1972 Hall of Fame Voting

[J W]

I would also like to point out that even though he came close several times, Sandy Koufax only had one 20-win season in the DMCKL during his six-year prime. That's how hard it was to win games as a pitcher then. It's a big reason why Pascual got my vote. These days, with more teams, it's easier to pile up wins.

Jenkins is blowing the doors off everybody and looks to be our Walter Johnson! And with Seaver behind him, uy...

[mwiggins]

Jenkins is blowing the doors off everybody and looks to be our Walter Johnson! And with Seaver behind him, uy...

Just think if those guys were on the same team...

[J W]

I don't have to. We face them all the time in our division.

Ooo, ooo, do Horlen next! Also I'd like to see how Juan Marichal and Bob Gibson are doing. Marichal should be up there; Gibson was kind of a flop through the 60s.

[mwiggins]

I don't have to. We face them all the time in our division.

Ooo, ooo, do Horlen next! Also I'd like to see how Juan Marichal and Bob Gibson are doing. Marichal should be up there; Gibson was kind of a flop through the 60s.

I've got Marichal almost done. I just need to track down were "EH" (El Halo I presume) played in 1961-1964 and where "PP" (Redbirds I'm guessing?) played in 1965. Unless there's some major park effect action during his early career, he looks to be somewhere just below 120 ERA+.

[mwiggins]

Since you mentioned Seaver...I'll work on Horlen next.

Tom Seaver										
										
Team	Year	ERA	ERA+	W	L	INN	S	G	GS	CG
Lew	1967	3.62	111	19	6	236	0	35	35	8
Lew	1968	3.61	108	18	10	282	0	42	42	6
Lew	1969	2.99	143	21	11	310	0	41	41	15
Lew	1970	2.87	152	23	10	348	0	42	42	21
Lew	1971	2.56	161	26	12	323	0	44	44	16
		3.09	137	107	49	1499	0	204	204	66

[mwiggins]

Joe Horlen										
										
Team	Year	ERA	ERA+	W	L	INN	S	G	GS	CG
JW	1963	4.77	78	6	4	54.2	1	32	5	1
JW	1964	2.48	164	23	4	243.1	0	34	34	3
JW	1965	3.03	120	18	8	267.2	0	36	36	12
JW	1966	4.02	92	14	13	235.1	0	36	36	3
JW	1967	2.50	149	21	10	291.1	0	37	37	14
JW	1968	4.78	81	12	14	197.2	0	36	36	4
JW	1969	4.06	106	14	10	230.1	0	36	36	2
JW	1970	5.40	74	0	1	5	0	1	1	0
JW	1971	0.00	0	0	0	1	0	1	0	0
		3.45	120	108	64	1524	1	249	221	39

[J W]

OK, so to recap so far:

Koufax - 154*
Jenkins - 143
Seaver - 137
Bunning - 123*
Horlen - 120
Chance - 117*
Pascual - 117*

...with Marichal, Peters, Tiant, Gibson, McDowell & Drysdale to go among qualifiers.

* denotes finished career

[mwiggins]

...with Marichal, Peters, Tiant, Gibson, McDowell & Drysdale to go among qualifiers.

* denotes finished career

Gibson's non-park adjusted ERA+ is 114. I just need to track down where the Joes played before they moved to Cleveland, when they moved, and where the Nails(?) played in 61-63.

Drysdale's non-parked adjusted ERA+ is 106. I need the EH's park from 61-64, DC's park from 65-66, and KG's park from 1967.

Marichal's done, as soon as I track down where the Legends played 61-64. With his non-Legends season's park adjusted, his ERA+ is 119.

[leecemark]

--The Legends early years were at Forbes Field. KG 67 would be Fenway. PP was the shorted lived Papi's Pirates who played at Busch Staidum. Nails played at Connie Mack Stadium. The rest I'll have to check later. I'm running late for work now.

[mwiggins]

Thanks Mark!

Here's Marichal, then. He wasn't too bad in '66...

