has 76 players total, which I think is pretty fair considering the span of time we're talking about. Obviously not all these players would garner support, so a preliminary voting round would probably be necessary. The master list would still be available for write-in votes.

Would all of those 76 be eligible in 1947? My guess is there's a few who would miss that date. If there were 20 or so who wouldn't make that date, the lists would work--though perhaps the minimum vote would have to become the second election without more than x% or x votes.

[Ace Venom]

Would all of those 76 be eligible in 1947? My guess is there's a few who would miss that date. If there were 20 or so who wouldn't make that date, the lists would work--though perhaps the minimum vote would have to become the second election without more than x% or x votes.

All would be eligible, but you're free to double check my master list. I didn't take managerial or other contributions beyond playing beyond the playing career for consideration. Note that Josh Gibson falls under the death rule. Most of these people will be weeded out anyway.

Newton H. Allen
John Beckwith
Clifford Bell
Emmet Bowman
Oscar Charleston
Phillip Cockrell
Andy Cooper
Jimmie Crutchfield
Leon Daniels
Saul Davis
Felix Delgado
Bingo DeMoss
Lou Dials
William Dismukes
John Donaldson
William Drake
Rube Foster
Willie Foster
John “Bud” Fowler
Floyd “Jelly” Gardner
Josh Gibson
George Giles
Frank Grant
Arthur “Rats” Henderson
Pete Hill
Bill Holland
Bill Jackman
Fats Jenkins
George “Chappie” Johnson
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
William “Judy” Johnson
Milfred Laurent
Scrip Lee
Frank Leland
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Dave Malarcher
Oliver Marcell
Dan McClellan
Jose Mendez
Alonzo Mitchell
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Ted Page
Jap Payne
Bill Pettus
Bruce Petway
Spot Poles
Cumberland Posey
Richard “Cannonball Dick” Redding
William Robinson
Bullet Rogan
Merven “Red” Ryan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Clarence Smith
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Jake Stephens
George Stovey
Ben Taylor
C.I. Taylor
“Steel Arm Johnny” Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
Moses “Fleet” Walker
Frank Warfield
Chaney White
Sol White
Frank Wickware
Waibishaw Wiley
Clarence Williams
George Williams
Smokey Joe Williams
George Wilson
Jesse “Nip” Winters

[jalbright]

I can see where you're going with Quincy Trouppe and Satchel Paige. I'd like to see Bus Clarkson get a chance, though I doubt he'll garner much support outside of my own.

We also elected Perucho Cepeda (Orlando, the "Baby Bull"'s ("Peruchin") father). I'd put him in this list, but that's your call. If you'd rather he and others (like Omar Linares) who played exclusively outside USA based leagues all go when the Japanese are considered, I fully understand.

[Ace Venom]

It's a bit early in these cycles to even start considering NPB players. I've given thought to Mexican and Cuban League players, but it's a tough call right now considering some of the players on my list have spent time in the Cuban Leagues. It might be something worth discussing in the future, but not for 1947. I may have to do a preliminary round to trim down my master list to a workable final ballot. Those are a lot of names.

As far as Perucho Cepeda goes, he doesn't even fall under eligibility rules yet because he retired in 1950. Certainly these players will enter under consideration when we get to dealing with baseball leagues outside of the United States.

[jalbright]

I think Double X was thinking about the 80's (after Oh retired, maybe like 1985) at the earliest for the Japanese, maybe even as late as 2000. Someone could search the early threads for some indications he may have left in that regard.