This is our eleventh election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST May 8, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1945 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our eleventh election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST May 8, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1945 voters, are in this thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.
21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1945 are:
There are only two contributor candidates becoming eligible in 1946, Ed Bolden and Branch RickeyCode:Bush , Guy Fitzsimmons , Freddie Manush , Heinie Sewell , Luke Stearnes , Turkey Sukeforth , Clyde Wilson , Jud Wright , Glenn
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1944 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1944 election:
The 1944 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1944 election:Code:player…………….. votes points Hines , Paul 12 91 Suttles , Mule 12 87 Clarke , Fred 12 69 Barnes , Ross 9 68 Sisler , George 9 61 Jackson , Joe 6 57 Collins , Jimmy 9 56 Goslin , Goose 10 53 Magee , Sherry 8 51 Vance , Dazzy 9 42 Wheat , Zack 6 39 Radbourn , C 8 34 Start , Joe 3 23 Keeler , Willie 4 22 Traynor , Pie 4 22 Thompson , S 3 21 Bennett , C 3 20 Johnson , HR 3 20 Carey , Max 2 15 Waddell , Rube 4 15 Flick , Elmer 3 14 Groh , Heinie 3 14 Stovey , Harry 4 13 Lyons , Ted 3 12 McPhee , Bid 3 11 Sutton , Ezra 2 11 Grant , Frank 3 10 Joss , Addie 1 10 Terry , Bill 4 10 Maranville , R 3 9 Coveleski , S 2 8 Galvin , Pud 1 7 Chance , Frank 1 6 Caruthers , B 1 5 Gore , George 1 5 Pearce , Dickey 1 5 McGinnity , Joe 1 4 Browning , P 2 3 Roush , Edd 1 3 Tinker, Joe 1 3 Evers , Johnny 1 2 Jennings , H 1 2 Bresnahan , R 1 1 Duffy , Hugh 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:contributor………… votes points Richter , F 11 37 Klem, Bill…… 14 35 Cartwright , A 7 33 Landis , K 8 19 Barrow , Ed 8 18 Reach , A. J. 5 11 Commiskey , C 3 7 Pearce, Dickey 2 7 Spink, Albert 2 6 Clarke , Fred 1 4 Hanlon , Ned 1 4 Doubleday , A 1 3 Dunn , Jack 1 3 Taylor , C. I. 1 3 Conlan , C 1 2 Connolly , Tom 1 1 Selee , Frank 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall
Players
ContributorsCode:Pete Alexander Cap Anson Frank Baker Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Jesse Burkett Oscar Charleston John Clarkson Ty Cobb Eddie Collins Roger Connor Sam Crawford Bill Dahlen George Davis Ed Delahanty Buck Ewing Frankie Frisch Lou Gehrig Lefty Grove Billy Hamilton Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Rogers Hornsby Walter Johnson Tim Keefe King Kelly Nap LaJoie Pop Lloyd Christy Mathewson Kid Nichols Jim O'Rourke Eddie Plank Bullet Joe Rogan Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Louis Santop Tris Speaker Cristobal Torriente Honus Wagner Ed Walsh John M. Ward Deacon White Smoky Joe Williams George Wright Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Henry Chadwick Jim Creighton Rube Foster William Hulbert Ban Johnson Connie Mack John McGraw Al Spalding Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors (Please note John M. Ward has been elected as a player and thus is no longer eligible):Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Sparky Altrock , Nick Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Bancroft , Dave Barnes , Ross Barry , Jack Battin , Joe Beaumont , Ginger Beckley , Jake Bender , Chief Bennett , Charlie Benton , Larry Bergen , Marty Bigbee , Carson Bishop , Max Blades , Ray Blue , Lu Bluege , Ossie Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bottomley , Jim Bradley , Bill Breitenstein , Ted Bresnahan , Roger Browning , Pete Burns , George J. Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Cadore , Leon Camnitz , Howie Carey , Max Carrigan , Bill Caruthers , Bob Chance , Frank Chapman , Ray Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Clarke , Fred Coakley , Andy Collins , Jimmy Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Wilbur Coveleski , Stan Crandall , Doc Cravath , Gavvy Creighton , Jim Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Daubert , Jake Davis , Harry Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Earnshaw , George Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Jumbo Ens , Jewel Evers , Johnny Faber , Red Falkenberg , Cy Fitzsimmons , Freddie Fletcher , Art Flick , Elmer Fonseca , Lew Foster , Eddie Fraser , Chick Galvin , Pud Glasscock , Jack Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gore , George Goslin , Goose Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grant , Frank Grantham , George Griffith , Clark Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Groh , Heinie Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hargrave , Bubbles Harris , Bucky Herzog , Buck Hill , Pete Hinchman , Bill Hines , Paul Hooper , Harry Hoyt , Waite Huggins , Miller Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Joe Jennings , Hughie Johnson , Home Run Johnson , Judy Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Kamm , Willie Keeler , Willie Kelley , Joe Kerr , Dickie Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Kling , Johnny Knabe , Otto Kremer , Ray Lange , Bill Larkin , Henry Latham , Arlie Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Leever , Sam Lewis , Duffy Lobert , Hans Long , Herman Lowe , Bobby Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Lyons , Denny Lyons , Ted Magee , Sherry Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marquard , Rube Mathews , Bobby Mays , Carl McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCormick , Jim McGinnity , Joe McGowan , Bill McInnis , Stuffy McLean , Larry McManus , Marty McPhee , Bid McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Mendez , Jose Meusel , Bob Milan , Clyde Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Moore , Dobie Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mullane , Tony Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Nehf , Art O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oms , Alejandro O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Paskert , Dode Pearce , Dickey Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perkins , Cy Phillippe , Deacon Pike , Lip Pipp , Wally Poles , Spotswood Pruett , Hub Quinn , Jack Radbourn , Charlie Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Remsen , Jack Rice , Sam Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rixey , Eppa Robertson , Dave Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Ryan , Jimmy Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , Jack Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Seymour , Cy Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Sisler , George Smith , Earl Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Stahl , Jake Start , Joe Stearnes , Turkey Steinfeldt , Harry Stephenson , Riggs Stovey , Harry Street , Gabby Sukeforth , Clyde Suttles , Mule Sutton , Ezra Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tenney , Fred Terry , Bill Thomas , Ira Thompson , Sam Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Toney , Fred Traynor , Pie Turner , Terry Uhle , George Van Haltren , George Vance , Dazzy Veach , Bobby Waddell , Rube Walberg , Rube Wallace , Bobby Wambsganss , Bill Warfield , Frank Welch , Mickey Wheat , Zack White , Sol White , Will Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jimmie Wilson , Jud Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wright , Glenn Yerkes , Steve Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Bancroft , Frank Barrow , Ed Bolden, Ed Bulkely , Morgan Cartwright , Alexander Caylor , O. P. Chance , Frank Clarke , Fred Commiskey , Charlie Conlan , Charles Connolly , Tom Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dunn , Jack Elias , Al Munro Foster , John B. Fullerton , Hugh Gleason , Kid Griffith , Clark Hanlon , Ned Hillerich , John Huggins , Miller Jennings , Hughie Klem , Bill Landis , Kenesaw Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. McCarthy , Tommy Mendez , Jose Mills , A. G. Moran , Pat Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Norworth, Jack Osborn , Frank Reach , A. J. Rice, Grantland Richter , Francis Rickey, Branch Robinson , Wilbert Ruppert , Jacob Selee , Frank Shibe , Ben Spink, Albert Stallings , George Taylor , C. I. Thayer , Ernest Warfield , Frank White , Sol Wilkinson , J. L. Wilson , Horace
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot:
Players
1. Turkey Stearnes
2. Mule Suttles
3. Sherry Magee
4. Zack Wheat
5. Paul Hines
6. Jud Wilson
7. Fred Clarke
8. Dazzy Vance
9. Harry Stovey
10. Goose Goslin
11. Ted Lyons
12. Burleigh Grimes
Contributors
1. Bill Klem
2. Francis Richter
3. Ed Barrow
4. Kennesaw Landis
5. Branch Rickey
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Reminder #1: John Montgomery Ward has been elected as a player and thus is no longer eligible as a contributor.