Juan Marichal										
										
Team	Year	ERA	ERA+	W	L	INN	S	G	GS	CG
LEW	1961	3.71	130	13	9	221	0	33	33	7
LEW	1962	4.33	107	12	14	239	0	39	39	6
LEW	1963	3.73	106	14	12	255	0	38	38	9
LEW	1964	5.79	69	1	4	45	0	7	7	0
PP	1964	4.06	108	13	12	197	0	31	30	9
TOT	1964	4.38	101	14	16	242	0	38	37	9
PP	1965	2.78	140	19	13	291	0	37	37	24
PP	1966	2.06	182	4	1	83	0	10	10	4
LM	1966	1.87	205	16	5	216	0	26	26	16
TOT	1966	1.92	198	20	6	299	0	36	36	20
LM	1967	4.87	78	11	10	194	0	32	32	5
LM	1968	4.74	84	11	15	246	0	39	39	12
LM 	1969	3.45	125	25	11	316	0	43	43	24
LM	1970	3.60	122	21	7	285	0	41	41	12
LM	1971	3.96	104	18	12	288	0	41	41	6
		3.69	120	178	125	2877	0	417	416	134

[mwiggins]

Gary Peters											
											
Team	Year	ERA	ERA+	W	L	INN	S	G	GS	CG	ER
LM	1963	2.77	148	16	7	217	0	31	31	7	67
LM	1964	2.92	130	21	7	256	0	36	36	7	83
LM	1966	3.05	125	20	10	221	0	35	35	2	75
LM	1967	2.59	147	23	5	277	0	36	36	12	80
LM	1968	5.49	73	4	0	41	2	28	0	0	25
WCF	1969	6.22	63	2	2	46	0	13	7	0	32
		3.08	132	86	31	1058	2	179	145	28	362

* Now with correct home parks in 1963 & 1964

[catcher24]

--Bunning was an established American League star and the first pitcher selected by the Hard Cider in the start up draft.

Well, actually he was drafted by the Legends, who traded him to the Hard Cider for one Willie McCovey - a trade that seems to have worked out well for both the Hard Cider and Legends over the ensuing decade.

Though I do wonder why the league ERA's varied so much during the 60's.

Part of the extremely high ERAs in the first three seasons was the existence of the doormat teams. I think that were we to redraft in 1961 with all human owners the offensive numbers and high ERAs of 1961 and 1962 would both be significantly reduced. Then with the first expansion in 1964 and all human run teams, things settled out somewhat. In my limited DM experience, there is a huge difference between a computer run team and a human run team. That also helps to explain why I am not likely to ever support Jim Gentile for the CKL HOF. Mark knows that I look upon all those 1961 (and 1962) records with a great deal of skepticism because of the doormat teams. In my own humble opinion, Willie Stargell produced the greatest offensive (slugging wise) season in CKL history last season.

[catcher24]

Mark - Thanks for figuring those ERA+ numbers. That really helps to put certain guys into more proper perspective. I'd like to know how to do that if you feel like having a class sometime....

I'm also curious how difficult it would be to figure OPS+. I'd like to compare Gentile's 1961 season with Stargell's 1971 season.

[mwiggins]

Mark - Thanks for figuring those ERA+ numbers. That really helps to put certain guys into more proper perspective. I'd like to know how to do that if you feel like having a class sometime....

I'm also curious how difficult it would be to figure OPS+. I'd like to compare Gentile's 1961 season with Stargell's 1971 season.

OPS+ is just two steps vs. ERA+'s one, but it's the same principal. One year is pretty quick. Gentile's '61 was 248. Stargell's '71 was 210

ERA+ is just the league ERA multiplied by a park factor (in this case, BBRef's 1-year Pitching Factor/100) divided by the players ERA. Then multiply the total by 100. For example, take Tom Seaver's 1971. The league ERA was 4.29. Shea's Park Factor was 96. Using that makes his park-adjusted league ERA 4.12. The divide 4.12/2.56 to get 1.61. Multiply by 100 to get 161, which is how we're used to seeing it on BBRef.

[catcher24]

Interesting that Bunning had as many complete games in one season (21 in 1967) as Pascual had in his entire CKL career. It's true that Mark has always had a quick hook, though, due to his potent bullpens over the years. But to me that gives Bunning a bit of an edge, even if everything else was equal.

A couple of other stats:
Shutouts: Bunning, 16; Chance, 13; Pascual, 6
Strikeouts: Bunning, 1489; Chance, 1102; Pascual, 1080
WHIP: Bunning, 1.15; Chance, 1.25; Pascual, 1.31
K/BB: Bunning, 2.99/1; 1.94/1; Pascual, 2.32
K/9: Bunning, 6.5; Chance, 5.5; Pascual, 6.4
Component ERA: Bunning, 2.97; Chance, 3.35; Pascual, 3.74
Opponent OPS: Bunning,.644; Chance,.669; Pascual, .707

Based on everything, Bunning is an easy choice for me and gets my vote. Pascual and Chance are very close - flip a coin between them. I would probably favor Chance over Pascual based on more innings pitched, but I ended up not voting for either. I could possibly be persuaded in the future, and in fact if Pascual gains election, Chance almost has to go in too.

[catcher24]

OK, thanks for that quick lesson Mark. I've copied that down and will use it in the future.

Looks like I'd better get started on a plaque for James Bunning for the CKL HOF. Congratulations, Jim!!

WOW! 12 out of 14 owners have voted so far. That's fantastic!

[mwiggins]

Sam McDowell											
											
Team	Year	ERA	ERA+	W	L	INN	S	G	GS	CG	ER
JW	1964	4.11	99	12	8	140	0	24	24	2	64
JW	1965	3.05	120	15	12	269	0	36	36	12	91
JW	1966	3.45	108	10	5	209	0	37	37	3	80
JW	1968	2.90	133	17	13	267	0	37	37	11	86
JW	1969	3.13	138	22	10	284	0	40	40	12	99
JW	1970	2.69	148	26	12	311	0	41	41	22	93
JW	1971	4.76	90	12	13	180	0	33	33	3	95
		3.30	124	114	73	1660	0	248	248	65	608

[leecemark]

Mark, you have Gary Peters listed with Lew in 1963-4. He was actually with the Knights both of those years - and every year he played prior to the 1969 expansion.

[mwiggins]

The other pitcher nominated for the Hall last time...

Stu Miller										
										
Team	Year	ERA	ERA+	W	L	INN	S	G	GS	CG
538	1961	3.38	144	5	6	114.2	21	80	0	0
538	1962	5.45	85	7	12	71	19	57	0	0
538	1963	5.15	80	3	8	78.2	21	77	0	0
Mac	1964	2.51	159	9	0	64.2	2	48	0	0
Mac	1965	1.42	257	9	4	120	23	80	0	0
Mac	1966	2.62	135	8	3	99.2	13	77	0	0
Mac	1967	2.53	144	6	3	64	1	35	0	0
		3.16	151	47	36	612.2	100	454	0	0

[Windy City Fan]

How's Don Sutton looking so far?

[J W]

New recap:

SP
Koufax - 154*
Jenkins - 143
Seaver - 137
Peters - 132
McDowell - 124
Bunning - 123*
Tiant - 123
Marichal - 120
Horlen - 120
Chance - 117*
Pascual - 117*

...with Gibson & Drysdale to go among qualifiers.

RP
Miller - 151*


* denotes finished career

[mwiggins]

How's Don Sutton looking so far?

I've got Sutton at 115 right now. But I still need to track down what parks WSP played at in 1966 & 1967, and where "AC" played at in 1968 - so his still isn't final.

Since he's joined the Thunder, though, his ERA+'s have been:
1969-113
1970-125
1971-130

[Windy City Fan]

I was looking at Sutton's numbers and despite never having a full time season ERA over 3.50, he's got a losing record at 70 - 73. He must of had horrible run support through his career. I'm curious what it is.

[leecemark]

--Sutton's career run support is 4.3. I noticed Horlen when I was checking Chance the other day. He is only at 4.6 (Chance 4.5). The Skipjacks were one of the best teams in the league through most of both careers and had some offensive powerhouses. Surprising that those guys didn't get more support. Sam McDowell shared the rotation with them most seasons and is at 5.3.

[leecemark]

I've got Sutton at 115 right now. But I still need to track down what parks WSP played at in 1966 & 1967, and where "AC" played at in 1968 - so his still isn't final.

Since he's joined the Thunder, though, his ERA+'s have been:
1969-113
1970-125
1971-130

--The Wasp Stingers played in KC Municipal. KC gave up plenty of hits - but was the most difficult HR park in CKL history, with rates in the 40s. The AC Hornets (same team with new, short lived owner) moved to Dodger Stadium in 1968. DS played as an extreme pitchers park that year - as most - with a 90 singles rate and 60 HR rate.