Reminder #2: DO NOT credit Branch Rickey with success in breaching the major league color line until 1947. For this reason, while he's made my ballot for his work with the Cardinals and for preparing to make this move in 1946, he's currently #5. "If" Jackie Robinson succeeds in 1947, he'll move up if not elected, quite possibly (wink, wink) to #1.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Supreme Dictator For Life
1. Turkey Stearnes
2. Jimmy Collins
3. Max Carey
4. Dazzy Vance
5. Mule Suttles
6. Fred Clarke
7. Paul Hines
8. Jud Wilson
9. Sherry Magee
10. Goose Goslin
11. Ted Lyons
12. Zack Wheat
Contributors:
1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Francis Richter
3. Bill Klem
4. Ed Barrow
5. Kenesaw Landis
Sunday, May 14, 1978
Players
1. Joe Jackson
2. Fred Clarke
3. Zack Wheat
4. Goose Goslin
5. Sherry Magee
6. Willie Keeler
7. Sam Thompson
8. Elmer Flick
9. Bill Terry
10. Harry Stovey
11. Pete Browning
12. George Sisler
Contributors
1. F. Richter
2. B. Klem
3. A. Cartwright
4. E. Barrow
5. K. Landis
Quote
"A ballplayer has to just go out and be mean. You can't play half-heartedly. If you do, there's someone right over your shoulder that'll take your job away. If you don't do your job, what they're paying you for, why should they pay you? You just can't put in eight hours, that's what a lot of people don't realize about athletes. Very few people realize the pressure." Dave Kingman
Registered User
1. Turkey Stearnes
2. Jud Wilson
3. Ted Lyons
4. Paul Hines
5. Dazzy Vance
6. Elmer Flick
7. Ross Barnes
8. Grant "Home Run" Johnson
9. Stan Coveleski
10. Fred Clarke
11. Hughie Jennings
12. Charley "Old Hoss" Radbourn
2004 & 2007
Players:
1. Turkey Stearnes
2. Jud Wilson
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Mule Suttles
5. Ross Barnes
6. George Sisler
7. Sam Thompson
8. Old Hoss Radbourn
9. Paul Hines
10. Zack Wheat
11. Frank Grant
12. Dazzy Vance
Contributors:
1. Francis Richter
2. C. I. Taylor
3. Bill Klem
4. Ed Barrow
5. Branch Rickey
1. Sherry Magee
2. Pie Traynor
3. Heinie Groh
4. Max Carey
5. Frank Chance
6. Rabbit Marranville
7. Bid McPhee
8. Joe Tinker
9. Johnny Evers
10. Roger Bresnahan
11. George Sisler
12. Johnny Kling
1. Charles Comiskey
2. Ed Barrow
3. Jack Dunn
4. A.J. Reach
5. Bill Klem
Last edited by Ubiquitous; 04-26-2009 at 08:13 AM.
History Mod
1) Ross Barnes
2) Paul Hines
3) Fred Clarke
4) Turkey Stearnes
5) Jimmy Collins
6) Charlie Bennett
7) Dazzy Vance
8) Charlie Radbourne
9) Rube Waddell
10] Mule Suttles
11) Goose Goslin
12) Sherry Magee
1) Alexander Cartwright
2) Francis Richter
3) Dickey Pearce
4) Commissioner Landis
5) Bill Klem
Registered User
Players:
1. Mule Suttles
2. Turkey Stearnes
3. Ross Barnes
4. Ezra Sutton
5. Joe Start
6. Jimmy Collins
7. Paul Hines
8. Goose Goslin
9. Charlie Bennett
10. Rabbit Maranville
11. George Sisler
12. Jud Wilson
Contributors:
1. Francis Richter
2. C. I. Taylor
3. Bill Klem
4. Charley Comiskey
5. Al Reach
IMO, Branch Rickey, while eligible, hasn't made his most significant contribution to the game yet. I can't see a justification for voting for him before 1947 at the earliest. I'm not likely to add him to my ballot until 1950 and realistically, it's unlikely that the significance of his contribution was realized until the 1960s.
As far as Kenesaw Landis, it's hard for me to pinpoint his career and whether or not he deserves to be in the HoF. On one hand, he eliminated the issues associated with gambling and fixing games that had been a problem from the beginning of professional baseball. On the other hand, he also ruled with an iron fist for 25 years, blocked Bill Veeck from buying the Phillies when learning of his interest in integrating the team, and blocked any attempt to let a black ball player play in MLB during his lifetime. Does the positive outweigh the negatives in Landis' case?
Researcher/advocate/mod
Before 1947, Branch Rickey had:Originally Posted by jjpm74
1) signed George Sisler for the Browns;
2) developed the Cardinal farm system (and, more importantly, the whole notion of a "farm system"), which in turn lead to:
3) five pennants in nine seasons (1926-34), and added one more while Branch was with the team in 1942;
4) signed Jackie Robinson to a contract and had him play quite successfully for a top minor league Dodger team in Montreal. He had already signed some other Negro Leaguers as well (Newcombe and Campanella were in Nashua of the New England League).
I think the significance of his move was well grasped by 1950, as can be seen from the influx of talent by that time: Satchel Paige, Newcombe, Campanella, Jackie, Larry Doby, Monte Irvin, Minnie Minoso, Luke Easter and Hank Thompson had all played by then, and many more guys who had played in the Negro Leagues were in the minors. Also, Rickey had set up the Dodgers for their successes of the 50's plus helped them to their 1947 and 1949 pennants through Jackie and others.
====================================
As for Landis, his position on the color line is a negative factor, and his approach to the gambling scandal(s) have offended some. I think he cleaned the game up in that regard, which was essential for the good of the game, and he deserves a great deal of the credit for that. Landis was hardly unique in his approach to racial issues in his time, and while his position isn't to his credit, I think one must consider that issue in context in determining how much to dock him. He wasn't a roll back the clock reactionary, but rather a hold the line conservative-type in that regard. Standing up for the status quo of exclusion isn't a positive thing, to be sure, and I understand the motivation in lowering his stature for that failing. I just don't think his stance on race wipes out the positives.
Last edited by jalbright; 04-27-2009 at 06:40 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
carpe baseball
Players
1. Turkey Stearnes
2. Mule Suttles
3. Paul Hines
4. Goose Goslin
5. Sherry Magee
6. George Sisler
7. Fred Clarke
8. Edd Roush
9. Dazzy Vance
10. Heinie Groh
11. Zach Wheat
12. Jud Wilson
Contributors
1. Francis Richter
2. Ed Barrow
3. Alfred H. Spink
4. Bill Klem
5. Frank Selee
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
formerly Mr. Red
1) Turkey Stearnes
2) Sherry Magee
3) Mule Suttles
4) Zack Wheat
5) Heinie Groh
6) Goose Goslin
7) Dazzy Vance
8) Old Hoss Radbourne
9) Frank Chance
10) Fred Clarke
11) Johnny Evers
12) Pie Traynor
1) Charlie Comiskey
2) Bill Klem
3) Ed Barrow
4) A.J. Reach
5) Francis Richter
1. Mule Suttles
2. George Sisler
3. Turkey Stearnes
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Hoss Radbourne
6. Pie Traynor
7. Bob Caruthers
8. Goose Goslin
9. Joe Jackson
10. Bill Terry
11. Dazzy Vance
12. Covelski
1. AJ Reach
2. Albert Spink
3. Barrow
4. Landis
5. Klem
I know Barrow is not a new candidate, and Suttles was an omission on my part last vote.
Researcher/advocate/mod
We now have a quorum on both halves of the ballot.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
OSHA-certified Moderator
1. Turkey Stearnes
2. George Sisler
3. Goose Goslin
4. Mule Suttles
5. Willie Keeler
6. Charles Radbourne
7. Jud Wilson
8. Jimmy Collins
9. Paul Hines
10. Harry Stovey
11. Frank Grant
12. Pete Hill
Contributors
1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Bill Klem
4. Ed Barrow
5. A.J. Reach
Tom Tresh George Kell Mark Fidrych Bob Feller
Ernie Harwell Soupy Sales Alex Chilton Sparky Anderson
Joe Nuxhall Gary Carter MCA Emanuel Steward
Sonny Elliot Dave Brubeck Earl Weaver Stan Musial
Jonathan Winters Neil Armstrong Roger Ebert Anthony Zahler
Ray Manzarek
In looking at other ballots on the player side there's always a cringe along the lines of geez how could I not have that guy on my ballot. But then I go through my ballot or the "next year" do so and find there is noone that merits bumping (in my mind of course).
a posse ad esse
Players
1. Turkey Stearnes
2. Joe Jackson
3. Mule Suttles
4. Jud Wilson
5. Frank Grant
6. George Sisler
7. Rube Waddell
8. Sherry Magee
9. Stan Coveleski
10. Charlie Radbourn
11. Fred Clarke
12. Pie Traynor
Contributors
1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Fred Clarke
3. Bill Klem
4. Francis Richter
5. Ed Barrow
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
Registered User
Players
1. Sam Thompson
2. Joe Jackson
3. Ross Barnes
4. George Sisler
5. Goose Goslin
6. Harry Stovey
7. Willie Keeler
8. Bill Terry
9. Charley Radbourn
10. Pete Browning
11. Hugh Duffy
12. Turkey Stearnes
Contributors
1. Branch Rickey
2. Kenesaw Landis
3. Alexander Cartwright
4. Abner Doubleday
5. Charles Conlon
Team Veteran
Players:
1. Ross Barnes
2. Mule Suttles
3. Charlie Bennett
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Ezra Sutton
6. George Sisler
7. Bob Caruthers
8. Roger Bresnahan
9. Dickey Pearce
10. Turkey Stearnes
11. Paul Hines
12. Sherry Magee
Contributers:
1. Bill Klem
2. Francis Richter
3. O.P. Caylor
4. Ed Barrow
5. A.J. Reach
Last edited by bambambaseball; 04-30-2009 at 03:59 PM.
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